Maybe you should start an "Engineered Ship Service" in game?
Name your price for a fully engineered Corvette with PA's, Multi's with Corrosion and Seekers with hull, FSD and shield upgrades. I'll be up for that.
Engineers are progessive series of upgrades vs. one time shop
- Thread starter Cmdr Eagleboy
- Start date
Maybe you should start an "Engineered Ship Service" in game?
Name your price for a fully engineered Corvette with PA's, Multi's with Corrosion and Seekers with hull, FSD and shield upgrades. I'll be up for that.
In the old system the typical player rolled one, two, maybe three G5 per module per ship. And he/she got some nice improvement over vanilla, some were lucky, other not such much, but everyone was to some degree happy with the outcome. A minority of players (mainly PvP folks) got crazy and invested 100s of hours to get these perfect god rolls (because they had to if they want to be competitive).
In the new system the analogue of the average G5 module everyone got in the old system is a end range G4, hence requires ~9 rolls per module per ship. Thats a fact, and that's tough because it's either a massive downgrade if you only roll once or twice (getting a G1/2) or a huge time sink (micromanaging materials). Now the key difference is that in this new system an end range G4 can be made into a end range (aka new "god roll") G5 by rolling a few times more, say 5. So now there is a massive incentive to many players to actually go this last mile if they already done the grind to G4, and get the optimum instead. Because, why not? It will probably be significantly better than the G4 and only require some more effort.
You see, the new system promotes grind and optimization, just because even getting the previous "average" (some one roll G5) is so much more work compare to the old system, while getting the optimum is so much less effort compared to the old system.
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Thing is, it won't actually be a "massive grind".
Instead, it'll just be a minor grind which is just big enough to be frustrating for no obvious reason, but one that you'll have to do over and over again, for every bloody module.
It'd actually make more sense if it was even more sadistic.
Imagine, for example a system which was totally random but where you also had to work your way up through each tier and the only way to get to the next tier was to make a god-roll?
That would be utterly horrific but it WOULD deter people from gaining the top tiers and, as a result, people wouldn't be able to rely on engineering and there'd be a more level playing field.
Don't get me wrong, it's a TERRIBLE idea but it would, at least, achieve the stated goal of curbing min/maxing.
This new system is simply going to require people to make a handful of G1 rolls, then a handful of G2 rolls, then G3, then G4, and then we'll reach G5 and we can all get on with creating the mod' that we actually want.
And, at a guess, I'd say that most of us will just grit our teeth and get on with it.
Very few people (and certainly NOT the min/maxers and PvPers) will simply give up and be satisfied with a G1 or G2 mod'.
The majority of us will just collect mat's, make rolls, level-up and then repeat until we get to G5.
There will be no difference to the balance of power, no change to the amount/type of mod's in use.
The only difference will be that everybody will be a bit annoyed and a bit frustrated while they're doing it.
And this is a good thing... how?
Not for me, dear.
By competitive, I meant through comparison with other ships in your peer group. For example, Expeditions where one Anaconda has a jump range of 60ly, and the other has 30ly.
However, I think you're right as far as FD are concerned. It absolutely is all about PvP. Hence their habit of screwing things around when trying to balance for Open.
Getting annoying to be honest.
Brilliant. All I need now is a 36 hour day, 8 days a week, including a 4 day weekend.
There is an upside. Not allowed to say it here.
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Ultimately, those that play the meta will want G5s. The metabuilds just don't happen without them.
This makes it unfortunately inevitable that this change will be resented by the folks who have unlocked engineers to that level and are used to rolling G5s for their new modules before they've even got the new ship smell out of whatever they just picked up from the shipyard. Similarly the grandfathering of their existing builds will be resented by those who are only just getting to the point where they can start rolling G5s. This is perfectly understandable and I'm certainly not criticizing them for feeling it.
Given that FD determined that a change was required - and whether we agree with it or not, they have made that determination - this is probably likely to generate less resentment overall than the alternatives. Just imagine how bad the fumes would get on here if, instead of grandfathering current mods, they'd nerfed them instead?
