Empyrion: Galactic Survival - First Impressions

[Darkfyre99]

Maybe a video of one of yours, showing the handling, give me an idea of how you imagine your ships weight.

You know, this is NOT how I pictured this evening to go. I just started a new game (see here), so I don't have any ships to show you. So I made a quick one in creative... and now nvidia isn't letting me record for some reason, and keeps crashing when it attempts to do an update. After wasting way too much time trouble shooting that, I finally remembered Window's also had a video recorder. Of course, that took time to figure out as well.

At any rate, here's what I'm talking about. The ship's carrying about 12 tons of cargo, or about 150% of its own weight.

Source: https://youtu.be/vLrX4lrMBaY


In survival games, I'm very miserly about resources, because they take so much effort to get. I don't use six thrusters, where two will do the job. Yes, it may be nice to have 20 m/s² of acceleration in my maneuvering thrusters, but not at the expense of another piece of critical equipment, or another expedition to acquire fuel. Heck, when the game I'm currently playing reaches that stage, I'm planning on putting a sensor in my bedroom so I have the option of putting my base into low-power mode when I'm in there, so that when I'm asleep, it isn't wasting battery power.

 

[Space Menace]

I appreciate you taking that time to make a video. I can see now what you think weight is in Empyrion. For me it looks o.k. flying and stopping more slowly in any direction, although maybe still too quickly for me. However the maneuverability of the ship gives the opposite impression, ship seems much lighter.
I had that problem with the CVX Revenant from the workshop in Empyrion. It seems to handle similar to yours there. Takes that little extra time to slow down (not much mind). But again the turning, rolling and so on, doesn't match the little extra time it takes to stop. It turns, rolls and feels like a light ship, infact more like a fighter than a capital ship.
However I appreciate your ship there seems much smaller than the one I mention. So I would imagine when you build larger the turning and so on is better (heavier).
I could be missing something in Empyrion design that gives that really heavy feel. But I'm so familiar with designing/building in S/engineers, it gives me exactly what I'm looking for.
Not to say you couldn't get that from Empyrion, just that I didn't manage it when building in the game in the earlier days or indeed today.

Thanks though. I really do appreciate the video and time you've taken.

When I build a ship that is heavy, it will be heavy doing everything, laboured infact, turning, dipping down/tilting up, rolling, and take up and slow down will be very pronounced in all directions, ie. much slower (think oil tanker). Just how I see weight in S/engineers, which I can't get in Empyrion. I've tried in the past in Empyrion, but as said its been a while since I bothered building in Empyrion owing to the physics, I just don't like them much. Though things may have changed and I could be missing something.
I'm really talking larger ships.

I'll return the kind gesture and make a video and put it in the Space Engineers thread, to show you how I see heavy in S/engineers, soon.

Anytime you get a really large ship planetside, I would love to see a take off and landing.

Thanks again.

 

[Old Duck]

Yeah, I prefer it.

It interests me how players play. I don't go for pure survival from point zero in S/engineers.
I'll build in creative then transfer over the build to survival. I find it quite challenging to see how long I can run a larger and heavier type ship. What with all the resources required to keep it going.
Its good fun, a very lonely space environment that I really enjoy. Running around keeping things going as the ship travels onwards.
I use to swap designs with a mate of mine over many years, we sort of had a friendly competition going.

I'm a bit different in that I design my more complex ships (like my Krait) in creative, make a blueprint, and then use a projector as a template to manually build those ships in survival mode. The building is just as much fun as the original design for me, and more often than not I find ways of tweaking the design in the process.

I also wish SE was less lonely. I don't want aliens every five feet like NMS, but it would be nice if I could run into an NPCHARACTER in the existing stations and outposts and ships.

As for exploration, I do explore in SE, but I think EGS is superior with its planetary, solar, and galactic maps. I also like EGS planets - more variety, WATER, animals, etc. Which is why I'm constantly torn between the two games. I suppose one of the reasons I keep landing on SE is that Elite also allows me to explore on some level, scratching that itch.

