Explorers : would you consider giving up on the infinite honk for...?

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

Probably not the first to say it but infinite ADS needs to go.

Get rid of Basic, Intermediate, and Advanced and just use the rating system that every other module uses.

An A-rated Disco Scanner would still have a large range (somewhere in the 100-500k ls range), but what gets discovered would depend on how big/bright an object is and how far away it is.

E.g. You might discover a secondary star 80,000ls away but not any planets around it.

The trade off for nerfing the ADS would be Scanning Limpets.
Fire off a limpet at a distant target and it would SC out there (faster than your ship) and perform a disco scan, returning the info to you. Then you decide if you want to go out there for detailed scans and limpet recovery.

While we're at it, what is the actual point of the honk. Just automate it.

I'm not sure that your Scanning Limpet idea really counts as a 'trade off'.

Firstly, you're giving the same infinite range functionality as the ADS, you're just making it take a longer time - so I'm not sure what that achieves.
Secondly, either: you have a fixed number of limpets in which case I'd still have to fly to the distant star to collect my limpet, so why bother?
Or: limpets are synthesizable and I send them out willy-nilly thereby making the whole process just a time sink. Unless I don't have horizons, in which case there is no trade off whatsoever and you're just gating exploration behind DLC, which seems mean.

So, perhaps you'll be the one to tell my why having the IDS perform the partial scan some people seem so keen on, and leaving the ADS alone, is unacceptable.

 

[Ziljan]

Nobody is arguing against greater depth.
We're arguing about whether hiding part of the system adds to depth or just wastes time.

Maybe you can explain why using the IDS instead of the ADS is not a viable option.

I think you're missing the gist entirely. I'm not making a simple IDS vs ADS argument. I am saying that the best scanner mechanic would be a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT one with infinite discovery range (for sufficiently bright objects) that was manually operated and gave a level of details based on:

1) distance (physical angular resolution limits)
2) quality of equipment (speed and size based angular resolution limits)
3) skill - the ability to focus machinery like a camera and pick the optimal frequency ranges to match the signal emitted by a particular object

This scanner should also work on any stars that were visible in your local sky.

Rewards for the scanned data would then be based on the quality of the scan which would be based on the 3 items listed above. So if you chose to get closer to an object, then your CR reward would increase, landing and driving on a planet would be the closest scan possible, and more you drove on a planet and scanned it, the greater the reward for the data. So you could even become the foremost expert on a single planet.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

I think you're missing the gist entirely. I'm not making a simple IDS vs ADS argument. I am saying that the best scanner mechanic would be a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT one with infinite discovery range (for sufficiently bright objects) that was manually operated and gave a level of details based on:

1) distance (physical angular resolution limits)
2) quality of equipment (speed and size based angular resolution limits)
3) skill - the ability to focus machinery like a camera and pick the optimal frequency ranges to match the signal emitted by a particular object

This scanner should also work on any stars that were visible in your local sky.

The way I see it, various people have suggested ways of limiting the ADS so as to NOT show everything - because they feel that that will improve their experience of exploration.

My contention is that there is no reason to limit the ADS, when the BDS and IDS could be modified to provide exactly the functionality that 'limited honk' supporters are requesting, whilst letting the 'infinite honk' fans continue to enjoy their exploration.

So, if this 'best scanner mechanic' that you describe were implemented in the IDS, is there any reason why you would continue to use the ADS?

 

[MadDogMurdock]

The 'use the IDS' argument is pretty weak.
It's the 'discovery' mechanic itself that stinks, more than it being infinite with the ADS.

 

[etarm]

Forgot to mention in my earlier post that I'd really (REALLY) like a 3D rotatable view of a planetary system with the planets in their current (scanned) locations, so that I can plot the best route to survey them all. The current planetary system map, while good for seeing the types of planets in the system, is really bad for planning routes, and while I suppose it would be possible to do this from looking out the cockpit, there should really be an on-board tool to do this for us. BTW, ran into an excellent example of missed exploration opportunities tonight -- discovered two systems where most of the planets were in the orbital plane, but two bodies in one system and one in the next had inclinations over 60 degrees. In the case of the system with two highly inclined planets (which were the outermost two), perhaps they passed close enough to perturb each other, but in the system with only one body out of the plane, what caused that lone orbit to tilt? Did a rogue planet or star pass close enough to pull it out of the plane or was there another cause? Who knows, but interesting enough that perhaps there could be clues if there was more to exploration than honk-scan-scan-scan-scan...scan--jump--honk-scan-scan-scan-scan...

