General / Off-Topic EU

[Yaffle]

I recall, back in 75, there were arguments over the plans for the development of the EU.

The management of the EU was said to be in the hands of an appointed commission but gradually these powers would be handed over to the EU Parliament.

The EU parliament in particular was being viewed with suspicion because many opposed thought that it would never be content with simply being a talking shop and demand more and more power.

It's kinda ironic that the EU Parliament has settled quite nicely into its talking shop role, costing billions in the process while the commission has morphed into the monster it is today issuing edicts such as banning bent bananas, cutting down the trees outside Hindhead and telling school children they can't wear black shoes.

http://www.harvard-digital.co.uk/euro/pamphlet.htm

Not to disagree entirely, but this may interest - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6481969.stm

The bent bananas thing is a bit of a myth. But quite why we need to pay a commissioner €500k a year to opine on what constitutes 'grade A' fruit is beyond me.

On MEPs I wrote to all of mine asking what it was they did, what their goals for their term of office was, and their KPIs. Not one responded to me. Too busy filling in expenses forms I guess.

 

[SMcA]

Personally I want to stay in the EU and will vote that way, I just don't think we live in a real democracy and pretending we have a say in this is waste of everyone's time. My primary reason for liking the EU is the longest period of sustained European peace since the human race sussed out writing things down, this is never mentioned but we are currently living in a golden age.

That is what I say as well.
Having said that. I have also benefited by being able to work abroad with less bureaucracy.
I'm for staying in.

 

[Surfinjo]

The bent bananas thing is a bit of a myth. But quite why we need to pay a commissioner €500k a year to opine on what constitutes 'grade A' fruit is beyond me.

All three examples were myth. The Bananas you know, the trees south of Hindhead were cut down on the order of a MOT jobsworth Civil Servant. The shoes were a silly detail in a silly polemic in some silly tabloid. I recall hearing it being repeated by some women in town a few years ago.

Thanks for the link. It emphasises the issue.

I think on the face of it, we generally agree on what is wrong with the EU.

The EU does do an enormous amount of positive things, especially grants to community projects all over Europe. Here in the UK, among the many projects it has financed have been those in N Ireland which have lead to huge improvements in community relations. We might say these can be taken over by the UK government but we all know the reality is, the UK government will pass the responsibility to the NI government which doesn't have quite the same priorities.

In the 70s I worked, on an doff, in a number of social work settings. (Unqualified I hasten to add. I'm not a trained social worker). Especially in the second half of the 70s there were many projects being financed in some of the many run down areas of Edinburgh, Glasgow and Dundee. I know similar projects were being run in other cities all over the UK.

The importance of these can't be underestimated and let's face it, the UK government doesn't exactly have a good record in these areas.

 

[Yaffle]

I think on the face of it, we generally agree on what is wrong with the EU.

I think you are right there. As for which way I'll vote, well first up I am working in Singapore that week so may not be able to. Secondly I am unsure what I am voting for either way. Both sides say doom will happen if we vote the other way. Bereft of facts I have to go with my gut, and that is not a sensible way for a nation to decide its future.

 

[Surfinjo]

Bereft of facts I have to go with my gut, and that is not a sensible way for a nation to decide its future.

We saw the same thing in the thread on Jr. Drs pay so it seems to be a trend these days.

It is quite astonishing just how much contempt the powers have for us all now. As you said, not a sensible way to decide our nations future.

Perhaps those that predict the result will be ignored if it doesn't suit the powers are right after all.

 

[Patrick_68000]

The EU parliament itself is unnecessary.

And it is extremely expensive

 

[beelbeebub]

There was an interesting debunk on r4 of Boris's 4 EU "interferences".

Sometimes these EU rules sound simply ludicrous, like the rule that you can’t recycle a teabag, or that children under eight cannot blow up balloons, or the limits on the power of vacuum cleaners. Sometimes they can be truly infuriating – like the time I discovered, in 2013, that there was nothing we could do to bring in better-designed cab windows for trucks, to stop cyclists being crushed. It had to be done at a European level, and the French were opposed.

So the Tbag thing..... turns out that refers to EU rules that local councils can decide to bar items from municipal composting. During the foot and mouth all foodstuffs including tbags were banned. So not really EU overreach, in fact the opposite.

