Explorers : would you consider giving up on the infinite honk for...?

[Para Handy]

I would not have minded there not being an "infinite range" scanner from the start but it is a bit rich to think of removing it whilst allowing those people (me included) that have benefited from it to keep those benefits, credits, tags and ranking.

Too late and too complicated for this to happen I feel.

 

[Omgzzwtf]

First let me say that, as an explorer, I really appreciate the viability the new credit payouts offer for my time, I did it without this added incentive in the past, and would probably continue to do it even without it, but it's nice, that's all I'm saying.

Second, I would really love some new gameplay mechanics to use in exploring, you mentioned probes, which would be cool, but you also have to remember that a probe is going to be pretty small, and as such, might not be big enough to fit an FSD required to go into super cruise. The sidewinder is the smallest ship in the Elite universe that can fit one, so barring a huge breakthrough in technology, probes big enough to fit an FSD wouldn't fit in any but the biggest ships (e.g. Anaconda, Clipper, and Federal Corvette).

I don't oppose the idea of probes or drones, only the purpose for them that you describe. It would be cool to be able to send a probe to the surface of a planet that can be left behind for a time to scan for surface features, life forms, weather patterns, etc. after you've left the system, uploading this information in packages to your ship as you travel the galaxy. This enhanced data could add to the value of the scan data and provide a much more in-depth look at the surface, subsurface, or atmosphere of planets that aren't currently landable.

Also, It seems to me that what you're describing is more on par with how Eve Online does scanning, a series of probes sent out from your ship to detect signals and triangulate their origins. This wouldn't work in Elite partially because of the reason I stated above, and also because probe scanning takes more time, which is fine in Eve, since there are nowhere near as many systems to cover and you're scanning for completely different things. In Elite, I'm sure I don't have to tell you, explorers can cover many thousands of lightyears in trips taking anywhere from a day to months before they return to the bubble to restock, and anything that slows down the discovery process at this point would be counter-productive.

 

[Godsailsaqueen]

First let me say that, as an explorer, I really appreciate the viability the new credit payouts offer for my time, I did it without this added incentive in the past, and would probably continue to do it even without it, but it's nice, that's all I'm saying.

Second, I would really love some new gameplay mechanics to use in exploring, you mentioned probes, which would be cool, but you also have to remember that a probe is going to be pretty small, and as such, might not be big enough to fit an FSD required to go into super cruise. The sidewinder is the smallest ship in the Elite universe that can fit one, so barring a huge breakthrough in technology, probes big enough to fit an FSD wouldn't fit in any but the biggest ships (e.g. Anaconda, Clipper, and Federal Corvette).

I don't oppose the idea of probes or drones, only the purpose for them that you describe. It would be cool to be able to send a probe to the surface of a planet that can be left behind for a time to scan for surface features, life forms, weather patterns, etc. after you've left the system, uploading this information in packages to your ship as you travel the galaxy. This enhanced data could add to the value of the scan data and provide a much more in-depth look at the surface, subsurface, or atmosphere of planets that aren't currently landable.

Also, It seems to me that what you're describing is more on par with how Eve Online does scanning, a series of probes sent out from your ship to detect signals and triangulate their origins. This wouldn't work in Elite partially because of the reason I stated above, and also because probe scanning takes more time, which is fine in Eve, since there are nowhere near as many systems to cover and you're scanning for completely different things. In Elite, I'm sure I don't have to tell you, explorers can cover many thousands of lightyears in trips taking anywhere from a day to months before they return to the bubble to restock, and anything that slows down the discovery process at this point would be counter-productive.

Thank you, I must say I did play some Eve but I wasn't particularly thinking of it (interesting you felt it though) - the whole post was rather born of an old DDF thread which implied you'd have to probe your way in galmap (thinking of one directional probes with a large area of discovery), also applied to the systems. And as to the mechanic itself, I pictured it basically as a kind of prospector limpet in supercruise. It's simplistic to say the least but it's the basis that seemed the more plausible to implement.