 

[lenna]

I think you're missing the gist entirely. I'm not making a simple IDS vs ADS argument. I am saying that the best scanner mechanic would be a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT one with infinite discovery range (for sufficiently bright objects) that was manually operated and gave a level of details based on:

1) distance (physical angular resolution limits)
2) quality of equipment (speed and size based angular resolution limits)
3) skill - the ability to focus machinery like a camera and pick the optimal frequency ranges to match the signal emitted by a particular object

This scanner should also work on any stars that were visible in your local sky.

I don't like this idea at all...

We are not talking about stellar body detection in terms of light years which is basically the kind of thing you seem to be indicating but rather only in terms of bodies with in a star system that is typically <1Ly in size (I have yet to see systems with radius's bigger than that).

Hutton Orbital is ~0.5Ly from the start point (IIRC) and the average large system is <500k Ls radius IME.

The discovery mechanic is fine IMO, what suggestions like Ziljan's seem to me to be is less an improvement and more an annoying time sink and the impact would be too wide ranging - it would not just affect explorers and would turn exploration into a very exclusive club which would be an EXTREMELY bad move on the part of FD IMO. The current Discovery Scanner mechanic is basically a long range radar/gravidar with some kind of on-board processing to reveal orbiting bodies based on a variety of factors, detailed surface scanning may be another matter entirely.

Improvements to the way point-and-scan surface/detail discovery works could be done along similar lines to that which Ziljan has indicated and would make more sense IMO... Bonus rewards could then be targeted on being the first to discover different aspects of a particular planetary body which perhaps requires orbital scanning the particular regions of bodies using the right sensors and perhaps sensor settings.

Long distance surface scanning could include hints as to whether a particular detected body includes certain valuable features and these hints could involve additional instrumentation but we are talking about perhaps extending the range of exploration equipment rather than nerfing/reinventing what we already have - except perhaps nerfing/reinventing the current DSS.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

I don't like this idea at all...

We are not talking about stellar body detection in terms of light years which is basically the kind of thing you seem to be indicating but rather only in terms of bodies with in a star system that is typically <1Ly in size (I have yet to see systems with radius's bigger than that).

Hutton Orbital is ~0.5Ly from the start point (IIRC) and the average large system is <500k Ls radius IME.

The discovery mechanic is fine IMO, what suggestions like Ziljan's seem to me to be is less an improvement and more an annoying time sink and the impact would be too wide ranging - it would not just affect explorers and would turn exploration into a very exclusive club which would be an EXTREMELY bad move on the part of FD IMO. The current Discovery Scanner mechanic is basically a long range radar/gravidar with some kind of on-board processing to reveal orbiting bodies based on a variety of factors, detailed surface scanning may be another matter entirely.

Improvements to the way point-and-scan surface/detail discovery works could be done along similar lines to that which Ziljan has indicated and would make more sense IMO... Bonus rewards could then be targeted on being the first to discover different aspects of a particular planetary body which perhaps requires orbital scanning the particular regions of bodies using the right sensors and perhaps sensor settings.

Long distance surface scanning could include hints as to whether a particular detected body includes certain valuable features and these hints could involve additional instrumentation but we are talking about perhaps extending the range of exploration equipment rather than nerfing/reinventing what we already have - except perhaps nerfing/reinventing the current DSS.

You have a comprehensive grasp of gameplay. I like it.

 

[tafkabb]

No, I'm not giving up my infinite single system-scanning honk.

 

[Iskariot]

My ideas for a more interesting system scan mechanic:

NEW EXPLORATION SCANNING MECHANIC
---------------------------------------
1 - You arrive in a system.
2 - You do the classic honk: The honk is now much more limited. It can only tell you that there are planets in the sytem, with no other information than their location and orbit relations. In the system map you might then only see blank spheres with a question mark.
3 - You then launch exploration probes (these can be manufactured in the ship) towards each stellar body.
TWO SCAN MODES: You can set such a probe to do a quick scan or a detailed scan of the planetary bodies and stars in a system. The detailed scan will take much more time (4x?) to complete than a quick scan. The quick scan will give you the same information about planets as the honk does now: planet types, star types, asteroid rings etc. The detailed scan will be comparable to information you get when you do a detailed surface scan.

You get an audio warning when scan information of a probe comes in and in the system map you now see the planet displayed in full glory, with all the information.