The balloon thing.... EU rules that blow up gallons should carry a warning that under 8's should be supervised when blowing them up. Hardly a ban or even onerous to gallon manufacturers and suppliers.

The vacuum cleaners, this is a long time measure, intended to reduce electricity consumption by preventing manufacturers from making powerful vacuums simply by putting a massive motor in them. It's the equivalent of the increases in car efficiency or building regulations.

The trucks.....EU regulations are in progress and the first set of rules to make trucks more pedestrian and cyclist friendly are set to take effect in 2018, but it will obviously take a decade or two before the older trucks drop out of service.

The last two are important, say the UK wanted to make major alterations to truck designs, if it acted unilaterally (say bigger windows) then manufacturers would have to make a model specifically for the UK market, costly. Then there's the issue of EU trucks driving in the UK. In the EU, the UK at least has influence over the various EU wide regulations, outside we will really struggle with technical regulations, which our manufacturers would have to comply with if they wanted to sell in Europe anyway.

 

[jackdaws_1999]

Well, we managed very well up until 1974 when "cut prices at a stroke" Heath lied about EU membership only being a trading partnership.
Compounded by John "The s" Major (himself a bit of a backstabber) with Maastricht.

I think as the second richest nation in the EEC and currently a net contributor not a net beneficiary we can manage quite well without the rest of them. IMHO.

Just watch as the politically controlled media starts to tell us how awful it would be outside of the EEC.

Restore our national sovereignty and give Europe the boot.

The UK is currently rated 23 on the list of richest in terms of GDP. Thats world wide, but in terms of the EEC, the following are ahead of us in terms of GDP:
Belgium, Denmark, Germany (both per capita, in terms of pure richness, and GDP), Sweden, Netherlands, Ireland (believe it or not), Norway and Luxemburg. All members of the EU, all contribute more to the EU than the UK, all of which are our main export targets for what little goods we now produce.

The UK is in a VERY bad state right now, we produce little, and consume lots. A nation cannot survive on imports. Northern Ireland is almost entirely subsidised by the EU, the rest of the UK pays very little into this little slice of heven. If a certain tory government hadnt sold off our entire steel industry, trains, electric (we are now turning to the chineese to make our nuclear power factories), military (we share an air craft carrier with the french), and pretty much the rest of our economy due to the short term benefit of privitisation (which then allows companies to move elsewhere cause its cheaper).

We have no economy outside of services and coffee shops. Even then, the companies that are here pay little to no tax (all hail the mighty google, we couldnt possibly ask for the money they owe us... they might leave). Our empire was built of slavery, expansionism, and imperialism, it crumbled and collapsed. We have to get used to the idea that we are past tense, time to move on, split the union, go our seperate ways. Meet again in the next life... when we are cats...

Sorry for the wall of text, but I hate to say it, we would be next to nothing in terms of trade without the EU, without the EU we lose the only reason the US keeps us as a pet. We are basically done as a nation. God save the queen, and these streets she dont live in, cause no other will.

 

[Yaffle]

The UK is currently rated 23 on the list of richest in terms of GDP. Thats world wide, but in terms of the EEC, the following are ahead of us in terms of GDP:
Belgium, Denmark, Germany (both per capita, in terms of pure richness, and GDP), Sweden, Netherlands, Ireland (believe it or not), Norway and Luxemburg. All members of the EU, all contribute more to the EU than the UK

The BBC (well the EU/HM Treasury) would beg to differ on the last part of that:



Source - http://www.bbc.co.uk/guides/zgjwtyc

While that is reliable, the ever-so-random Wikipedia disagrees on the GDP number, putting UK at 5 (which makes sense as it is part of the G7) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)

Also, the same make it up as you go along reference point puts it 14 per capita. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

If purchasing power parity is your thing, then the UK is 10th in total (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP) ) or 27th (ish) per capita - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

I am with you on the shocking state of the economy. We need to be making things, not just being a financial services hub. This book - http://www.dow.com/advanced-manufacturing/make-it-in-america/ sums up my feelings very well (okay, so it's about the USA, but the basic argument is the same).