 

[Space Menace]

I'm a bit different in that I design my more complex ships (like my Krait) in creative, make a blueprint, and then use a projector as a template to manually build those ships in survival mode. The building is just as much fun as the original design for me, and more often than not I find ways of tweaking the design in the process.

I also wish SE was less lonely. I don't want aliens every five feet like NMS, but it would be nice if I could run into an NPCHARACTER in the existing stations and outposts and ships.

As for exploration, I do explore in SE, but I think EGS is superior with its planetary, solar, and galactic maps. I also like EGS planets - more variety, WATER, animals, etc. Which is why I'm constantly torn between the two games. I suppose one of the reasons I keep landing on SE is that Elite also allows me to explore on some level, scratching that itch.

Yeah your spot on. I wish Elite, Empyrion & S/engineers could maybe book a room for a threesome, see if we get a child from it. Could be interesting.

Empyrion have got the galaxy now which is a big plus for them, a very big plus indeed. Also as you say water (what a shame Keen didn't). I don't really care to much about animals, but yes having npc's in S/engineers would be really good. Although I do like lonely play.

It's a case of whilst playing one, I'll sometimes wish I were playing the other, but that happens vice-versa to. Just need that middle ground between them with a sprinkle of Elite dust and hey presto.

 

[Darkfyre99]

I appreciate you taking that time to make a video. I can see now what you think weight is in Empyrion. For me it looks o.k. flying and stopping more slowly in any direction, although maybe still too quickly for me. However the maneuverability of the ship gives the opposite impression, ship seems much lighter.

I think I figured out what you mean by "flight model." Especially in games like KSP, EGS and SE, a flight model for me isn't about how a ship feels, but about whether the various forces acting on a ship are accurately modeled. In EGS and KSP, torque from thrusters is modeled. In SE, it's not.

If I might quote your post from the SE thread:

A landing and take off. The ship is reasonably heavy. It snowed when I arrived, but by the time I left it was sunshine and clear.

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugcLi2cRMWk

The hydrogen thruster placement of your ship just looks plain wrong to me. Between the design of the hull (it's back heavy), and the placement of the thrusters towards the front, this ship should be pitching up something fierce. In either Kerbal Space Program or EGS, it would.

You mentioned how the ship I quickly bashed together was rather maneuverable. This was a deliberate design decision by me. I mentioned at one point, "I don't use six thrusters, where two will do the job." Technically, the ship only needs one thruster in each of the cardinal directions for translation control, as long as they're at the center of mass, but it won't be able to turn very fast, if at all. Two thrusters in each of the cardinal directions, as far from the center of gravity as possible, allows for translational as well as rotational control.

You might not have noticed it, primarily because I‘m in the habit of compensating for it, but the ship I built pitches up faster than it pitches down. This is because the second dorsal thruster is right behind the cockpit, rather than the front of the ship. Normally, I compensate for this by using three ventral thrusters, one at the front, two in the back, which also helps to counteract the force of gravity, allowing it to hover while fully loaded. I forgot this time, and put the three in-line along the ship’s spine. That’s also why it can’t roll. I didn’t notice that until I got into space, because the wings I attached do provide for some roll.

There’s two more reasons why ships in EGS “feel” lighter than ships in SE. The first is that there actually are light weight materials in EGS to make ships from. They aren’t as durable, but for non-combat ships, you don’t really need durability. The second is that thrusters in EGS are much more powerful than SE’s. The weakest thruster in EGS is five times stronger than its counterpart in SE’st, and is almost as powerful (75kN vs 96kN) than SE’s strongest counterpart. Thruster strength only goes up from there.

edited to fix some ambiguity

 

[Space Menace]

I think I figured out what you mean by "flight model." Especially in games like KSP, EGS and SE, a flight model for me isn't about how a ship feels, but about whether the various forces acting on a ship are accurately modeled. In EGS and KSP, torque from thrusters is modeled. In SE, it's not.

