This is how I would like it.
The blank spheres might have been ok if implemented from original release, but the exploration community we have is based on the system we currently have.
Exploration Scans
- Thread starter Sandro Sammarco
- Start date
This is how I would like it.
The blank spheres might have been ok if implemented from original release, but the exploration community we have is based on the system we currently have.
Just watched the video and I do agree with you that Obsidians approach on the detail scan levels where the three versions all have infinite range but vary in detail is a good one (I'd vote for this).
I still believe a closer inspection should be required for detailed composition and prospecting information though. Either by getting close with your ships scanner (not the separate DSS module), or via explorer drones you can deploy and retrieve (Is a separate module) where visiting all bodies in a system would become tedious for most people. The size of the module would determine how many drones can be active concurrently and the grade would affect lifespan of the drones.
This would still go a long way to making exploration more accessible without reducing it to honk-jump.
Someone who thinks everyone deserves to be happy if that is possible? And if for some odd reason that is not possible, then any polling should be authenticated by user accounts?
You got me.
First, I would like to say THANKS to you, and Frontier in general, for actually asking your players what would be best for the game. So few companies do this...
Next, I actually started a thread s few days back and have had some input from a few players on this subject, here:
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...ILED-Surface-Scanner-to-actually-give-details
To specifically answer your questions... In essence, I like how v2.1 scans work, and so the enhancements in v2.2 of giving a more detailed visual representation in the planet map after a basic surface scan is a good extension to this. The idea of leaving the planets totally blank and you have to fly out to each one of them to get so much as a graphic representation, is terrible.
Exploration currently is still a bit of a grind, dotted around with some really excellent finds that make the grind worth it - like finding a ringed Black Hole or twin ELWs... But I don't have the time to be scanning every body in every system, so the graphic representation that is given in the System Map is essential! Don't Frontier already have the stats that show how few systems of the 400 billion have been discovered? I can assure you the rate of discovery will fall if the honk is diminished.
But there is room for improvement, as discussed in that thread I started. I see two problems which could be addressed to improve the game greatly:
1. Currently there is little to no use of the "Detailed Surface Scanner" module, other than some extra credits, which is really uninspiring. If I go to the trouble of having this module taking up my precious slots in my ship, it really should give me DETAILED information about the planet, including points of interest that would make a commander want to go to the surface and actually drive around on it.
2. Currently, Frontier's big plot reveals of crashed alien ships (or whatever they are) are not being discovered by random exploration by random commanders. Instead, there are rather bogus "treasure hunt" GalNet news articles or CGs that really only reward a handful of commanders with the joy of discovery. Thereafter, for the rest of us, it's either Reddit or Forum posts that give us exact coordinates and even then they can be tricky to spot from the sky. Yep, basically the rest of us that don't happen to be logged in when the clues to the plot reveal are doled out are relegated to tourists.
Both of these two problems could be solved with the Detailed Surface Scanner giving you a list of the POIs on the planet in the Planet Map. Click on a POI to select it and then get guided right to it.
And to encourage the Detailed Surface Scan of planets that are NOT Earth Likes... In the System Map, highlight the ones that have POIs in a different colour... Just a thought...
Again, thanks for asking the input of the players. Shows you are part of a great company. Keep up the great work! o7
#ForTheMug
Next, I actually started a thread s few days back and have had some input from a few players on this subject, here:
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...ILED-Surface-Scanner-to-actually-give-details
To specifically answer your questions... In essence, I like how v2.1 scans work, and so the enhancements in v2.2 of giving a more detailed visual representation in the planet map after a basic surface scan is a good extension to this. The idea of leaving the planets totally blank and you have to fly out to each one of them to get so much as a graphic representation, is terrible.
Exploration currently is still a bit of a grind, dotted around with some really excellent finds that make the grind worth it - like finding a ringed Black Hole or twin ELWs... But I don't have the time to be scanning every body in every system, so the graphic representation that is given in the System Map is essential! Don't Frontier already have the stats that show how few systems of the 400 billion have been discovered? I can assure you the rate of discovery will fall if the honk is diminished.