There might be a limit to the number of probes you can have on board. Perhaps you need a planetary probe hangar (like the planetary vehicle hangar). The size of this hangar influences the number of probes you can have on board and launch at one time. Perhaps 4 probes in a size 2 hangar, 6 probes in a size 3 hangar, 8 probes in a size 4 hangar, and so on.
The hangar not only stores the probes, but can also manufacture them.

I am not sure whether exploration probes should be one-way devices, or perhaps should return to the ship to be reused. I think Perhaps the cmdr should have a choice whether to abandon his probes, or wait for their return. Having to make choices in a game is always good.

It would be advisable to do detailed scanning of some stellar bodies yourself (like you do now) while your probes scan the other bodies.
In general this will save considerable time, because you now have drones who do a large part of the scanning.

It would be very nice if you could program an exploration probe to explore multiple bodies in a system.

ORRERY MAP
------------
It would be very convenient to have the orrery system map. An orrery map would make it easier to decide which planets you want to send a probe to and which ones you want to visit yourself, because you can easily see the lay-out of the star system in an orrery map.
I think the implementation of the orrery map map should now be a priority, because it could be a central element in several very interesting game mechanics in Elite Dangerous.
I feel the exploration mechanic desperately needs the orrery map to be able to develop into a more mature feature in the game.

LAUNCHING A PROBE
--------------------
One would right click a planet/moon/star in the (orrery) system map and then see 2 options: "launch probe for quick scan", or "launch probe for detailed scan".

RELATED MECHANICS
--------------------
You can scan planetary surfaces from orbit to reveal stuff on a planet like alien bases, general mineable areas etc. This ties in with a planetary mining mechanic I would like to see added to the game. Sadly there currently is no real planetary mining mechanic at all.
I would like to be able to do an orbital scan for mineable areas on planets. This scan gives an idea of what type of material/ore is to be expected in a certain area. Then I would like to go down to the planet with a specialized mining srv to pinpoint the actual place I need to do the mining and then deploy some sort of mining drill device to extract the ore.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

The 'use the IDS' argument is pretty weak.
It's the 'discovery' mechanic itself that stinks, more than it being infinite with the ADS.

So change the mechanic, while retaining the 'instant' see everything functionality of the ADS.

 

[Ziljan]

I don't like this idea at all...

We are not talking about stellar body detection in terms of light years which is basically the kind of thing you seem to be indicating but rather only in terms of bodies with in a star system that is typically <1Ly in size (I have yet to see systems with radius's bigger than that).

Hutton Orbital is ~0.5Ly from the start point (IIRC) and the average large system is <500k Ls radius IME.

The discovery mechanic is fine IMO, what suggestions like Ziljan's seem to me to be is less an improvement and more an annoying time sink and the impact would be too wide ranging - it would not just affect explorers and would turn exploration into a very exclusive club which would be an EXTREMELY bad move on the part of FD IMO. The current Discovery Scanner mechanic is basically a long range radar/gravidar with some kind of on-board processing to reveal orbiting bodies based on a variety of factors, detailed surface scanning may be another matter entirely.

Improvements to the way point-and-scan surface/detail discovery works could be done along similar lines to that which Ziljan has indicated and would make more sense IMO... Bonus rewards could then be targeted on being the first to discover different aspects of a particular planetary body which perhaps requires orbital scanning the particular regions of bodies using the right sensors and perhaps sensor settings.

Long distance surface scanning could include hints as to whether a particular detected body includes certain valuable features and these hints could involve additional instrumentation but we are talking about perhaps extending the range of exploration equipment rather than nerfing/reinventing what we already have - except perhaps nerfing/reinventing the current DSS.

There is no "improvement" to Exploration gameplay that wouldn't add more steps to the process because the current mechanic is so bare bones that if it turned sideways it would vanish. Hence adding even 1 more phase to the process would potentially more than double the amount of thought required.

However, you may be surprised to realize that my suggestion would also take away existing tedium because the DSS would have infinite range, you would be able to surface scan every object from orbit around the main star. Though at that range the resolution would be lower so the scans would be worth less than a close up high resolution scan.

You would also be able to use the DSS "telescope" to ID stars in your cockpit window. Which is something explorers have long wished for.

 

[Gibbonici]

You know what I'd like to see? A dedicated exploration station on your ship, that you'd buy as a module like the passenger cabins and can be "entered" via the roles panel.