If I might quote your post from the SE thread:



The hydrogen thruster placement of your ship just looks plain wrong to me. Between the design of the hull (it's back heavy), and the placement of the thrusters towards the front, this ship should be pitching up something fierce. In either Kerbal Space Program or EGS, it would.

You mentioned how the ship I quickly bashed together was rather maneuverable. This was a deliberate design decision by me. I mentioned at one point, "I don't use six thrusters, where two will do the job." Technically, the ship only needs one thruster in each of the cardinal directions for translation control, as long as they're at the center of mass, but it won't be able to turn very fast, if at all. Two thrusters in each of the cardinal directions, as far from the center of gravity as possible, allows for translational as well as rotational control.

You might not have noticed it, primarily because I‘m in the habit of compensating for it, but the ship I built pitches up faster than it pitches down. This is because the second dorsal thruster is right behind the cockpit, rather than the front of the ship. Normally, I compensate for this by using three ventral thrusters, one at the front, two in the back, which also helps to counteract the force of gravity, allowing it to hover while fully loaded. I forgot this time, and put the three in-line along the ship’s spine. That’s also why it can’t roll. I didn’t notice that until I got into space, because the wings I attached do provide for some roll.

There’s two more reasons why ships in EGS “feel” lighter than ships in SE. The first is that there actually are light weight materials in EGS to make ships from. They aren’t as durable, but for non-combat ships, you don’t really need durability. The second is that thrusters in EGS are much more powerful than SE’s. The weakest thruster in EGS is five times stronger than its counterpart in SE’st, and is almost as powerful (75kN vs 96kN) than SE’s strongest counterpart. Thruster strength only goes up from there.

edited to fix some ambiguity

Ah I see, that is where we differ, mine is all about the feel of the ship. It has to feel/act how I would expect it to in space. Of course none of us know what they would really act like, these large ships, but its all interpretation of the player building.

The large ship I put on in the other thread isn't really a planetside ship, it would be more space only (quarter of a km long). But the fact it lands and takes off so well is down to its good design.

I don't agree with you about Empyrion physics, especially the planet gravity and so on. For me it just doesn't feel right. But that could be because I've spent the majority of the time in S/engineers. So we'll have to agree to differ on both games physics.
Your ship, which I understand was rushed, wouldn't feel right to me and I don't suppose mine would to you. Just different interpretations.

 

[Old Duck]

Ah I see, that is where we differ, mine is all about the feel of the ship. It has to feel/act how I would expect it to in space. Of course none of us know what they would really act like, these large ships, but its all interpretation of the player building.

The large ship I put on in the other thread isn't really a planetside ship, it would be more space only (quarter of a km long). But the fact it lands and takes off so well is down to its good design.

I don't agree with you about Empyrion physics, especially the planet gravity and so on. For me it just doesn't feel right. But that could be because I've spent the majority of the time in S/engineers. So we'll have to agree to differ on both games physics.
Your ship, which I understand was rushed, wouldn't feel right to me and I don't suppose mine would to you. Just different interpretations.

I've not been bothered by SE's disregard to COM when it comes to thruster placement, mainly because I build my ships with this in mind regardless, so there's nothing immersion-breaking for me. Also, ships in SE have heavy-duty gyroscopes, which introduces some interesting "side effects" -

(replace string with thruster)

 

[Space Menace]

I've not been bothered by SE's disregard to COM when it comes to thruster placement, mainly because I build my ships with this in mind regardless, so there's nothing immersion-breaking for me. Also, ships in SE have heavy-duty gyroscopes, which introduces some interesting "side effects" -

(replace string with thruster)

Yeah, I prefer the S/engineers physics, they suit my way of building. Coming from boat design and building irl it feels far better with those physics as opposed to Empyrion. They use S/engineers for teaching I believe to, which I can understand.

