FDev: Credit rebalancing incoming, "more reward for higher risk" activities

[Alien]

I shudder when I hear them saying "we are listening to our community". What community are they talking about? As if we all would speak with one voice. What they can possibly mean is a (perceived or real doesn't really matter) majority, and that are pretty much people like you: the mainstream. They definitely wouldn't listen to me for instance, as I would happily toss out my 11000 hours and 7 years of progress out of the window for a true and meaningful rebalance at any time. Anything else wouldn't make much sense without a total wipe. But since this isn't going to happen, all we can realistically expect are some minor tweaks at best.

They don't listen to me either.
I can tell you who Frontier have probably listened to, names like (but not limited to) Obsidian Ant, Yamiks, Lave Radio, Hutton Truckers, Buur Pit, Ghost Giraffe, Psykit, MalForTheWin, MalicVR, Father Bill ... all these people are streamers and Youtubers, sometimes called Content Creators or even Influencers. The likes of us on the forum, we don't get listened to.

 

[Kestrel71]

Remember when they tried to rebalance mining around the last update? Now we're on patch 6, the PWS points backwards, and core mining is a bust. This is going to end well

Exactly. This is going to be YET ANOTHER colossal F**K up by FDEV, another massive nerf to mining, another slew of bugs dumped into the game, double the grind for half the reward. I have ZERO faith in FDEV to deliver anything remotely close to what they're talking about.

 

[Kestrel71]

I heard they will retroactively nerf all mining payments, so if you only mined to get a Carrier, say goodbye.

Well, at that point, people will simply walk away from the game. You don't get to put rewards out there, let them sit at that level for months, have people commit the time to earn those rewards and then take them away from people who legitimately earned them based on the criteria that were laid out. I'm an early backer with lifetime upgrades but that would be a game-ender for me. I'd uninstall it and never play it again - there would be no possible way to entice me back into the game at that point.

 

[Kestrel71]

I hope they nerf mining and make things like combat that isn't one thing on the mission board not pay garbage but this is Frontier so for all I know they are going to balance everything by turning off the server until Odyessy

Mining has been nerfed, nerfed again, nerfed yet again, nerfed to death and then nerfed one last time with a complete bolloxing of the PWA for good measure. Mining needs to be BUFFED (not the payouts, but the availability of commodities in the NotSpots. The other activities like combat ABSOLUTELY need a significant boost to the payouts, though mining SHOULD continue to be the biggest payout because it is the one activity that generates new wealth - that's how the world works. Mining companies get exceedingly rich, soldiers do not.

BUT, this is FDEV so, OF COURSE, they'll use the only trick they know and nerf the hell out of everything so that nothing makes money while at the same time breaking key gameplay.

 

[Alien]

Exactly. This is going to be YET ANOTHER colossal F**K up by FDEV, another massive nerf to mining, another slew of bugs dumped into the game, double the grind for half the reward. I have ZERO faith in FDEV to deliver anything remotely close to what they're talking about.

I would say the same, but I honestly think things have improved when Arthur joined Frontier. I honestly think he's relaying to them what we are discussing where before (no disrespect to Stephen, Paul, Bruce or anyone else at Frontier) we could repeat over and over what we considered wrong and it was like swimming through custard.

 

[norlin]

OMG no! That's not about "rebalancing", and definitely it can't be fixed "one by one"…

Fdevs, thanks for the effort, but you did not understand the issue.

The only actual way to FIX the issue is not about minor fixes (and especially not with nerfs), rather about implementing a working economy model for the whole game.
You know, player-driven.

Any other "fixes" will only lead to frustration and new ways for abusing the game features.

 

[Ydiss]

Only the Elite Dangerous community can muster a 12 page flash thread of anger, anxiety and outrage following an announcement about fixing the game.

 

[Alien]

OMG no! That's not about "rebalancing", and definitely it can't be fixed "one by one"…

Fdevs, thanks for the effort, but you did not understand the issue.

The only actual way to FIX the issue is not about minor fixes (and especially not with nerfs), rather about implementing a working economy model for the whole game.
You know, player-driven.

Any other "fixes" will only lead to frustration and new ways for abusing the game features.

Let me share my opinion here, having been here a while (I don't want it to sound like I am boasting, but look at my join date) Frontier will make changes to their games (not just ED) that they consider to be necessary. Yes we can give them feedback, but if Frontier decide this is what they need to change, they WILL change it.

What I suggest we do now, learning about a rebalancing incoming, is to wait and see what changes they are going to make. When we see those changes, then we can give them feedback. And yes, speculation and voicing our concerns in the meantime, is perfectly ok.

 

[george_mb]

Brace for impact! Lately, simple and quick changes usually equal more broken than fixed!