 

[Arry]

The UK is currently rated 23 on the list of richest in terms of GDP. Thats world wide, but in terms of the EEC, the following are ahead of us in terms of GDP:
Belgium, Denmark, Germany (both per capita, in terms of pure richness, and GDP), Sweden, Netherlands, Ireland (believe it or not), Norway and Luxemburg. All members of the EU, all contribute more to the EU than the UK, all of which are our main export targets for what little goods we now produce.

The UK is in a VERY bad state right now, we produce little, and consume lots. A nation cannot survive on imports. Northern Ireland is almost entirely subsidised by the EU, the rest of the UK pays very little into this little slice of heven. If a certain tory government hadnt sold off our entire steel industry, trains, electric (we are now turning to the chineese to make our nuclear power factories), military (we share an air craft carrier with the french), and pretty much the rest of our economy due to the short term benefit of privitisation (which then allows companies to move elsewhere cause its cheaper).

We have no economy outside of services and coffee shops. Even then, the companies that are here pay little to no tax (all hail the mighty google, we couldnt possibly ask for the money they owe us... they might leave). Our empire was built of slavery, expansionism, and imperialism, it crumbled and collapsed. We have to get used to the idea that we are past tense, time to move on, split the union, go our seperate ways. Meet again in the next life... when we are cats...

Sorry for the wall of text, but I hate to say it, we would be next to nothing in terms of trade without the EU, without the EU we lose the only reason the US keeps us as a pet. We are basically done as a nation. God save the queen, and these streets she dont live in, cause no other will.

Not a bad point of view; very close to the truth. The UK was not only built on slavery and such. A lot of the things that have advanced man kind, were invented here. Mostly; well out of order weapons etc, I'd grant you, but other massive, technical advancements, were started here.

At the same time; leaving the E.U. would be folly, foolish. We could stand on our own, we could survive, even thrive; but I doubt it. Why, we would be just fine; doing our own deals, for food and fuel; until we upset someone; over there. Then we would become, isolated and slowly stave to death. The problem is not the British, it's Johnny foreigner: He is so easy to up set!

 

[beelbeebub]

The UK is ranked 5th in GDP by pretty much every ranking organization, IMF, World bank, UN, CIA.

It's true we are a big economy and Europe would be worse off without us, but they still have Germany (bigger than us), France and Italy that are nearly as big as us so it's not as if we are a the only star player on the team. They'll get on fine without us and I suspect will be in no mood to play nice with us when it comes to a trade agreement.

We'd be the ex girlfriend who's dumped them but still wants to "be friends". Can't see the EU being overly keen on giving us a good deal.

I can't see us negotiating any trading agreement with the EU that would be any better than now.

Maybe we could make a trade agreement with the US, but do you think our bargaining power as the UK will be better than the EU as a whole? Will we get better terms as an independent or as part of the EU?

Maybe we are missing the point though. Nobody can say for certain what the effect on our economy, jobs, borders etc will be.

Maybe what we should be focusing on is the concept of Europe. Do we want to be involved in a project that's ultimate aim is to push nations closer together, or do we want to be on the side of making nations more separate?

Nothing ever stands still, we either drift together or we drift apart.

 

[Yaffle]

This may interest - http://www.farming.co.uk/news/article/12225

Note that the agricultural industry is far from being independent in these matters.

 

[Surfinjo]

This may interest - http://www.farming.co.uk/news/article/12225

Note that the agricultural industry is far from being independent in these matters.

Farming will certainly be in for a rough ride outside the EU. If there is one thing the EU does will it's take care of farmers. In the world market, the tough, tasteless beef, over priced crops and watery milk may not be quite so welcome.

 

[beelbeebub]

Farming will certainly be in for a rough ride outside the EU. If there is one thing the EU does will it's take care of farmers. In the world market, the tough, tasteless beef, over priced crops and watery milk may not be quite so welcome.

So you want cheap food or good quality food? Farmers are already being driven to the wall trying to provide you with bargain food (how you feel being paid less than £20 for a ton of potatoes, including packing and delivery?).

If you fancy paying a decent rate for your food you can get some of the best produce in the world.

 

[Yaffle]

So you want cheap food or good quality food? Farmers are already being driven to the wall trying to provide you with bargain food (how you feel being paid less than £20 for a ton of potatoes, including packing and delivery?).

If you fancy paying a decent rate for your food you can get some of the best produce in the world.