Edit : judging on the technical lore aspect of the probe, I'd say their FSD capabilities would be downgraded - they only go in one direction, they don't jump, they have a limited lifespan. So their size could be greatly reduced in my book at least. But I'm no ED physicist

 

[Watcher]

Hello Commanders!
For what it's worth, I personally wouldn't mind removing the infinite honk, just as I'd like to see the removal of the basic stellar scan that forces you to fly close to get any data. I would like to see processes that were a little more involved (and cool looking/feeling) with regards to Commanders actually having to do something, whilst minimising uncessessary super cruise travel time. But this is just me musing. Like the karma system, exploration (and extraction) is something that we'll hopefully be getting into in some more depth in the forums.

Well that all sounds very positive. Even if you can't do those things knowing they are in mind and form something of an ideal is encouraging. Not that I don't have faith in you all but it is always nice to have that reinforced Thanks!

 

[Phoenix_Dfire]

Personally, I would like to keep the Infinite honk but it only shows planetary outlines, so you know there's a planet or something there but not know what's there.

However, I would like something like scanner limpets (Probes) which you could target a planet, launch the probe and, after it flies off and gets into orbit, gives you the details of the planet dependent on the type of probe used. The probes could be synthesized from materials but depending on the recipe determines its type;

• Basic Probe - Planet size, type
• Intermediate Probe - Gives full atmosphere readout, detects basic minerals over 20% of the planet.
• Advanced probe - Gives full readouts including any life, all minerals (including those under 20%)

However, the downside is that if you're first to scan a planet with a probe, you don't get the first discovered tag, you only get that if you manually scan the planet.

What do you think?

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

As long as it doesn't go back to parallax exploring.

I'm never doing the spot-the-oddly-moving-pixel-that-might-not-be-there again.

 

[Phoenix_Dfire]

As long as it doesn't go back to parallax exploring.

I'm never doing the spot-the-oddly-moving-pixel-that-might-not-be-there again.

Parallax exploring?

 

[Zambrick]

Now that the time has come (or has been announced, let's say) for the reworking of core mechanics, and getting them closer to the original concepts...
Let's talk exploration.

Would you be ready to give up on your infinite scanner range and exhaustive galaxy map for more rewarding probing / navigation gameplay? Rewarding in terms of money/rank/whatever else of course, but also in terms of feeling. Of course you can't be left in the dark and just downgrade to the intermediate discovery scanner now - it would feel like artifical handicap. But there could be modules that detect unfound gravitationnal perturbations... probes to launch that would detect planetary bodies and their surfaces, even system-scaled scanners ala SRV... To an extent, there could be secret systems in galmap, for you to find, with one-knows-what-tool.

I reckon some things can't be changed. You can't remove something the player base is used to - for nothing at least. I'm just trying to know if that particular godly honk and the ease of discovery is that important to you. Not saying exploring is easy though - but it's more a matter of endurance, most of the time, than navigational flair (ok, tbh there is true navigationnal flair in certain expeditions reaching really isolated stars).

Your thoughts?

Edit : reading through the thread, I need to clarify that I do not advocate for its removal. I'd just like to know your advice on it and other methods.

The Infinite Honk will have to remain for the time being. I dont know if making changes to exploration without more than one kind planet/moon type is accessible.

Explorers need tools to find anomalies in space as well as items on planets. We need to be able to fly around a planet scanning for various things. Surface structures, life, energy sources, material type, geological anomalies, and crash sites.

Everything else that would make exploration fun would fall more in line with Science Tools instead of exploration tools.

 

[andrewg_oz]

I think it was during one of the 2.1 betas, but whether by accident or design the ADS briefly resulted in revealing all the system bodies as black spheres and you needed to use the body scanner to find out what type of planet it was. That mechanic actually appealed to me and made some sense from a 'scientific' view. Lots of complaints were made at the time and the behaviour quickly reverted to the usual.

In a similar way I was disappointed when the detailed surface scanner started revealing the material composition of bodies. It made a lot of sense to me that if you want to find out what is on the surface of a planet, that you would need to go down there and prospect. I do like breaking out the SRV and shooting rocks as the mood takes me. Again, I know this would attract a lot of complaints.

