Engineers are progessive series of upgrades vs. one time shop

[Robert Maynard]

That's good question for another day.

Before it's implemented is the time to discuss it - not after.

Fact is FD want to reverse it's own knee jerking and do it proper progression this time.

Fact that people are used to do something one way shouldn't be something that stop us to at least to think about it differently.

I don't want G5 rat race. That and only that is major reason why I don't take part. Yes, new system will have similar paths within it, but they won't be visibly reachable - thus progression.

And proposal might be a trash and Engineers might have to be removed, I don't know. But at least entertain idea of doing things differently.

Whatever system is implemented it will end up with a race (for some) to Grade 5 hard maxima - so we'll be getting that "rat race" regardless of what we may want - and in fewer rolls than previously, I expect.

Others will find that they require to Engineer more than they currently do under the current system, i.e. 12.2 rolls required to roll one Grade 5 modification.

 

[House0fDerp]

Diversification over progression any day.

The existence of a best creates a race to that best regardless of what the steps in between are. Changing the method while leaving the obviously desirable end goal is at best treating a symptom rather than the cause.

Also, no, I don't agree with the idea of designing tools only to intend for players not to have them because that never works out. Some will get them because they can and in any competitive area that creates a mandate for the rest. The saving grace here is that most of the game doesn't fall under the banner of direct, face to face competition.

 

[Genus]

New Engineers Imagined: Oh wow, no one knows, this that, start with a good argument then make it utterly complicated because that fixes stuff right?

New Engineers Reality: Take the most complicated nonsense you can think of, and reverse engineer it so it makes even less sense.



Oh, for the days of simple effectiveness.

 

[trinita]

Because it is progression, not 'I pick you G4 for my module'. It is not planned as grade shop.

I honestly don't understand this "progression" argument.
the word "progression" implies each upgrade is aways an improvement, which is usually not the case.
Almost all upgrades are a trade off: you sacrifice something in order to improve something else.
Most modules upgrades present you with a choice; what is your priority? manouverability or thermal load? Thermal load or power consumption? Burst damage or power distribution management? Module integrity or mass? Resistence or MJ?
As a result of theese trade offs, more often than not, according to your ship's specs and your priorities, a a g3 or a g4 upgrade is indeed better than a g5.
this "progression argument" is pretty weak, if you ask me.

Besides, if i wanna change the clutch in my car, i don't go though 4 different clutches i'm not interested in, before installing the one i want..... it just doesn't make sense

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

Whatever system is implemented it will end up with a race (for some) to Grade 5 hard maxima - so we'll be getting that "rat race" regardless of what we may want - and in fewer rolls than previously, I expect.

Others will find that they require to Engineer more than they currently do under the current system, i.e. 12.2 rolls required to roll one Grade 5 modification.

Care to explain in detail? Do you mean grandfathering vs. new Engineered mods?

I don't care about grandfathering.

I honestly don't understand this "progression" argument.
the word "progression" implies each upgrade is aways an improvement, which is usually not the case.

New proposal includes guarantee that every upgrade will be improvement.

 

[House0fDerp]

New proposal includes guarantee that every upgrade will be improvement.

Wasn't that the general intent with grades since day 1 for the engineers?

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

Wasn't that the general intent with grades since day 1 for the engineers?

Nope, originally grade rolls had too much randomness, they minimized it, but you still could get weaker upgrade than previous one.

For new Engineers proposal it is core change. They basically guarantee you get improvement. Thus you aren't forced to do infinite rolls to get good mod at certain grade.

 

[Stealthie]

Fact is FD want to reverse it's own knee jerking and do it proper progression this time.

Fact that people are used to do something one way shouldn't be something that stop us to at least to think about it differently.

I don't want G5 rat race. That and only that is major reason why I don't take part. Yes, new system will have similar paths within it, but they won't be visibly reachable - thus progression.

You're kidding, right?

The people who're into this stuff are already quite willing to make hundreds of rolls to obtain one god-roll module.
Are we saying we expect the new system to increase the length of that process so that a person who previously did it won't bother any more?

For the rest of us, we can currently make 2 or 3 rolls and end up with a module that is, at least, in the same "ballpark" as what the dedicated min/maxers can achieve.

The new system, if implemented as currently described, will be, pretty much, business-as-usual for the min/maxers.
They'll still be doing a heap of rolls for each module.
The only difference is that they'll be doing a bunch of G1 rolls, G2 rolls, G3 rolls etc rather than just doing a huge heap of G5 rolls.

Meanwhile, the majority of players, who can currently just get a half-decent G5 roll fairly quickly, will now also have to embark on exactly the same grind as a min/maxer just to get somewhere near a similar result.
Instead of just making 2 or 3 G5 rolls.

On the other hand, maybe you're right.
Maybe it'll be better if the min/maxers carry on doing their thing to get top-tier G5 mod's and everybody else just settles for G1 or G2 rolls.
I'm sure everything will be much fairer and more balanced if a few people are flying around in G5 engineered ships while everybody else can only manage G2 or G3 mod's where, previously, the same effort would have got them a half-decent G5 mod.

