FDev: Credit rebalancing incoming, "more reward for higher risk" activities

You know what I'd love to see for the combat activities?

Bounty spawns to be affected by system state.
So if you just bookmark the same reliable haz-res next to your home base and bounty hunt in it forever in a perpetual state of civil liberty, the spawns won't be as lucrative as, say, actively seeking out a system in civil unrest or lockdown.

Put the "hunting" back in bounty hunting.
 
You know what I'd love to see for the combat activities?

Bounty spawns to be affected by system state.
So if you just bookmark the same reliable haz-res next to your home base and bounty hunt in it forever in a perpetual state of civil liberty, the spawns won't be as lucrative as, say, actively seeking out a system in civil unrest or lockdown.

Put the "hunting" back in bounty hunting.
Yup. Pirate Activity (Threat 5-6) need a major boost in that context.
 
Yup. Pirate Activity (Threat 5-6) need a major boost in that context.
while I'm at it I'd also love to see the BGS tweaked so that lever is less effective in CL too. Helping a faction fight off a crimewave should be more beneficial than flying around playing rentacop when they've already got a handle on things.
(and make it so bounties only count for BGS in the system you collect them in, grumble grumble)
 
Great stuff.

I remember when there was an outcry that combat mission stacking was giving players too many credits, so combat missions now don't pay hardly anything.

I have no interest in mining so I don't deserve to be able to earn credits.
 
Pfftt Surely mining is high risk enough already, just last week I had a limpet fail on me, hit the windscreen, I jumped like a scalded cat and spilt my tea everywhere. Anyway I survived just looking forward to Odyssey so I can wear my special hazmat suit in future.
 
Sure, which is demand, which is way lower than Methane Clathrates.

Subjective value requires subjective conditions, like property. Two identical properties in terms of build cost and land value can sell for two very different figures thanks to their locations. No such subjective assessment exists for the core minerals. Anyone who puts such high value on these things in the post-scarcity world of Elite is an idiot... notwithstanding the value of many, many other services including assassinations and wetwork is generally valued at or below that of a couple core minerals is absolutely non-sensical.

But frankly, even if I'm 100% wrong and you're 100% right in this assessment, rule 101 of game design: enjoyable game activities trump realism, and high-end mineral prices ruin the enjoyment of most other activities in the game.

I agree with you right up to the point where you claim, "... high-end mineral prices ruin the enjoyment of most other activities in the game."

HOW?!?! If you aren't into mining, then high mineral prices have zero effect on your gameplay. If you choose to mine nonetheless to build up the credits to build up your combat ship, explorer, trader, whatever, then it's a means to an end that can fund the ships you need with relatively little effort. Yes, it would be nice if you could do it entirely in your preferred gameplay style, and that is what should be addressed, but no one gains by further nerfing mining.

One the other hand, if you're a player who doesn't want to engage in combat or exploration (and there are quite a few, it would seem), and like being out in planetary rings quietly flying around, then a deliberate nerf of your gameplay to try to force you into other forms of play, like combat, is actually a push away from the game, so I would argue that nerfing mining yet again is harmful to the game's enjoyment.

We don't need to further nerf anything, we need to buff other activities - no one would ever argue that combat pays PITIFULLY little, for instance.
 
Don't forget, there's nothing stopping someone from loading up a bunch of return tourist missions to Colonia (at ~30m a pop, so you could easily load up around 200-300m credits worth), pop your ship onto an FC doing the loop, visit the beacons and hop on a return flight... ostensibly that's 200-300m for an hours gameplay and I strongly suspect FD don't have plans to balance that.
Wait a sec, once you loaded those tourists onto your ship, aren't you allowed to leave that ship or exchange ship until you have finished the return tourist missions?

If so, how are you going to refuel your FC with Tritium during the trip to Colonia when your current ship is packed with tourists?
 
Pfftt Surely mining is high risk enough already, just last week I had a limpet fail on me, hit the windscreen, I jumped like a scalded cat and spilt my tea everywhere. Anyway I survived just looking forward to Odyssey so I can wear my special hazmat suit in future.
Let me guess, you're someone who gets admitted into intensive care unit for stepping on a piece of LEGO block? :p
 
So someone is leaving the game for 30 hours to make money. I expect a lot of people will be doing that :D
I expect a lot of people would just quit for playing a proper game instead. That's what you usually go for when starting a game. Playing it. Not clicking to not play it. FD just doesn't understand "playing" very much. They pull off making software, but what a game is seems to be a mystery to them.
 
Let me guess, you're someone who gets admitted into intensive care unit for stepping on a piece of LEGO block? :p

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Wait a sec, once you loaded those tourists onto your ship, aren't you allowed to leave that ship or exchange ship until you have finished the return tourist missions?

If so, how are you going to refuel your FC with Tritium during the trip to Colonia when your current ship is packed with tourists?
This bit:
pop your ship onto an FC doing the loop,

For emphasis, AN FC, not YOUR FC. You could do it with an alt, or just hop aboard a mates FC or even someone who's publicly advertised as going up there.
 
I agree with you right up to the point where you claim, "... high-end mineral prices ruin the enjoyment of most other activities in the game."