Here's my recommendations to them:

1. Light nerf to laser mining since people need to pay for carriers. It really too bad carriers can't break even.

Yes, I doubt Fdev will apply a "light" nerf. When they tried to nerf the egg, their first patch did not work, then the second patch was like a nuclear bomb with collateral damage: they nerfed LTD mining to the ground, nerfed tritium mining by accident (resulting in a tritium crisis) and also broke other mining tools. So their nerfs either: a) don't work or b) they just lay waste to everything.

I mean their ideas seem encouraging but based on recent history there is a greater chance that they break the game even more. I mean it took them at least 2-3 patches to fix the SLF/egg exploit. But now they are going to essentially rebalance the entire game? I am a bit skeptical they can pull it off. The next few months will be a rough ride.

 

[Rubbernuke]

That's because ATR use station weapons on their ships. They don't need to be engineered.

Once you have no shields via reverb the weapons are far too powerful for vanilla burst lasers at ranges like 5km.

 

[EWanderer]

OMG no! That's not about "rebalancing", and definitely it can't be fixed "one by one"…

Fdevs, thanks for the effort, but you did not understand the issue.

The only actual way to FIX the issue is not about minor fixes (and especially not with nerfs), rather about implementing a working economy model for the whole game.
You know, player-driven.

Any other "fixes" will only lead to frustration and new ways for abusing the game features.

While a player-driven economy is a nice thought. The original intent for ED appears to be a simulation of being a CMDR trying to get by, if anything we should be glad that this isn't realized if you read about the setting in the novels. Example Salome as royality is proud to just have an A-Graded Exploration Imperial Clipper.
So yeah if anything a first good step would be just to have an Economy where Risk-Reward works properly.

Like use the current Exploration Rewards as a Baseline. (Example 10 Million per hour)
Now take all of trading and put it either in a bracket above it (so Biowaste would be 10 Mil per Hour and everything else go up accordingly)
Alternatively take a few monentary rewards from trading and buff their BGS influence or add more engineering mats to trade missions.

Then go to mining and do the same with the lowest form of mining (lasering and balance it to the top of trading)
stack the rest of mining on top of that. maybe do the same I suggested with trading and allow for Mined Commodities to be traded for mats easier.

Now take combat and put that above mining.

Finally find a spot for salvage, piracy, smuggeling and what not else to tack them on that scale.
Then have everyone argue what the baseline should be and how much the margings should be. I dunnow put a cap of 500 Million per hour at the top scale and reserve that for I dunno Thargoid popping and slightly below that combat heist missions and assassionations.

 

[CMDR Karrde Sun]

Might even dare to watch the official frontier stream...

But i wouldn't write it off just yet. If they've chosen to allocate budget for balancing they might give a real go. There's a chance they might even in exasperation force themselves to think about what players experience and think about the game being played for once.

Sorry what i mean is everything in the past has been social media / marketing bandaids or just bandaids to new features. I don't remember them ever claiming to do a credit balance pass to this scale in the history of the game (could be wrong) but because of that its worth seeing what they come with.

 

[Jhaelen]

I wish I could remember where I heard it from, but thats what I've always operated on. In any case with Horizons folded down FD can make more capable options and loosen the templates a bit- I've only ever seen a very narrow slice of whats available.

I do remember this though, from From 2.1.03

Definitely bring this up again when there is a feedback thread for combat. With the Horizons fold down and the incoming rebalance, it makes too much sense for NPC ships to get an upgrade.

 

[Maymo]

They don't listen to me either.
I can tell you who Frontier have probably listened to, names like (but not limited to) Obsidian Ant, Yamiks, Lave Radio, Hutton Truckers, Buur Pit, Ghost Giraffe, Psykit, MalForTheWin, MalicVR, Father Bill ... all these people are streamers and Youtubers, sometimes called Content Creators or even Influencers. The likes of us on the forum, we don't get listened to.

It would be odd if they listened to a single individual. But when a content creator makes a point (ie mining being unbalanced) and 90% of their 1000’s of subscribers agree then it may be worth a look.

Same here on the forums, if enough of us are banging the same drum etc...

The thing that worries me is that they’ve left the game out of balance for so long this time that a great many new players are used to the inflated profits.

I fear the nerf hammer won’t be swung hard enough this time. Or worse, that more activities are raised up to match mining’s level, leaving us in some candy land utopia where everything is basically free...

...because one thing they aren’t likely to change is ship/module price.

 

[Kestrel71]

Only the Elite Dangerous community can muster a 12 page flash thread of anger, anxiety and outrage following an announcement about fixing the game.