 

[Darkfyre99]

Yeah, I prefer the S/engineers physics, they suit my way of building. Coming from boat design and building irl it feels far better with those physics as opposed to Empyrion. They use S/engineers for teaching I believe to, which I can understand.

Kerbal Space Program is my benchmark for realistic physics in this kind of game, and I know it’s used in schools for that purpose. I hope to god SE isn’t used for teaching, because it isn’t very realistic, especially for a game that focuses on engineering. Which is odd, because it’s wheeled vehicle physics is very good.

EGS isn’t much better, but at least it acknowledges that torque actually exists.

 

[Old Duck]

Kerbal Space Program is my benchmark for realistic physics in this kind of game,

Another game in my library I've yet to try out. I think one of the reasons I stick with SE is because it is what I know. All these games have a learning curve to them, and I can only handle one major curve at a time.

 

[Darkfyre99]

Another game in my library I've yet to try out. I think one of the reasons I stick with SE is because it is what I know. All these games have a learning curve to them, and I can only handle one major curve at a time.

Yeah. There’s a learning curve, and then there’s a learning cliff. KSP is one of those rare games where plummeting off said cliff, flapping your arms in a vain attempt to fly, is actually fun. It’s a blast, sometimes literally. Because as you learn how things work in the game, you also learning new, and more importantly accurate, information.

 

[Space Menace]

Kerbal Space Program is my benchmark for realistic physics in this kind of game, and I know it’s used in schools for that purpose. I hope to god SE isn’t used for teaching, because it isn’t very realistic, especially for a game that focuses on engineering. Which is odd, because it’s wheeled vehicle physics is very good.

EGS isn’t much better, but at least it acknowledges that torque actually exists.

Yeah apparently S/engineers was used for some schools and colleges, plus an article with the nspe and some other journals. I remember it on Keen forums a number of years back. But they would have only been looking at the parts of the game that interested them.
Your right ksp is a great game, so is orbiter, rouge system (if it were finished) etc. But these are more science based, not sci-fi.

I wanted sci-fi, build/engineer projects that let my imagination run wild and for me the best of those is S/engineers. Empyrion is a good game, I backed it early in the failed kickstarter, then straight away via their site when they got the pay function working.
But it isn't as good as S/engineers for me, just my opinion. It doesn't allow for things I can build in engineers, that is why I prefer it. You prefer Empyrion, that's fine it's a very good survival game, but it doesn't scratch my itch, thats all.

I am hoping ksp2 is going to be more towards the sci-fi side even though keeping with the science. That could be a great blend, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

 

[mdsilva]

So far I'm enjoying this alpha 12 ...

The only thing that is really bad is the transition between planet-space and space-planet. It is not visually smooth and continuous.

Spoiler: IMAGES

 

[Space Menace]

This seems like the forums official Empyrion thread, so I'll put this and any other info I do about Empyrion here I guess.

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fdiqg-pRIu4


So I spent a few hours yesterday getting familiar with Empyrion again. Not built anything in there for over two years. I decided to get a comparison to a ship I use in Space Engineers, so I built a near, not like for like, but near same type. I altered here and there but both ships weigh more or less the same and are roughly the same length, well almost. The Empyrion ship is more of a sailaway than a fitted ship. But everything is in there to fly and so on.

Handling wise though, the two games are very different indeed. The challenge of a good game, I find, is in Space Engineers at present. Empyrion still feels wrong flying, weight, feel, build, maintaining, planning etc wise, for me, others can disagree.
However I enjoyed my time in Empyrion and hadn't really realised just how much variety there was in blocks, textures and so on. It really beats Engineers in that regard now.
Also the galaxy that is now in Empyrion does make this a game to take note of, plus its still just Alpha whereas Engineers is a released game (although updated fairly regularly).
If Eleon can get the flight model and planet gravity (or lack of it) sorted, then Empyrion could prove better in the long run than Engineers. But they also need to stop using so much magic in the game. I like to pipe oxygen and fuel to the respected items, not just have it happen because I simply place a block.
I also like the landing of a larger ship planetside to be a challenge not just sit it down the easy way as with Empyrion at present. But I have a feeling Eleon will do this over time, they have slowly crept upto Engineers, should they make the flying side feel much better, they will overtake Engineers.