As well as giving us more to our ships than just a chair (come on, who wouldn't like to see a different part of their ship?), it could provide various interfaces for a set of minigames or what-not that provide extra scan information, such as
* marking areas where materials or interesting sites can be found on planet surfaces,
* deeper level scans on stars, planets, rings for more payout,
* analysing samples gathered by mining or by SRVs for more payout
* you get the picture

All of this stuff you'd be able to do from a stationary position, maybe having to fly closer to more distant bodies depending on the rating of the module.

Keep the honk, integrate the detailed surface scanner with some of the exploration station functions, and it'd feel more like exploring on a proper exploration ship.

 

[Gibbonici]

There is no "improvement" to Exploration gameplay that wouldn't add more steps to the process because the current mechanic is so bare bones that if it turned sideways it would vanish. Hence adding even 1 more phase to the process would potentially more than double the amount of thought required.

Any extra phases should add more scan information, and require dedicated modules IMO.

The current bare-bones system could stay for smaller, less specialised exploration ships.

 

[Godsailsaqueen]

You know what I'd like to see? A dedicated exploration station on your ship, that you'd buy as a module like the passenger cabins and can be "entered" via the roles panel.

As well as giving us more to our ships than just a chair (come on, who wouldn't like to see a different part of their ship?), it could provide various interfaces for a set of minigames or what-not that provide extra scan information, such as
* marking areas where materials or interesting sites can be found on planet surfaces,
* deeper level scans on stars, planets, rings for more payout,
* analysing samples gathered by mining or by SRVs for more payout
* you get the picture

All of this stuff you'd be able to do from a stationary position, maybe having to fly closer to more distant bodies depending on the rating of the module.

Keep the honk, integrate the detailed surface scanner with some of the exploration station functions, and it'd feel more like exploring on a proper exploration ship.

Very cool stuff. too cool to be implemented though

 

[Crank Larson]

Haven't really followed this thread too much, but I'd be happy to give up the infinite honk for almost any improved exploration mechanic. So long as all the planets can be found, the fun should be in the finding. Honking isn't fun. I don't even understand why I have to keep the fire button pressed... Once I've pressed it, the scanner should keep going until it has a result!

 

[Cosmo]

Hello Commanders!

For what it's worth, I personally wouldn't mind removing the infinite honk, just as I'd like to see the removal of the basic stellar scan that forces you to fly close to get any data. I would like to see processes that were a little more involved (and cool looking/feeling) with regards to Commanders actually having to do something, whilst minimising uncessessary super cruise travel time. But this is just me musing. Like the karma system, exploration (and extraction) is something that we'll hopefully be getting into in some more depth in the forums.

Yes please make it like this cool concept art.

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...ace-scanner-to-display-materials-and-quantity

 

[SciTrekker]

Very cool stuff. too cool to be implemented though

Someone once said: "It always seems impossible until it's done."

 

[Deareim]

Hello Commanders!

For what it's worth, I personally wouldn't mind removing the infinite honk, just as I'd like to see the removal of the basic stellar scan that forces you to fly close to get any data. I would like to see processes that were a little more involved (and cool looking/feeling) with regards to Commanders actually having to do something, whilst minimising uncessessary super cruise travel time. But this is just me musing. Like the karma system, exploration (and extraction) is something that we'll hopefully be getting into in some more depth in the forums.

why having implemented this way at the first place then ? Don t need to be a genius to realize it would be boring.

 

[Mengy]

why having implemented this way at the first place then ? Don t need to be a genius to realize it would be boring.

Frontier's original plans for exploration were incredible during the alpha and DDF days before Elite 1.0. When the game released with very lackluster exploration many people were very saddened, but Frontier insisted that they were temporary mechanics and would be improved after release. I can only guess that exploration took a back seat due to time contraints, or maybe they just didn't feel it was worth dev time. Whatever the reason, it's been severly neglected by Frontier.


Of course, here we are 2.5 years later and still waiting. However, at least it sounds like we might see some movement on this matter in 2018, so for the first time there is hope at least. I hope Frontier does a great job improving exploration, and I hope it brings a lot of players back who have already given up and left.

 

[Zulu Romeo]

Not really read the thread but my own thoughts and ideas. Feel free to nick them off me Sandro, for I might have nicked them off others unwittingly...

The infinite ADS thing was really way too powerful for its own good. How to improve and balance it though? By breaking the process of scanning down to tiers of resolution according to distance and quality of scanning equipment and each with appropriate tiers of pay. There is precedence for newer things appearing with distance to a body, such as points of interest popping up when you get to below 1000Ls of them.