But there is room for improvement, as discussed in that thread I started. I see two problems which could be addressed to improve the game greatly:
1. Currently there is little to no use of the "Detailed Surface Scanner" module, other than some extra credits, which is really uninspiring. If I go to the trouble of having this module taking up my precious slots in my ship, it really should give me DETAILED information about the planet, including points of interest that would make a commander want to go to the surface and actually drive around on it.
2. Currently, Frontier's big plot reveals of crashed alien ships (or whatever they are) are not being discovered by random exploration by random commanders. Instead, there are rather bogus "treasure hunt" GalNet news articles or CGs that really only reward a handful of commanders with the joy of discovery. Thereafter, for the rest of us, it's either Reddit or Forum posts that give us exact coordinates and even then they can be tricky to spot from the sky. Yep, basically the rest of us that don't happen to be logged in when the clues to the plot reveal are doled out are relegated to tourists.
Both of these two problems could be solved with the Detailed Surface Scanner giving you a list of the POIs on the planet in the Planet Map. Click on a POI to select it and then get guided right to it.
And to encourage the Detailed Surface Scan of planets that are NOT Earth Likes... In the System Map, highlight the ones that have POIs in a different colour... Just a thought...
Again, thanks for asking the input of the players. Shows you are part of a great company. Keep up the great work! o7
#ForTheMug
Exactly, yes. Obsidian's video showing the community created solution would only apply to the 3 discovery scanners. The DSS is still the DSS with the same scientific and material info available on a focused scan. And a focused scan with the two lower tier discovery scanners (BDS and IDS) would allow for a zoomable surface map.
I like how it is now but would love another level of surface scanning that gives you more details like the planets make up or life forms or generally something else.
My thoughts: any change to the current exploration paradigm needs to be consistent with what we already have. It makes no sense that, after 2 years of exploring the galaxy, my discovery scanner gets a firmware patch that cripples the existing functionality. If any changes can't be implemented without retconning then it isn't worth implementing.
This, of course, is a problem in general when releasing a game as a constant 'work in progress'. When 2.2 is released on Tuesday all of a sudden stations across the galaxy will be getting a simultaneous face lift. My precious glass orb of immersion will be shattering to pieces when my Commander loads into the post 2.2 universe
On a more serious note: I really wish that the current implementation of exploration scans in the Beta had been the default since day one but I'm worried that many players who are accustomed to the 'old' way of exploring will no longer find exploration in Elite: Dangerous to be compelling game play.
My sentiments too.
FD, you're trying to fix the barn door 2 years after the horse legged it. As someone who was disappointed at the time, and opposed to the all powerful ADS from day one of gamma and campaigned for months into release with others at the time to give us something that actually required skill to find stuff, and not pot luck and a 5 second press of the buzzer, I feel the chance has come and gone.
But at least you have time now and are looking at exploration again. Please consider using that time on more skill based discovery techniques for locating interesting POIs in systems, asteroid belts, and on planetary surfaces. The best stuff should take actual skill and interesting discovery mechanics to locate (imho). Honking systems to reveal them is all most players know now, you are just going to upset half the playerbase to appease the other half.
I say let the all powerful ADS reveal textured worlds on the system map, but give us something far more engaging and skill based for locating the really unique and interesting POIs within systems that I'm sure you'll be adding to the game in due course. None of this random signal source 'gameplay' that spawns garbage, but something that gets the adrenalin going once you're on its trail because you know the prize is worthy of the skill and time investment to nail it down!
Theres no art to discovery in this game. That's what's missing from exploration imho.
Fleshing out the mechanics of exploration;
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/191647-Fleshing-out-the-Mechanics-of-Exploration
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If that's your summary of what people who opposed this are saying, I'm afraid you are so blinkered that discussing the issue further seems pointless.
My own bottom line by the way is my fun.