HOW?!?! If you aren't into mining, then high mineral prices have zero effect on your gameplay. If you choose to mine nonetheless to build up the credits to build up your combat ship, explorer, trader, whatever, then it's a means to an end that can fund the ships you need with relatively little effort. Yes, it would be nice if you could do it entirely in your preferred gameplay style, and that is what should be addressed, but no one gains by further nerfing mining.

...

We don't need to further nerf anything, we need to buff other activities - no one would ever argue that combat pays PITIFULLY little, for instance.
I've had this debate too many times now. Short version, mining prices break suspension of disbelief, and require too much cognitive dissonance to accept.

I was looking at the mining board tonight and saw a mission; "45t of Osmium, 5m credit reward!". Pfft. What a joke, when I can mine 45t of Painite more easily and get paid 40 million. That's what it does, for Every. Single. Activity. Many, many activities require substantially more effort than mining, and the only outcome of those activities is credits.

Knowing how ridiculously high mining pays out, it's impossible to not interpret the pathetic payouts everything else receives by comparison as nothing more than a kick in the proverbial from the person requesting the work.

If you really think that I shouldn't be concerned about the excessive payouts of mining, then these folks:
One the other hand, if you're a player who doesn't want to engage in combat or exploration (and there are quite a few, it would seem), and like being out in planetary rings quietly flying around, then a deliberate nerf of your gameplay to try to force you into other forms of play, like combat, is actually a push away from the game, so I would argue that nerfing mining yet again is harmful to the game's enjoyment.
... should have absolutely no problem with a nerf. They're doing it for the love of it, right, just like I should be?

Unless, y'know, payouts matter. Which they do, and knowing how much mining pays out means every time I do another activity, the mediocre payout is just a limp and uninspiring ending to the days activity. That's how it ruins my enjoyment of the game.

Mining pays too much, and other activities cannot be appropriately balanced without completely throwing the progression of the game out of whack. Nerfing it is inevitable.

Take CGs for example; 7 days of concentrated effort for a weak 80m payout at the end. To even remotely be competitive with mining, you're looking at something like a 1b payout per person for say, the top 50%? Might as well just remove credits at that point.

EDIT: It's not just mining that's on the nerf table, rememeber. Let's also talk about massacre stacking. That can net you 150m/h if you stack right, averaging 5m per basic ship kill. So where's that leave Threat 5-6 Pirate Activity? I rate those ships at 4-5 times the effort, so 25m per kill sounds like a good place to start, to base it around what massacres currently offer.

I rekon with some effort, I could spin about 1b an hour under those circumstances. That'd be a broken mess. So you can't realistically balance Threat 5-6 Pirate Activity sites until you nerf massacre stacking. The same needs to get done to mining and all the other outliers.
 
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Mining pays too much, and other activities cannot be appropriately balanced without completely throwing the progression of the game out of whack. Nerfing it is inevitable.
Yes - though of course income is only one side of the problem. The other two sides - costs and capabilities - would also need some significant rewriting or otherwise all professions are going to continue having the "wrong" income for most of the game, it'll just be that "first mappings of Class V giants" becomes the earning method of choice.

Might as well just remove credits at that point.
There is I think a lot to be said for CQC's "everything is free but you have to meet certain requirements to make it available" approach to outfitting.

- abolish credits
- move trade rank to unlock based on tonnage
- adjust BGS effects to be based on tonnage for trade and target rank for bounties
- all ships and modules are made available at appropriate Pilots Fed or Military rank points
(existing players can keep their existing ones but not obtain more)

Problem solved, all earnings are balanced, be careful what you wish for, etc. ;)
 
If you aren't into mining, then high mineral prices have zero effect on your gameplay.

Unless you need to compete in some manner that's dependent on one's ability to afford outlays of credits. This is admittedly rare in the current game because most activities now provide more credits than are necessary for just about anything. However, there are still situations where someone may need a ship, the ability to sell large quantities of cargo at a steep loss, the ability to pay off large fines/bounties, or to afford large quantities of merits.

Fleet carriers are also priced as they are, due in some part to the raw credit supply, which is significantly related to mining profit.


Sounds like a great way to get parasites or a fungal infection.

Problem solved, all earnings are balanced, be careful what you wish for, etc. ;)

Can scarcely get any worse!
 
Yes - though of course income is only one side of the problem. The other two sides - costs and capabilities - would also need some significant rewriting or otherwise all professions are going to continue having the "wrong" income for most of the game, it'll just be that "first mappings of Class V giants" becomes the earning method of choice.
Absolutely. Being realistic, it's not just a credit balance that's required, it's a whole economic restructure. But a credit rebalance is what we're getting, so we need to work within that. Two basic outcomes for this to be a success need to be:
1. Establish an appropriate remuneration (whether credits or otherwise) for all activities based on effort, risk and capability investment; and
2. Maintain a sense of logic to rewards and expenses post-balancing; hauling 50t of fruit and veg shouldn't pay out more than the cost of the hauler required for that task.

Point 1 can be done easily enough without any framing. Point 2 is the hard one, and shapes what maximum and minimum rewards for activities look like... and unfortunately for mining and it's outlier cousins, that result looks bleak. Unless FD are considering an order of magnitude increase to all ship/outfitting costs.
 
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