I'll go with the game that feels like a challenge and has the better space travel, which at this moment in time, for me, is Space Engineers.
But Empyrion is catching up, that is for sure.

Empyrion needs more control over engines, batteries (power), oxygen, maneuvering etc. It needs gyroscopes, piping to items, the ability to walk around the ship whilst in flight for maintainence. The planets gravity and indeed travel is odd, but not to bad. Place a waypoint and travel around a planet, they are small to, you get half way and the game swings you around for some reason, just the way they have done surfaces I guess, but it is odd. But much better than the false walls we had earlier in the game.

I haven't tried a lot of the blocks in Empyrion yet, but will be doing like for like things as I go along. Mainly because I did enjoy Empyrions building process, although took me a little time to get back into.
There are some really nice features in Empyrion, like painting each side of a block a different colour or texture. The variety of block shapes is great to, much better than Engineers.

Overall I see Empyrion taking on Engineers and provided they do some changes to make the game more of a challenge. Then it could be the space block building game to go for. But that will be some way down the road.
But I have time.

Survival 'life' wise, Empyrion wins out. However space travel survival, Engineers easily wins out. There is much more to do ship wise in Engineers whilst surviving and travelling. Plus your always in the same space in Engineers, that means a lot. All planets, although a lot less activity wise than Empyrion, Engineers portray gravity much better, also atmospheric flight in Engineers is better. Topping on the cake would be space to planet transitions are seamless in engineers.

 

[Old Duck]

I notice EGS is getting a lot of updates lately (I have it installed via Steam). This is a good sign IMO, as it means it is being actively developed.

 

[Mole HD]

So far I'm enjoying this alpha 12 ...

The only thing that is really bad is the transition between planet-space and space-planet. It is not visually smooth and continuous.

Spoiler: IMAGES

Why is there a Star Citizen Carrack in one of the screenies?

Spoiler: Carrack

 

[mdsilva]

Why is there a Star Citizen Carrack in one of the screenies?

Spoiler: Carrack

Someone paid attention. How nice!

I'm not denying that love her

 

[Darkfyre99]

I notice EGS is getting a lot of updates lately (I have it installed via Steam). This is a good sign IMO, as it means it is being actively developed.

They seem to be gearing up for their official release at the beginning of August. Like many, I feel it’s a bit pre-mature. They really need someone with a solid grasp of English to redo their dialog. Google Translate is fine for an Alpha, but it’s not going be given a free pass in a released version. Crouch is still missing, and it feels like there’s too many gaps in their assembler recipes. Finally, the “factory” is still an obvious place holder, and its way too close to “summon any object” for my tastes.

That being said, the current build is very stable IME, and it’s a much more complete game than its direct competitors in my opinion. It just feels like they’re rushing it out the door because of Dual Universe, which isn’t a direct competitor, anymore than an MMO is a direct competitor for a single-player game from the same genre.

 

[Space Menace]

I've spent the last few days getting familiar with Empyrion again.
I must say they have done a good job with the game. Last time I was in for any length of time was 2017, wasn't in it long then either.
But its come on a very long way, more than I thought it had. I am enjoying looking around building my ship out a little more and just experimenting.

The fact they're not going to Beta and straight to release is a little concerning. But they have said that the game will still be developed and its just their way of doing it. Its been 5yrs and the initial investment in the game I made, could be paying off. Finally.

 

[Space Menace]

I'm backtracking on Empyrion a little more again. This is from a Space Engineers fans point of view (me).