This makes it unfortunately inevitable that this change will be resented by the folks who have unlocked engineers to that level and are used to rolling G5s for their new modules before they've even got the new ship smell out of whatever they just picked up from the shipyard. Similarly the grandfathering of their existing builds will be resented by those who are only just getting to the point where they can start rolling G5s. This is perfectly understandable and I'm certainly not criticizing them for feeling it.
Given that FD determined that a change was required - and whether we agree with it or not, they have made that determination - this is probably likely to generate less resentment overall than the alternatives. Just imagine how bad the fumes would get on here if, instead of grandfathering current mods, they'd nerfed them instead?
Seems to be the issue.
If in doing that, they'd just rolled back Engineers and everything that went with it, to get rid of the idea in it's entirety...I'd be fine with that. And I have 12 god rolled ships of one flavour or another.
Would be happy to go back to A-Class modules and no need to even contemplate playing along with this nonsense.
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See, this is actually my biggest concern.
As a rule, I get shot at quite a bit.
The vast majority of the people who shoot at me are, however, chancers and wannabes.
They're not especially skilled and their ships aren't especially powerful.
As a result, I don't usually have a problem wither escaping them or, on occasion, spacing them.
These people aren't min/maxers or PvPers.
They just collect up a few mat's, go to an engineer and make a couple of G5 rolls on some weapon, apply a special effect while they're at it and hope for the best.
With the new system, they're going to have to make the effort to go up through each rank and then, when they get to G5, they KNOW that with a bit more effort they're going to end up with a god-roll weapon.
They've made 3 or 4 G1 rolls, 3 or 4 G2 rolls, G3 rolls, G4 rolls and they're doing G5 rolls.
Having made that effort, are they going to stop at 2 or 3 G5 rolls (as they previously might have - given that a god-roll might be another hundred rolls away) or are they going to make another 5 or 10 rolls, assured that they WILL end up with something close to a god-roll as a result?
And, bear in mind the addition of a "material trader" will ensure you can collect up the most commonly available mat's (presumably of a similar tier) and trade them in for whatever you actually need.
I have a sneaky feeling that people are going to find themselves facing chancers and wannabes with much more powerful weapons as a result of this new system. [sad]
Yes, because they are here just for funsies. They don't care about progressing trough rolls.
You guys still insist seeing absolutely everything how YOU play game. Not others. Not casuals. YOU.
If people will roll progressively, they will need mats. They will play game. They will stop to shorten distance or won't care to get dat G5 in one try. They will start to see it as an marathon not as short hop to greatness.
I think you might be right. Moreover, I feel FD believe this will affect Open positively. Which would be a whole other issue.
Firstly, read my earlier posts matey.
Secondly, hypocrisy is ugly.
Thirdly, everyone is here for "funsies". Unless you're offering wages now?
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Well, sure i see the game as i play it - how else would i see it? I am not as gifted as you are knowing how everyone else is playing it, and more important should be playing it.
Then why everything argued is positioned "this will happen and players will be left worse"?
I don't argue people should play differently. I argue what should be main line for features to follow. Which approach it carers to most.
Grade 1 Low Emission Power Plant
Offers a small reduction in power output and reasonable reduction in heat production. It's perfect for hot-running ships, like the Beluga, where even stock, the ship is prone to overheating easily.
Grade 2-5 offer up too much power reduction to be feasible.
There are 3 main camps of Engineer users - the One-and-Done, a single upgrade is all these folks need. The Moderate Tinker, who will make a few rolls to get a reasonable result. Finally, we have the Die-Hard Min/Maxer who will spend hundreds or thousands of rolls for that One Roll.
The One-and-Done will only be a little annoyed with the changes to Engineers.
The Tinkers will be a good bit more annoyed, as they will wind up investing more time than they really want.
The Min/Maxers will absolutely hate these changes, because they will find their rolls will go up exponentially.
And in the end, it all comes down to the availability of materials. In its current form, the hunt for materials can be a near full-time occupation for some, largely due to the scarcity of some materials that should not be as difficult to come by as they should (Cracked Industrial Firmware and Thermic Alloys come to mind), or because certain materials are only found under certain, specific conditions (Pharmeceutical Isolators and Military Supercapacitors). The promise of a material broker may take some of the pain out of this, but that waits to be seen.