Also way to go with the 'interesting screenshot taking' profession gag, compared to your noble 'core profession'. That kind of snobbish nonsense doesn't really make people inclined to give anything you have to say a generous hearing.
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I would personally ask that Frontier own their gameplay design decisions instead of constantly polling the community for everything.
If you have a good concise vision you should stick to it. Otherwise we risk ending up with an Elite that's just a mashup of random things the people at the time voted for.
Personally I don't think game design is a democracy.
Sure, you can keep your ear close to the community and listen to concerns and beta feedback, but making informed decisions is different from catering to every polled whim. (Like in the previous ship transportation poll)
If you have a good concise vision you should stick to it. Otherwise we risk ending up with an Elite that's just a mashup of random things the people at the time voted for.
Personally I don't think game design is a democracy.
Sure, you can keep your ear close to the community and listen to concerns and beta feedback, but making informed decisions is different from catering to every polled whim. (Like in the previous ship transportation poll)
I agree very much on the skill based exploration sentiments, and that people should be able to pick the skill level they want to play at. This way all 3 "halves" get what they want, and no one has to feel left out
Please take a look at the Obsidian Ant's video showing how we could all get the scanner we want, starting at t=4:31.
There are loadout incentives for each level of scanner, so picking a lower tier one is not just a self-nerf.
[video=youtube_share;iGQafi6K7v0]https://youtu.be/iGQafi6K7v0?t=4m31s[/video]
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Sorry have to call on this one, it's not functionality we already have but it maybe functionality we never get if the arguments don't get more factual.
I think Frontier need to revisit the modules for scanning as they are not fully fleshed out entities, unlike other devices.
If you look at the scanners the only things that differentiate them are Range and Price. With the current income generation levels price is pretty much irrelevant as new players can earn a million in an hour or two. When the game started it would take a few weeks to earn those sums. So the only thing to look at is range and people naturally pop for the Advanced scanner with its infinite range, the ranges of the other two scanners are inconsequential to any player.
We need therefore to look at existing in game mechanics that can create variation in the scanners. I also think their ranges need tweaking
These mechanics are MASS, POWER USAGE, HEAT OUTPUT.
All discovery scanners currently have the same mass of 2 tonnes, zero power output and as far as I know don't generate heat.
I propose the following
Basic discovery scanner. Built into ship uses no module space, has no additional mass, uses minimal power 0.1mj and generates no additional heat. Range increases to 2000 LS.
This range more than covers the goldilocks zone for earth likes around the majority of stars.
Intermediate Discovery scanner. Requires a 2 tonne module space, uses moderate power eg 1MJ, and generates a moderate amount of heat. Range increases to 20,000LS. The range is the approximate distance for Pluto from our sun.
Advanced Discovery scanner requires a 4 tonne module, uses high amount of power eg 3 MJ, and generates a lot of heat, range remains infinite. I rationalise it requires high levels of power and consequently generates lots of heat as its required to scan huge distances.
I would also add a slight delay in terms of scan time between the different scanning types. It makes sense for the Advanced scanner to take an extra few seconds to scan an entire system than a basic scanner that just pings out to 2000ls. This also helps the heat effects to have more impact.
My rationale for this is that it helps provide options for different explorer types and exploration ship builds. Players who are what I call Scouts would be best using the Basic Scanner as that is quick and is best suited to the honk scoop Jump technique that many so called explorers use. They can max their ships range and therefore cover vast distances quickly.
Conversely those choosing Advanced Scanners are Cartographers, they are people who like to map out entire systems. As such they can take the slight range hit caused by not being able to run a META range build Asp or Anaconda.
The heat mechanics that would be built into the none basic scanners would also have ship health implications, especially around certain star types if attempting honk scoop jump. Cartographic explorers would need to take heat into account more when planning an exploration build ship.
Introducing Heat, mass and power into scanners also allows for the introduction of Engineers who modify such builds, Perhaps you could have a basic scanner that uses more power and generates heat but increases scan range. Conversely you could have a lightweight, low power advanced scanner that no longer has infinite range, but still has say 75,000LS range and generates less heat.