Having played the game now fairly solidly for a few days now (many hours), I'm surprised at how much they have put in since I last played some years back, plus how good it is.

So in brief, you can fly the Galaxy, no skybox, go/jump to any star you see and enter the system. There is a very good map system to use, 'Galaxy', 'System', 'Planet' and a kind of 'Proximity' map.
Scanners, although in this game they are called 'Detectors', are very good and give helpful info of your surroundings upto around 2km planet and 20km space. Getting around is easy but can be very dangerous.
Who knew (err, probably all the regular players), they have heat, radiation, cold, hunger, illness (eat the wrong food and you'll need a tablet), plus a few other things that will happily kill or injure you. Even engines onboard ship will hurt you when your too close to them if not insulated against. You have to be aware of all these things, which I find delightful in a game, especially for ship design. The player has to take so much into consideration.

It feels as though your living in the game, that is quite hard to find in many games. Not in a rushed way, but at your own speed, relaxed or anxious, its upto you. I don't follow story lines much, so play sandbox mode but in survival once your ready.
Choosing how to play the game is also a breath of fresh air. I don't like starting from a tin can, rock bottom survival. I prefer starting with a prepared ship, then put that over to survival and play the game from there.

So I built a ship, not finished but on its way and intend to put this into survival for long term use once finished. Until then I keep testing by popping in and out from Creative to Survival, you can do this using the dev console (ctrl + F1, then write 'changemode'). Also you can change back that way to.
This means I'm starting in a position more like X4 or Elite and so on. But the big thing I find as in Space Engineers, you can do this in a ship of your own design, which is usually much more challenging, fun and rewarding.
Once your in survival you can build your empire within that mode from your chosen start position, but at least you have your own ship to do it in.

There are a number of factions, mostly friendly a couple not so friendly. Trading is something I haven't done yet but I intend to give it a go once in survival for good.
Landing on planets, moons and so on. Although this is not seamless (doesn't really try to be), the more gentle your approach to a planet the better the transition is. Dive bomb the planet and the transition is very jarring. So I appoach and fly in gently and it is much better, although still very noticable.

The planets are a joy to be honest. Smaller than other games, but it sort of suits Empyrion. They are alive, or indeed dead for others, but ultimately have a nice realistic feel to them. There are weather patterns on planets, fly into fog, rain, snow and so on, makes for a realistic feeling.
Animals make sense here in the game, although dinosaurs are present and other nasties, they all feel as though they're at home on the planets, rather than put there for no reason other than to be decorative. The animal behaviour is basic, but it passes I think.

I haven't yet met many aliens, but overall watching YT videos about the game, they seem to have basic behaviour but again, not bad at all. They inhabit alien ships you find ingame. This means if you destroy a vessel enough to board her, you'll find crew in it that may still be alive, so smaller weapons are needed. They will fight reasonably well from what I have seen on YT, not got that far yet.

My thoughts on Empyrion are changing a lot. Perhaps I gave it a pass all this time because Space Engineers is so good for ship design and build. But I have to say, Empyrion is as good, if not and I can't help but think this is an apology to Eleon games, but their game is fast feeling better than Space Engineers in many ways. Wish the space/planet transition were better and you do have to tweak your ship a lot for a realistic flight feel, but you can get it with time. Gravity isn't as well portrayed as in Space Engineers, but it passes. This would be better with planets as part of the space your in rather than split and seperate, but you can forgive that for the other added things the game has.

I would say to any Space Engineers fan (I am), give Empyrion a go, it may surprise you as it has me.
Will it win you over. Yes, I think it could do, its doing it with me and I love Space Engineers, but that love may have to be devided equally.

Empyrion is fast feeling like a gem and I think this is the best time to play it after this last update. Give it a try and tell us if you agree or not.


Space to planet transition. If done gently is fairly good.

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yydmKLxQp5g