I do agree with this. There is a prize of volume rather than quality. Sadly as with all things you get any two from good, cheap, or volume. Despite the subsidies farmers still struggle.

We are lucky and are surrounded by farms, so we can buy a lot of stuff direct from them. We get veg of all shapes and sizes covered in earth. Just like veg actually is. It's still not as good as fresh from your own garden, but we can't grow everything.

The local butcher sources locally. Sure it's more expensive than a supermarket, but it's just better quality.

 

[Surfinjo]

So you want cheap food or good quality food? Farmers are already being driven to the wall trying to provide you with bargain food (how you feel being paid less than £20 for a ton of potatoes, including packing and delivery?).

If you fancy paying a decent rate for your food you can get some of the best produce in the world.

I'm sorry but that sounds like another of those, Everything will be sunshine and roses once we are out in the big world again.

It sounds wonderful, the reality is it doesn't make a lot of sense. The quality of English farm produce isn't going to suddenly improve outside the EU.

It will remain exactly the same. But it will be competing against world markets, not just the European.

 

[Arry]

I'm sorry but that sounds like another of those, Everything will be sunshine and roses once we are out in the big world again.

It sounds wonderful, the reality is it doesn't make a lot of sense. The quality of English farm produce isn't going to suddenly improve outside the EU.

It will remain exactly the same. But it will be competing against world markets, not just the European.

The bottom line is: We cannot feed ourselves; even the basics, like bread. We need the imports and all will be well, until someone upsets Jonny Foreigner and then we will pay through the nose for our food. At the same time, for most of the things we consume, we now pay the most in Europe, anyway.

 

[Surfinjo]

The bottom line is: We cannot feed ourselves; even the basics, like bread. We need the imports and all will be well, until someone upsets Jonny Foreigner and then we will pay through the nose for our food. At the same time, for most of the things we consume, we now pay the most in Europe, anyway.

Exactly.

 

[Surfinjo]

Seems the mud slinging continues:

France's economy minister Emmanuel Macron earlier sparked a row when he told the Financial Times his country could end UK border controls in Calais.
He also said France would limit access to the single market and try to tempt London's bankers to relocate.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35712463

As someone from the yes camp, this sort of nonsense just hold France up to its own stupidity.

Assuming France did this and the next ferry was loaded up with these migrants. The British would simply exercise its legal right to refuse entry of the ferry to UK waters.

The ferry would, under international law, be forced to return to its last port of embarkation or home port. Since these ferrys are French owned.........

It really boils down to that. The French co-operation is no such thing. It is an attempt by France to use the suffering of humans to put pressure on the British to do as France dictates.

As for getting bankers to relocate that is equally funny. These banks have located in London because they judge it to the the best place for their operations. If the UK leaves the EU, the UK government would have complete control over its own banking regulations and be able to do whatever is necessary to accommodate these banks. Even more so than it is doing right now. The EU meanwhile, would continue to be stuck with its petty and outstandingly corrupt systems.

Perhaps I'm looking at this the wrong way. Perhaps the French really want the British to leave.

 

[Arry]

Seems the mud slinging continues:



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35712463

As someone from the yes camp, this sort of nonsense just hold France up to its own stupidity.

Assuming France did this and the next ferry was loaded up with these migrants. The British would simply exercise its legal right to refuse entry of the ferry to UK waters.

The ferry would, under international law, be forced to return to its last port of embarkation or home port. Since these ferrys are French owned.........

It really boils down to that. The French co-operation is no such thing. It is an attempt by France to use the suffering of humans to put pressure on the British to do as France dictates.

As for getting bankers to relocate that is equally funny. These banks have located in London because they judge it to the the best place for their operations. If the UK leaves the EU, the UK government would have complete control over its own banking regulations and be able to do whatever is necessary to accommodate these banks. Even more so than it is doing right now. The EU meanwhile, would continue to be stuck with its petty and outstandingly corrupt systems.

Perhaps I'm looking at this the wrong way. Perhaps the French really want the British to leave.

Did you read that Ozzy had to petition to get the G20 to even mention that the Briexit may have an effect on the world economy; it wasn't even a part of the G20 statement until after he had petitioned for it to be added. Then he had something to lie to the press about.