Sometimes I wonder what people want from exploration. It seems most folks want more, of what I don't know, because if a suggestion involves more time it's almost universally shot down.

For me, the discovery scanner should just reveal that things are there and where to find them. You should have to fly up to the body to find out exactly what it is, and have to land on it and prospect to find what materials are there. Perhaps the extra depth could come from analysis data that indicates body type probabilities? eg you're likely to find a gas giant when you get there. Or heat maps that indicate where you're likely to find different materials, so when you go down there in your SRV you're already searching in places where you're going to quickly find the materials you're looking for.

 

[Godsailsaqueen]

Parallax exploring?

He's referring to the fact that close stars and planetary bodies are distinguishable from the rest of the landscape - they're slowly "moving", the further you go in supercruise. Of course that's not true, it's just your point of view that moves.
That's the way to find bodies your scanner did not find, at first. If you're interested in it. Now it's useless because an ADS is so cheap.

Good probing successions, btw.

 

[Marc_Hicks]

Although I am a casual explorer, I would probably take it on more seriously if the process was more interactive. I would love to see a more active scan system that can be used to narrow down the location of interesting sites on land-fall planets, & I'd like to see a system where collection & processing of samples from planets (be it solid, liquid and/or gaseous) was part of the exploration system-i.e. processing of geological samples collected from planet surfaces could add to the value of any exploration data for that planetary body, with geysers & fumeroles providing the most valuable samples of all.

 

[Marc_Hicks]

Personally, I would like to keep the Infinite honk but it only shows planetary outlines, so you know there's a planet or something there but not know what's there.

However, I would like something like scanner limpets (Probes) which you could target a planet, launch the probe and, after it flies off and gets into orbit, gives you the details of the planet dependent on the type of probe used. The probes could be synthesized from materials but depending on the recipe determines its type;

• Basic Probe - Planet size, type
• Intermediate Probe - Gives full atmosphere readout, detects basic minerals over 20% of the planet.
• Advanced probe - Gives full readouts including any life, all minerals (including those under 20%)

However, the downside is that if you're first to scan a planet with a probe, you don't get the first discovered tag, you only get that if you manually scan the planet.

What do you think?

That would be a reasonable compromise, & make the sounds for different astronomical bodies much more pronounced.

Also, I think its high time that Belts were given at least some kind of value.

 

[Marshall...]

Sigh

Reading the OPs comments reminded me of way back in beta when i did a little exploration trip (after the Pill got replaced by the galaxy). I remember having to manually eyeball for stellar bodies, which at the time, i thought was a bit odd, but rather satisfying. I then picked up an ADS and was spoilt.

Looking for gravitational anomalies etc sounds awesome (keep the current ADS, but make certain things undescoverable, unless advanced techniques are used).

 

[cosmo-genesis]

No......... I would not want to give up the honk or detailed scanner........... I enjoy exploring and the solitude that goes with it

I would however agree that exploration is somewhat limited.................THREE scanners..........is that REALLY all we need to explore?

what happened to all the different wavelengths and frequencies ?

we could use more variety of scanners ......... alpha / beta / gamma wave......... infra red / ultra-violet / microwave...........maybe even ( though im sure technically it would be difficult ) hydrogen/alpha
think of all the fun alien mysteries FDEV could hide in the different frequencies

there are a couple other things i would like, though i suspect they wont happen

Inter-planetary probes..............................ship arrives in a system, launches a probe as the explorer begins scanning the planets.........the probe flies off and scans all the planets and moons that are landable, the probe searches for POI`s and relay`s any co-ords back to the ship................................. this would save explorers a lot of time as they wont have to fly over or land on every moon or planet to see if there is anything there

A dedicated science / exploration / research ship ( yes i know, dedicated ships are not a popular idea )
high fsd jump range / only 2 hardpoints ( class 2 ) multiple internal bays for all the new scanners / fighter bay and srv bay

I know a ship like this would not be to everyones tastes , but it would enable the science and alien mystery groups to quickly investigate any new alien sites and allow for more detailed information on whatever is found

just my opinion for what its worth

 

[Godsailsaqueen]

Looking for gravitational anomalies etc sounds awesome (keep the current ADS, but make certain things undescoverable, unless advanced techniques are used).

