Explorers : would you consider giving up on the infinite honk for...?

We already have 4 levels of scan, going from the stats L1 is the basic honk and L4 is the full DSS. Not sure about L2 or L3.

It could be L1 is a no scan system visit, L2 is the Honk, L3 is non-DSS surface scan, and L4 is a DSS surface scan.

I am not sure either way.
 
Given that we can now select companion stars at any distance from the system map the discover scanners could really be rescaled to
Basic at 1,500 light seconds
Intermediate at 15,000 light seconds
Advanced at 150,000 light seconds

Add engineering options
 
Currently level 1 is "honk" with whatever grade scanner you have, or without a scanner just fly close to bodies. System map, list of bodies in navigation pane, nothing else.

Level 2 is surface scan with B/I/ADS. 90% of body info.

Level 3 is surface scan with DSS. Extra 10% info, 50% more credits.

Level 4 is flying around landable planets looking for blue circles. Currently no money for this bit though.

Level 5 is driving around in an SRV using a wave scanner. Rewards are generally not credit based but mats, cargo, exploration rank.

IMO level 3 needs to be improved, the gameplay for this should be different from level 2, a different mini game. It should point the way to where to do level 4.
 
We already have 4 levels of scan, going from the stats L1 is the basic honk and L4 is the full DSS. Not sure about L2 or L3.

It could be L1 is a no scan system visit, L2 is the Honk, L3 is non-DSS surface scan, and L4 is a DSS surface scan.

I am not sure either way.


Level 1 Honk
Level 2 scan
Level 3 scan with detailed surface scanner

There is no level 4 scan
 
Level 1 Honk
Level 2 scan
Level 3 scan with detailed surface scanner

There is no level 4 scan
Fair enough... I must have been getting mixed up with the engineering stats screen a bit... don't really pay much attention to these screens normally.

Still... my point still stands in a general sense... there are already levels of scans and rewards.
 
Currently level 1 is "honk" with whatever grade scanner you have, or without a scanner just fly close to bodies. System map, list of bodies in navigation pane, nothing else.

Level 2 is surface scan with B/I/ADS. 90% of body info.

Level 3 is surface scan with DSS. Extra 10% info, 50% more credits.

Level 4 is flying around landable planets looking for blue circles. Currently no money for this bit though.

Level 5 is driving around in an SRV using a wave scanner. Rewards are generally not credit based but mats, cargo, exploration rank.

IMO level 3 needs to be improved, the gameplay for this should be different from level 2, a different mini game. It should point the way to where to do level 4.
The L4/L5 are not completely reward free... although L4 normally requires L5 to get the rewards from the POIs. Changes in this area could be part of the reason for the addition of the DLS to ship equipment in 2.3 (IIRC).

Changes to L3, such as adding an L3.5 (orbital scan) might be a nice addition... rewards for detecting significant surface or atmospheric features perhaps (storms in gas giants, or especially high/deep terrain on planets with a surface).
 
I'd be fine with them keeping the infinite honk if they reduced its usefulness. Say, have two ranges per scanner, because the basic and intermediate scanners are largely useless.

make it so that a honk reveals its current information at its basic ranges for basic and intermediate, but extends ten times as far with highly reduced information. Like if you saw it on the system map with an intermediate, everything would be normal up to 1000LS, but up to 10,000LS you see only shadow forms and have mass information only. You know something is there, but not what.

then for the advanced you scale it down so the honk only goes 100,000LS with its current information, but infinite for the shadow/mass results.

This is a great idea because currently the basic and intermediate scanners are in flyover country. We just had a brand new guy join our group and he had an ADS in his first hour of play after running missions. The IDS and BDS needs a revamp like this to give them interesting gameplay to make them viable alternatives again, or they just need to be removed. Parallax astronomy isn't even a thing anymore. Maybe 1 or 2 CMDRs in the whole game use it. At the very least, they should get a big mass reduction to make them useful for small ships, or be rolled into the DSS as a single scanner with more limited range/functionality, but one that only takes up 1 slot.
 
Exploring Is only as easy as you want it to be. I personally make a point of landing and looking on each landable body I scan, and dropping out at the "too close" boundary for the ones I can't. Time-consuming, but at least it feels like I'm actually exploring as opposed to honking at it as I pass by on the freeway. As for "wasting precious time", a common whine, if one is using it to play games, it isn't precious.
As for the initial honk, good to have at least that so one knows there's something to explore. After the basic "something is there", it would be good to have more and better mechanics to fill in the details, such as some of the fancier ones mentioned above.
 