 

[trinita]

New proposal includes guarantee that every upgrade will be improvement.

wait, so there wouldn't be any trade offs anymore? no disadvantage whatsoever in picking a grade 5 over a grade 3? only benefits?
Coz if that were the case, i would really hate it. Having the option to improve your ship's capabilities without compromising sounds like a horrible change. it would killl build diversity and take all the fun out of engineering our ship. Everyone would just go for the best upgrade available and that's it.
I really hope that's not the case.

 

[House0fDerp]

Nope, originally grade rolls had too much randomness, they minimized it, but you still could get weaker upgrade than previous one.

For new Engineers proposal it is core change. They basically guarantee you get improvement. Thus you aren't forced to do infinite rolls to get good mod at certain grade.

That conclusion doesn't seem to match the mechanics unless the variance is severely minimized. And not just eliminating the potential overlap between grades, but making the variance within a grade negligible. Otherwise there is still room for maximizing a particular grade level.

 

[Genus]

The new system, if implemented as currently described, will be, pretty much, business-as-usual for the min/maxers.
They'll still be doing a heap of rolls for each module.
The only difference is that they'll be doing a bunch of G1 rolls, G2 rolls, G3 rolls etc rather than just doing a huge heap of G5 rolls.

This unfortunately sounds to be the case?

So a massive grind just turned into a grind so big, no one in their right mind would do it.

 

[Mengy]

This unfortunately sounds to be the case?

So a massive grind just turned into a grind so big, no one in their right mind would do it.

Eagleboy will do it, he loves it!!!!

The rest of us, not so much. [sad]

 

[House0fDerp]

This unfortunately sounds to be the case?

So a massive grind just turned into a grind so big, no one in their right mind would do it.

Generally speaking, following gaming communities has convinced me no such threshold exists.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

This unfortunately sounds to be the case?

So a massive grind just turned into a grind so big, no one in their right mind would do it.

It helps to see it as line of progression of reachable goals with clear benefits, not as tower which peak you have to reach at all costs.

Eagleboy will do it, he loves it!!!!

The rest of us, not so much. [sad]

I won't grind it. I will play game, gather materials and visit Engineers now and then.

As I said, opportunity to get an upgrade, NOT an guaranteed upgrade shop.

 

[House0fDerp]

It helps to see it as line of progression of reachable goals with clear benefits, not as tower which peak you have to reach at all costs.

Not sure how. There is still a highly visible peak. This seems like you're overselling your perceived psychological effect of the new process. My position seems reinforced by the number of people seeing this as nothing but extra steps to the same endpoint.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

In my view all upgrades should be more like side grades. If you have a grade 5 DD, the a downside should be very significant like a lot of extra heat. So the mid grades may be good for you. Some ships may not even be able to fit a grade 5 due to heat. Stuff like that.

But what we have is huge power creep, which in my view was bad for the game. Unengineered modules should have still been relevant and not completely redundant which is the case now and will be with the new system.

No matter what FDev do, it won't be good because of the huge power creep involved. Should never have been like that in the first place.

 

[Genus]

The rest of us, not so much. [sad]

When I'm designing stuff, I tend to try and yield the majorative benefit. I consider it a tenet of you know....that.

Generally speaking, following gaming communities has convinced me no such threshold exists.

Well.....yes. Wibble.

However, what this seems to be, is essentially a system to limit the casual player to one or three ships due to time constraints involved in "engineering" them to be fit-for-purpose. Competitively I mean.

And for me, ED is ALL about the ships. I want them all, and I want good ones.

This seriously can't be the concept can it?

To correct bad decision after bad decision, with more bad decisions?

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

Not sure how. There is still a highly visible peak. This seems like you're overselling your perceived psychological effect of the new process. My position seems reinforced by the number of people seeing this as nothing but extra steps to the same endpoint.

I am not overselling this. People tend to tie themselves into status quo. It is quite liberating to think it as progression and seeing people actually planning out G3 - G2 upgrades for their ships. Variety? Of course there will be variety.

As for people seeing extra steps to the same endpoint - when all you have is hammer, everything looks like a nail. That's something game can't fix for these players. For them EVERYTHING that stands in their way to their goal is grind.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

However, what this seems to be, is essentially a system to limit the casual player to one or three ships due to time constraints involved in "engineering" them to be fit-for-purpose. Competitively I mean.

So it is all about PvP in the end?

 

[House0fDerp]

I am not overselling this. People tend to tie themselves into status quo. It is quite liberating to think it as progression and seeing people actually planning out G3 - G2 upgrades for their ships. Variety? Of course there will be variety.

As for people seeing extra steps to the same endpoint - when all you have is hammer, everything looks like a nail. That's something game can't fix for these players. For them EVERYTHING that stands in their way to their goal is grind.

You are overselling it. It doesn't add value for the player experience. just extra steps to the incremental power upgrades or upgrade diversification they are seeing. Even looking at the engineers as a gradual process doesn't give this methodology value.

And no, there won't be thinking about G2/3 progression unless that's the upper limit of your available unlocks, in which case you were already making that choice strategically. For someone who has G4/5 those G2/3 mods are stepping stones, not upgrades. And by the very nature of progression those players will grow to view lower grades the same way over time.

So it is all about PvP in the end?

PvP certainly isn't something to ignore.

Well, shouldn't be if it's intended to be a significant aspect of the game in any way.