Looking at the history of FDEV "fixing" the game, that seems like a VERY fair response. We've had 5 patches to the initial FC release and each patch has not only failed to meet its objectives, but has severely broken parts of the game. Each patch has exacerbated these problems and FDEV's final response was, basically, to throw their hands up in the air, admit that they didn't know how to fix things (for example. after acknowledging that tritium availability was fundamentally broken, explicitly stating that it should be at a certain pre-patch level, and making several tries to fix the bug, they just gave up and doubled the efficiency instead) and leave the game ever more broken.

 

[Ydiss]

Looking at the history of FDEV "fixing" the game, that seems like a VERY fair response. We've had 5 patches to the initial FC release and each patch has not only failed to meet its objectives, but has severely broken parts of the game. Each patch has exacerbated these problems and FDEV's final response was, basically, to throw their hands up in the air, admit that they didn't know how to fix things (for example. after acknowledging that tritium availability was fundamentally broken, explicitly stating that it should be at a certain pre-patch level, and making several tries to fix the bug, they just gave up and doubled the efficiency instead) and leave the game ever more broken.

Oh I definitely agree. Unilateral rage when a developer says they want to fix things is the absolute fair response.

 

[Kestrel71]

...
Like use the current Exploration Rewards as a Baseline. (Example 10 Million per hour)
Now take all of trading and put it either in a bracket above it (so Biowaste would be 10 Mil per Hour and everything else go up accordingly)
Alternatively take a few monentary rewards from trading and buff their BGS influence or add more engineering mats to trade missions.

Then go to mining and do the same with the lowest form of mining (lasering and balance it to the top of trading)
stack the rest of mining on top of that. maybe do the same I suggested with trading and allow for Mined Commodities to be traded for mats easier.

Now take combat and put that above mining.

Finally find a spot for salvage, piracy, smuggeling and what not else to tack them on that scale.
Then have everyone argue what the baseline should be and how much the margings should be. I dunnow put a cap of 500 Million per hour at the top scale and reserve that for I dunno Thargoid popping and slightly below that combat heist missions and assassionations.

That's a completely unrealistic and unworkable solution: it would make acquiring, maintaining and operating a fleet carrier virtually impossible and, like them or hate them, FCs are the one current "end-game" reward available. That may change with Odyssey, but it's where we are today.

There's no way that combat should pay more than mining. Mining is an activity that produces wealth - mining companies get embarrassingly rich, soldiers do not, nor should they. The payouts for mining are fine where they are. Other activities SHOULD pay more, but all you've done here is decide that combat should, arbitrarily, occupy the slot now taken by mining.

The fundamental problem here is that you're trying to fit all activities into credits per hour, and that's completely wrong. Combat should scale by risk (low-end NPC versus thargoid versus another human player). Mining should scale by quantity and rarity of commodity collected. Exploration should scale by number and relevance of discovered systems (i.e. are they rich in resources or suitable for terraforming). This is what we have today -- the problem is simply that the scales for non-mining activities are insufficient on both the low-end and the high-end, and THAT is what needs to be fixed.

 

[Kestrel71]

Oh I definitely agree. Unilateral rage when a developer says they want to fix things is the absolute fair response.

The problem isn't their desire to fix things, it's their ability to deliver.

FDEV have clearly shown, time and time and time again (FIVE patches, each worse than the last), that they have some very serious internal problems that are some combination of: lack of developer skill/knowledge, poor gameplay design, poor internal quality/testing practices, poor communication, poor quality (brittle, tightly-coupled) code.

 

[gooddoc]

Is this gonna mean Exploration rewards are gonna be again.......like in the early years of ED?

 

[Morbad]

Mining is an activity that produces wealth - mining companies get embarrassingly rich, soldiers do not, nor should they.

Most miners don't run mining companies, just like most soldiers and mercenaries don't run armies, sit as members of ruling juntas, or own private contractors. The bottom of the barrel of each are slaves, while the upper crust of each are billionaire directors or rulers of banana republics.

Don't need to produce wealth to become wealthy either. Few of the most wealthy individuals on Earth produce much of anything, and one of the biggest sectors of the modern economy is the financial sector which makes money off other people's money. Of course any real-world analogy would break down at this point when talking about Elite: Dangerous's pseudoeconomy, which is a purely gamist contrivance.

The fundamental problem here is that you're trying to fit all activities into credits per hour, and that's completely wrong. Combat should scale by risk (low-end NPC versus thargoid versus another human player). Mining should scale by quantity and rarity of commodity collected. Exploration should scale by number and relevance of discovered systems (i.e. are they rich in resources or suitable for terraforming).

I generally agree.

This is what we have today

Not so much. Demand for many commodities exceeds any and all rational need, and scan data is worth the same no matter how practical it is to actually exploit.