Going forward the heat generation and high electromagnetic signature of the Advanced scanner would make you highly visible to any little green men who fly octagonal shaped ships. Hence this increases your chance of an hostile ET encounter.
With regard to the Detailed Surface Scanner. Its my view that its range should be increased significantly. Players scanning any planet should not be required to slow down to sublight speeds in order to scan bodies. I believe you should need a detailed surface scan to be able to see the planetary surface in the system map. By increasing the range of the scanner i have eliminated the argument as detailed by Obsidian Ant that you can already see the planets layout by the time you have scanned the body. Players wanting to scout out good planets to race on would be able to do so with less tedium than is the case now.
The detailed scanner gong forward should reveal points of interest and other game play opportunities that would otherwise be obscured and therefore difficult to find. The detailed scanner may for example allow a rare mineral to be located on a surface or perhaps point to an abandoned settlement of the "missing"
If you look at the scanners the only things that differentiate them are Range and Price. With the current income generation levels price is pretty much irrelevant as new players can earn a million in an hour or two. When the game started it would take a few weeks to earn those sums. So the only thing to look at is range and people naturally pop for the Advanced scanner with its infinite range, the ranges of the other two scanners are inconsequential to any player.
We need therefore to look at existing in game mechanics that can create variation in the scanners. I also think their ranges need tweaking
These mechanics are MASS, POWER USAGE, HEAT OUTPUT.
All discovery scanners currently have the same mass of 2 tonnes, zero power output and as far as I know don't generate heat.
I propose the following
Basic discovery scanner. Built into ship uses no module space, has no additional mass, uses minimal power 0.1mj and generates no additional heat. Range increases to 2000 LS.
This range more than covers the goldilocks zone for earth likes around the majority of stars.
Intermediate Discovery scanner. Requires a 2 tonne module space, uses moderate power eg 1MJ, and generates a moderate amount of heat. Range increases to 20,000LS. The range is the approximate distance for Pluto from our sun.
Advanced Discovery scanner requires a 4 tonne module, uses high amount of power eg 3 MJ, and generates a lot of heat, range remains infinite. I rationalise it requires high levels of power and consequently generates lots of heat as its required to scan huge distances.
I would also add a slight delay in terms of scan time between the different scanning types. It makes sense for the Advanced scanner to take an extra few seconds to scan an entire system than a basic scanner that just pings out to 2000ls. This also helps the heat effects to have more impact.
My rationale for this is that it helps provide options for different explorer types and exploration ship builds. Players who are what I call Scouts would be best using the Basic Scanner as that is quick and is best suited to the honk scoop Jump technique that many so called explorers use. They can max their ships range and therefore cover vast distances quickly.
Conversely those choosing Advanced Scanners are Cartographers, they are people who like to map out entire systems. As such they can take the slight range hit caused by not being able to run a META range build Asp or Anaconda.
The heat mechanics that would be built into the none basic scanners would also have ship health implications, especially around certain star types if attempting honk scoop jump. Cartographic explorers would need to take heat into account more when planning an exploration build ship.
Introducing Heat, mass and power into scanners also allows for the introduction of Engineers who modify such builds, Perhaps you could have a basic scanner that uses more power and generates heat but increases scan range. Conversely you could have a lightweight, low power advanced scanner that no longer has infinite range, but still has say 75,000LS range and generates less heat.
Going forward the heat generation and high electromagnetic signature of the Advanced scanner would make you highly visible to any little green men who fly octagonal shaped ships. Hence this increases your chance of an hostile ET encounter.
With regard to the Detailed Surface Scanner. Its my view that its range should be increased significantly. Players scanning any planet should not be required to slow down to sublight speeds in order to scan bodies. I believe you should need a detailed surface scan to be able to see the planetary surface in the system map. By increasing the range of the scanner i have eliminated the argument as detailed by Obsidian Ant that you can already see the planets layout by the time you have scanned the body. Players wanting to scout out good planets to race on would be able to do so with less tedium than is the case now.