The idea is summed up hence:

Tier 1 - Discovery Scan ping, using the same ranges as before, giving locations of "blips" but not what, with a scanty monetary value
Tier 2 - System scan identification of blips (equivalent of current discovery scans but by moving to and scanning the blips)
Tier 3 - Surface Scanning at surface visual distance (equivalent of normal surface scanning now but closer range)
Tier 4 - Detailed Surface Scanning at surface visual distance (equivalent of Detailed Surface Scanning but closer range)
Tier 5 - Serial very-detailed surface mapping of the entire surface of an astronomical object according to exposure to the scanner

I think letting the Disco scanners pinpoint the existence of something out there would be useful, but to identify that something you need to fly up to it. Keep the ping ranges the same though. This is Tier 1, and here objects appear as grid blanks on the system map and as a question mark on your target hologram.

How far do you fly up to those blips? Enough (with balancing) relative distance in accordance with mass to give a rough view of the object of the sort of resolution the ADS does now, maybe even to the distance normal scanning reaches at present. This is Tier 2. At this point the object appears like it does following a disco ping nowadays on the system maps and target holograms, a localised equivalent of the pansystemic "honk" today.

Detailed scan? You'd need to fly even closer. Perhaps close enough for visual identification of the surfaces from your unenhanced eyeballs in the cockpit. Resolution depends on if you have a DSS (Tier 4) or not (Tier 3).

Even more detail? You'd need to be in orbit, and then perhaps engage in Very Detailed Surface Scans, and multiple at different parts of the globe, to cover the whole surface and pick out places of interest such as Thargoid structures or Guardian sites or geysers or abandoned camps or brain plants or whatever. Tier 5, the surveyor's tier.

So what, you may ask. What would constitute a Discovery tag? Well, planetary body disco tags will still need the (detailed) surface scan level resolution of tier 3 and above. However, then if a Tier 5 scan picks out something interesting, then that surface landmark discovery is yours if you sell it.

Also, what about undiscovered bodies already with stations? The stations may have a limited amount of exploration data (no idea what their excuse is ) but the same rules can apply.

Payments? They scale to Tiers, but with Tier 5 you earn more by scanning more of the body surface, up to 100% of the surface. There are also survey bonuses for scanning and handing in complete data for a system (doesn't have to be all at one time but only if your data set for the system is complete according to your map and UC's records), bonuses for points of interest, and of course the individual First Discovery bonuses (but no bonus for getting ALL first discoveries in the system ).

But wait. There's more.

For then comes Tier X, extra special close ups of points of interest and astronomical bodies. This is where your camera suite comes in. Unobstructed and clear pics of a feature can be carried with you and delivered like data to UC, but these are scrutinised by a real person on the other end and paid accordingly. Why, your contribution could even make it to Galnet, or the newsletter!

Next, Tier Y, salvage of any interesting things, covered to some extent in 2.4 announcements under Salvage, but which could also spring a hidden mission on you - as could any of these things. Completing a mini mission could net an exotic reward of often priceless value - Tier Z.

Oh, and the reason to nerf the discovery scanners' resolution? They emit so much radiation right now that the Thargoids hate it when you use them.

.....

Other ideas I think should be included:

Exploration black boxes - dropped when your ship blows up. Anybody can pick them up, and you can either hand them in by preserving the original discovery tags but keeping the money the lost Explorer should have got, or risk a pay cut by claiming the discoveries as your own (pay cut because UC will see the data is tampered with and "damaged" ).
EDIT - on second thoughts, the value of the black box would be identical to the value of the data within, including discovery tags - but as the data files are damaged, the maps cannot be updated and no discoveries can be apportioned to anybody from it. It may, however, spark rumours of things out there and even trigger a mission or community goal or three.

Spy missions! Building on the Tier X idea, bring back spy photography missions from Frontier Elite 2, but this time using your free camera on the camera suite. Picture quality and therefore reward depends on proximity to the target without getting caught and blown up (getting caught gets you a rep drop and pay cut for blowing your cover, getting blown up fails the mission for destroying your data). May or may not be linked to a subjective player/dev judge, we'll see.

And on a similar note, nature photography missions which are essentially missions to tourist hot-spots or natural features, which pay extra for spectacular images - and even may bring fame.

Dark System Limpets - launched from only the largest ships (the controller can only fit on class 7 and above), these highly advanced limpet drones scry the local witchspace waves and can search for and pinpoint dark systems, rogue planets without a primary star, etc. at a preset light year range. Note that excessive use of them may make Thargoids VERY upset...