I'd much rather they abandoned the tier system altogether.
I saw a good suggestion in the focused feedback section, for each module to have 3 slots - 1 data, 1 manufactured & 1 element.
What type of each material / data and it's grade would create a different result. This would promote experimentation and do away with grinding for a set result at a given tier. It might even be fun...am I allowed to suggest that....you know fun.
It would however require a lot more work as FDev would need to decide on what each material would do for each module and then work out effect of the possible combinations. Somehow I think we are going to get the tiered grind approach and I'm really not a fan, it's dull, repetitive and set in stone.
I saw a good suggestion in the focused feedback section, for each module to have 3 slots - 1 data, 1 manufactured & 1 element.
What type of each material / data and it's grade would create a different result. This would promote experimentation and do away with grinding for a set result at a given tier. It might even be fun...am I allowed to suggest that....you know fun.
It would however require a lot more work as FDev would need to decide on what each material would do for each module and then work out effect of the possible combinations. Somehow I think we are going to get the tiered grind approach and I'm really not a fan, it's dull, repetitive and set in stone.
I didn't predict what will happen, i simply put forth some rational argument about the incentives the new system creates compared to the old system based on effort required to match to old average and the old optimum, respectively. Feel free to challenge my arguments.
By George, I think he's got it!
Yes, yes. Exactly this.
Most people ARE just here for the funsies and don't care about god-rolls.
You make a couple of G5 rolls and you know you're within spitting-distance of the best result possible.
You also know that it might take hundreds of rolls to improve what you have because, as you say, there's no progression.
The result of a mod' is random.
The new system, however, will force people to do a heap of work just to get a single G5 roll.
Assuming people are willing to go to that effort, they'll now know there is a progression and a bit more effort will get them a god-roll.
Are you aware just how oxymoronic that statement is?
You're saying that the new system caters for "casual" players.
The existing system allows me to make ONE G5 roll and I'm good to go.
The new system will force me to make several G1 rolls, several G2 rolls, G3 rolls and G4 rolls before I can begin to create a G5 mod.
Which of those options sound more tedious, irritating, pointless and contrived to you?
Maybe how we ended up being in this mess.
Common sense and rationale should be the MO. It's where a huge section of the feature releases fall down. How many times have I said that Engineers is not the problem with Engineers? It's the system that feeds Engineers that needs looking at, not just tweaking Engineers to perform better based on FD's obsession with justifying Open.
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I have a feeling that casual players like me don't care about G5 rolls outright. What is so hard to understand in that? Yes, I will reach G5 at some point. I will get Anaconda at that point.
However, I am not dead set on doing that. Game allows me upgrade it casually. With materials broker even so.
You view it "I set a goal to get G5, and I get bored doing so". Yes, because you set A GOAL.
Engineers is not a goal. It is nice side upgrade path offering you gradual upgrades in new version.
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I think his claim is that "casuals" will just make this one or two rolls in the new system. So they should be happy with the massive downgrade - i am not, but anyway. I think the other part of the argument is that once you made your one or two rolls and are happy, you leave and rejoice in anticipation of you next visit (which will not be planned nor prepared but only occur if you return to the neighborhood by chance) were you will again make another one or two rolls to progressively improve - and rejoice.
Don't mean to blow my own trumpet but I suggested something like that.
Basically, just rip-off the crafting mechanic from Skyrim.
Each mod' could have basic components and each component could have grades (like flawed, regular, refined and exquisite focus crystals) and you'd just bung one of each component in and you've get a mod' based on the grade of components you used.
They could even keep secondaries, but remove some of the RNG from them, by ripping off Skyrim some more.
You add your basic components and then there'd be a couple of extra "slots" available.
Add, say, Iron or Tungsten to a weapon mod and you get "heavy duty". Add Tin or Alloys and you get "light weight". Add conductive stuff and you get "efficient" etc.
Add two similar "secondary mat's" and you get a big change in one way.
Add two different "secondary mat's" and you get a mixture of, say, light-weight and efficient or whatever.