That's precisely what I tried to imply, but it wouldn't fit all players. I read that a good majority likes to have all the info, and not miss it. Then they choose if they use the info or not... That's why I implied to couple it with a scanner that would basically say "nope, you did not find everything in that system" (gravitational anomalies) and then you could go on your search or deem it sufficient enough.

A dedicated science / exploration / research ship ( yes i know, dedicated ships are not a popular idea )
high fsd jump range / only 2 hardpoints ( class 2 ) multiple internal bays for all the new scanners / fighter bay and srv bay

I know a ship like this would not be to everyones tastes , but it would enable the science and alien mystery groups to quickly investigate any new alien sites and allow for more detailed information on whatever is found

just my opinion for what its worth

I feel now is more the time than ever. dedicated multicrew ships, dedicated SLF ships, dedicated passenger ships... why not?

 

[DrNoesis]

As long as it doesn't go back to parallax exploring.

I'm never doing the spot-the-oddly-moving-pixel-that-might-not-be-there again.

Oh dear god... so many hours lost chasing part of the skybox.....

 

[kmwmtd]

Would you be ready to give up on your infinite scanner range and exhaustive galaxy map for more rewarding probing / navigation gameplay?

TBH, I'm less concerned about the mechanics of exploration than I am about the content. I think the current mechanisms do an OK job, though I'd like to see ADS become automatic on entering a system, and DSS become a little more informative. What I'd really like is a *lot* more variation in the things to find. I won't bore everyone with the list again - you all know the kinds of things we want to be finding. If exploration could be made interesting, surprising and perhaps more ... what's the word I'm looking for? ... dangerous rather than routine, I'd put up with a lot of changes to the mechanisms.

If I may wax lyrical for a moment (and I know it is too late for this, and probably not even technically practical) I would have liked the galaxy map to have been mostly empty, and the detail filled in as explorers visited more and more systems. Something like the "fog of war" seen in many military games, where the detail of the map is missing until someone takes a look. We would have known the general shape of the galaxy, and maybe a few million of the closest stars mapped by astronomers, but the rest would have to be filled in by explorers visiting the edge of 'known' space, maybe filling in all stars within, say, a 10 ly range. It has never felt right having a galaxy map with all 400 billion (?) stars located and labelled before anyone has even left the bubble.

 

[CMDR-AD]

I'd be pleased to have the infinite insta-scans gone, along with the fly-close-and-wait detail scans. Replacing them both with more interesting and enjoyable mechanics.

 

[Morbad]

As long as it doesn't go back to parallax exploring.

I'm never doing the spot-the-oddly-moving-pixel-that-might-not-be-there again.

I kinda liked parallax exploring...it's just that the time investment vs. pay off was in the toilet.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

That's precisely what I tried to imply, but it wouldn't fit all players. I read that a good majority likes to have all the info, and not miss it. Then they choose if they use the info or not... That's why I implied to couple it with a scanner that would basically say "nope, you did not find everything in that system" (gravitational anomalies) and then you could go on your search or deem it sufficient enough.

You still could have the planet to discover things which need advanced techniques.

I am one of those who wouldn't like to miss information. I like seeing the layout of the system without having to spent extra time on it. I feel we'd need more information than we have now to be able to make a supported decision to fly to, land on and continue exploring planets. I feel that the planets are a blank canvas right now, and it's the place where I see most opportunities for added features. From orbit to checking out a rock up close and personal.

Your scanner idea could work parallel to that in discovering bodies with lower mass like meteorites, really rich asteroids which would make traveling to it, and mining them bring exploration near the bubble again into play. For most explorers the first step is: get away from the bubble to find undiscovered systems. If the existing systems got more stuff to find, all the near Bubble systems would again be a target for explorers. This is especially beneficial to new explorers.

Oh dear god... so many hours lost chasing part of the skybox.....

I kinda liked parallax exploring...it's just that the time investment vs. pay off was in the toilet.

Opinions are like Sidewinders.