Yeah, I know there are plenty of arguments for and against it, but I do feel like the current ADS is far too powerful, in that it robs potential gameplay opportunities.

If it was as you say, all the "real" explorers would use a BDS. They don't. Why? Time. There's no value proposition in this. Don't conflate "more time" with "better outcome". It's an incredibly overused trope, here.

No, the ADS fulfils a function at present, and does so in a way that allows commanders some choices around where to remain, and explore more, or leave the 12 beige and valueless planets (in just about every meaning of the word) to their predefined fate. It's not the ADS that's the problem; it's not the honk that's the problem, arguably even driving up to a planet and scan it from six inches away (at least we can modify range now!) isn't really the problem. It's that this is all there is. Making planets black, doesn't make it more immersive. Hiding them until you are six inches away, doesn't make it more immersive.

What is missing, essentially, is everything we have ever done as part of exploration. Making things take longer, doesn't improve them. Making things more engaging so the time investment is returned in enjoyment and experience, is improving them. Using the tools we have, in creative ways, using the SRV to map or scan formations, skimming atmo to sample, there are endless examples of ways to make the time investment mean something.

I don't honestly know if Frontier just have it in them, to do this. To fundimentally rewrite how exploration works; arguably? It's too late to change some core functions. But they could build on it, could right some of the wrongs, and add reasons for seeing, doing and leaving. Frontier can use existing elements in new ways, extend on what they have.

And once they've done that? They have a blueprint for addressing missions, and combat, and trade, and everything else we do.

edit: simplified.
 
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Change it up by all means, but gotta say I would miss the sound effect if removed. New implementation should include the same sound in some capacity.
 
But no. We get to honk. And scan stuff from 6 inches away. That's not exploration. It's just a time sink. The issue, friend, isn't the tools, or the actor; it's the very stage they are used on.

It's actually both. The tools need to be better in order to allow better interaction with the stage. Simply improving the stage isn't enough.
 
It's actually both. The tools need to be better in order to allow better interaction with the stage. Simply improving the stage isn't enough.

Stage, then tools; breaking the tools and ignoring the stage makes them meaningless. Agree, with the caveat that destroying one, isn't the implicit requirement to improve the other. The ADS could be come redundant, but that requires more than a few black planets and range reductions. If it was so very simple, Mengy, Frontier would have already done this.

No, I am pretty comfortable with the notion that Frontier just don't know how to approach this, and when they proffer some thought and ask questions here, they are quickly overcome with feedback, that they know isn't achievable and would enthuse the very few, at a cost for the very many.

We do need to be realistic about what Frontier can do; and I'd settle for just little more interaction with the environment, with more value from what we have, be it DSS, ADS, AFMU or SRV, as a first step.
 
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Stage, then tools; breaking the tools and ignoring the stage makes them meaningless. Agree, with the caveat that destroying one, isn't the implicit requirement to improve the other. The ADS could be come redundant, but that requires more than a few black planets and range reductions. If it was so very simple, Mengy, Frontier would have already done this.

No, I am pretty comfortable with the notion that Frontier just don't know how to approach this, and when they proffer some thought and ask questions here, they are quickly overcome with feedback, that they know isn't achievable and would enthuse the very few, at a cost for the very many.

We do need to be realistic about what Frontier can do; and I'd settle for just little more interaction with the environment, with more value from what we have, be it DSS, ADS, AFMU or SRV, as a first step.

Yep. New tools changes nothing about what happens at the destination, and it's the gameplay at the destination that needs the most attention in the short term. In other words, the reason(s) to land and investigate.

I want to point out, more directly this time, that the only planets we currently have any real interaction opportunities with are (for the most part), the least interesting ones. I really don't envy Frontier in the task of making Exploration more engaging without adding more planet types, because I just don't see that they can really do very much, other than Heat Maps. As I said earlier, Heat Maps for various things would be immediately beneficial to pretty much all Commanders, but I have a feeling that would require changes to how the nodes are generated, and that might not be a simple thing to change.