The detailed scanner gong forward should reveal points of interest and other game play opportunities that would otherwise be obscured and therefore difficult to find. The detailed scanner may for example allow a rare mineral to be located on a surface or perhaps point to an abandoned settlement of the "missing"
What?! Sorry, beyond calling , you're not making any sense dude.
Oh and it wasn't really an argument, just my personal opinion, y'know whats being asked for........
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Another reason against changing it is that if you hide too much detail it makes the 'discovered by' tag largely pointless. After all one of the nice things about claiming that earthlike is if you like putting your flag on it for others to see. Hiding all of that away just makes that joy just well useless.
That’s so mysterious, who is he? Drum roll……Zinjin is Hillary Clinton.
Only messin dude.
I like Ziljan's idea of having the different scanners (Basic, Intermediate, Advanced) having infinite range with different capabilities - i.e Basic not being able to resolve the surface of a planet, whereas Advanced does.
As the majority of people use an Advanced Discovery Scanner once they can afford it, it means they be happy with the new surface feature coming in 2.2 whereas people who want some challenge in exploration (trying to work out what a planet might be through science) can fit a Basic Discovery scanner and also be happy.
Everyone's a winner and all can then be happy.
As the majority of people use an Advanced Discovery Scanner once they can afford it, it means they be happy with the new surface feature coming in 2.2 whereas people who want some challenge in exploration (trying to work out what a planet might be through science) can fit a Basic Discovery scanner and also be happy.
Everyone's a winner and all can then be happy.
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Sorry if i confused you, You do understand that this is not about taking away functionality we already have, feel free to explain that one and i'll stand corrected. It's about putting the NEW planet map behind the DSS which we never had and 2.2 will go live without therefore we NEVER had it. I know many things are just opinion but not that it is a simple fact.
Fly safe.
A lot of the panic may be related to the fact that no one fits DSS. Maybe frontier can put it on a utility slot of something or include it with ADS/DSS to mitigate some of the pain. Frontier your asking people to give up a presious module slot to see a nice planetary pic thats half the problem.
I like the way you're releasing it gives the DSS some meaning but think of moving it from the single module.
Fly safe.
A lot of the panic may be related to the fact that no one fits DSS. Maybe frontier can put it on a utility slot of something or include it with ADS/DSS to mitigate some of the pain. Frontier your asking people to give up a presious module slot to see a nice planetary pic thats half the problem.
I like the way you're releasing it gives the DSS some meaning but think of moving it from the single module.
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I disagree with you on this point. Gathering opinions of the people with a vested interest (the players) is good. The design team then decide which ideas work with the overall game ethos relating to functionality and complexity levels etc as well as what is practical to program. They do not simply poll players and go with the most popular opinion.
Case in point. I liked my idea on scanners. I was directed to the Obsidian video for another opinion and his idea is better than mine so I'd support that over mine for the scanners even if I still like my additional suggestion of additional probes. The same can happen with design teams when gathering ideas and approaches, they just have the added expertise to decide what would actually work in practice and the authority to decide what fits the games direction.
Having a Message in you're Inbox from an NPC Explorer could be a nice addition. They would be from the same system or near by system asking to bring back the data to them/go look at site A etc so its like having a mission on the fly instead of having to be docked to pick up the mission.
Please initiate an official poll.
Personally I would like second choice. Basi Scan --> only grid is shown --> has to fly near for surface scan --> details on system map gets updated --> in addition surface scan installed --> more information get revealed.
AND ...
Please include more sorts of detail scanners... for instance
a) a structure detail scanner that allows you to scan for strange structures
b) a life form detail scanner that allows you to search for lifeforms
Personally I would like second choice. Basi Scan --> only grid is shown --> has to fly near for surface scan --> details on system map gets updated --> in addition surface scan installed --> more information get revealed.
AND ...
Please include more sorts of detail scanners... for instance
a) a structure detail scanner that allows you to scan for strange structures
b) a life form detail scanner that allows you to search for lifeforms