This is neither here nor now, but the more I think about it, the more I feel that Frontier isn't going to be able to open new planet types one at a time. The next 3 in line are probably gas giants, light atmo, and geologically active worlds, and I think Frontier needs to open at least 2 of those (at the same time) as soon as is feasible. Once we have more planet types to interact with that have more things going on to provide gameplay (and not just for Explorers), that is when Exploration will start to become more engaging, and not before. That would be the time for new tools (and perhaps new SRV types) as well.

Riôt
 
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SANDRO. All I can say is that everyone has been going on about this incessantly for a long time now - that is - anyone not involved in simple pew pew. FOR THE LOVE OF GOD WOULD YOU GUYS DO THIS???
-----------PLEASE!-----------

What would you like them to do exactly?
 
I was looking at the galaxy map just now, and reminded myself of just how BIG this galaxy actually is.

Then it kinda hit me. Out of all the lore, the missions we see and the tools we have, I don't recall any of the powers in the game showing the remotest interest in anything beyond their immediate bubble.

I mean, sure the bubble is a big place. But clearly, not big enough, as we now have Colonia. So why do we never see exploration missions? Surely the Empire would be interested in moving to a new sector of space, to exploit and control new areas of space? Or perhaps the Federation would like to search for new, exotic scientific discoveries to abuse and manipulate?

Can't this then be the basis for a whole new exploration mechanic? Long term missions, with multiple parameters to fulfill, for a large payoff and increase in Exploration ranking (or some, new reward)? And because these missions are requiring specific achievements, then it's only right that these ships are fitted with new Science Modules, with top sciencing stuff that the Canonn guys would salivate over.

Let's say, for just an example, that the Federation Science Council, have decided that they want to look for a new, more efficient source of energy. Their top men have discovered that certain types of star might have a better form of Hydrogen than we are currently using, but they need to find systems with certain types of elements for this to work. Because they can't find any within 15000ly of the bubble, they need long-distance science explorers to find systems with these specific elements and stars.

So, obviously we already have the ability to map star types. So you would plan your journey using these stars as your search parameters. The Federation Science Council have already determined that the nearer to the galactic core, the more likely these stars are to contain the elements required. So you might pop to Sag A* by way of these particular stars.

When you reach a system, you honk as you would normally to reveal all the bodies in the system. Then, using a spectroscope scanner, you would scan the main star for signs of these elements. If it is a match to what you're looking for, well, that's already some financial gain added to your final mission reward. Next, you need to see if the system is stable enough to b used for any future mining operations - the mission parameters dictate the requirement of a planetary body, no further away than 150ls from the main star, which orbits a gas giant which contains enough Hydrogen to keep things running for a few months while any base is constructed. So you search and confirm if this is the case. To ensure viability, you need to land and take a ground sample in your SRV, which would would do.

That would just be one part of their mission. They'd also like to find evidence of new life, and the Science Module is capable of scanning any planet and returning the likelihood of life being possible on the surface. Then, using the data provided by the scanner, you would venture onto the surface and see what life there is, fungal or bacterial. Or other. Other would be very interesting...

The mission would be required to run for a set number of light years from the system it was given from, and this would be a large number. Obviously, there would be many mission types, from shorter range which would last just a few days, to epic journeys of discovery lasting for several months. Eitherway, these would offer FAR more variety and purpose than the honk, jump, refuel we have now. And it might give Frontier's story writers some platform to introduce new branches of lore and legend.
 
I think DNA-Decay was on the right track back in #126
These kind of ideas could legitimately be added as part of Orbital scan and/or Surface Exploration features without removing/changing the Honk (BDS/IDS/ADS) System.

It would add to the depth some seem to be looking for, and provide reasons for surface exploration perhaps.

For example: A standard non-orbital DSS would reveal the same information it does now and may reveal some of the more significant surface features (identifiable from a long range 3d scan)... but... in order to get the full seismic, geological, resource density, and radiation details you might need to use a combination of (perhaps multiple) Orbital scans to identify the primary POIs and then deploy an appropriate exploration SRV (maybe some new SRV types in support of this) to perform a detailed survey at those POIs.

The idea of using probes for these things just feels wrong to me. That mechanic may have worked in Mass Effect but it feels out of place with Elite.
 

REMOVE
THE TEXT SIZE AND COLOUR OPTIONS

That is all.


shutterstock_291431081.jpg
 
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