FDev, please consider doing something about the Elite exploration rank

[Kaocraft]

Combat should only go up if equal or better ranks are killed (I thought it was already this though).

It was this way, and still is to an extent. They widened the margin by which a ship could under-rank you and still count substantially towards your progression, and I think they made it so *all* ships still count for at least a little bit no matter what. So they made it easier, but the diminishing returns on killing Harmless sidewinders is still there.

(I would however prefer it if they kept it the old way, where ships more than I think two ranks below you didn't count for anything.)

 

[TheSynopticVision]

Primary issue is that exploration advancement is calculated based on raw credit payouts only. It's fine to adjust the amount of credits you get for performing different kinds of exploration related activities (and quasi-exploration related like passenger missions). But the progression of your exploration rank should be calculated in a way that is completely independent of that, and should take stock of all the different actions you perform and use them in a sensibly weighted way to advance you through the ranks.

So, yeah: give greater weight to discoveries that are further from the bubble, give greater weight to first discoveries, give greater weight to complete system scans, give greater weight to SRV distance traveled and further increase that weight with distance from the bubble. It should be possible to make billions in scan data, but not make Elite in exploration, if all you're doing is following something like the Road to Riches.

To draw the parallels with the other Elite "paths": combat rank is based on ships you actually shoot down, not on credits earned via bounties, or credits earned by doing Massacre missions, or any secondary earnings-related metric like that. Your combat rank is determined by the actual number and relative rank of the ships you personally shoot down. And it has a weighting to it where the higher your rank, the higher the rank of ship you need to shoot down in order to move the needle. So while it is technically *possible,* as one poster pointed out, to reach Elite rank by plinking at Harmless sidewinders all day long; there are diminishing returns.

Exploration ranking needs a second look and should be adjusted to function in a logically-consistent way which reflects your actions rather than your income, similar to the way combat works.

Trade obviously *should* be all about profits and it makes perfect sense to tie it into that. Which is all the more reason why we don't want Exploration ranking to be the same as Trade, but merely for a different marketplace.

Yup, I agree with all of the above.

 

[Red Anders]

i don't understand. you can make trading elite without ever using the commodity market (just running missions), and the fastest way to combat elite is shooting elite sideys, adder and eagles at comp nav beacons.

the same applies to exploration the one way of the other. in former times that was "neutron field farming", than it was "passenger missions", now its farming ELW from one of the many lists and tools around.

you can always game the system.

i have no problem with that (and while i dipped very deep into state depending trading for my elite trading rank, and have never really farmed neutron stars for my elite exploration rank even before passenger missions have been in the game, i sat 2 times a day 1 hour shooting sideys and eagles at a comp nav beacon in my FDL - without any challenge or being "a real combat pilot" by now).

generally all three elite ranks have the problem imho, that you neither gain skill or experience from the last 1 or 2 ranks - those a simply a sign of endurance. if people get this sign by a shortcut, all power to them.

I think the most recent changes to exploration payouts are badly implemented to be honest.

I don't have a problem with the fact that payouts were increased, God knows they needed to be but the weighting between scanning already discovered astronomical objects which simply haven't been visited by the individual player, as opposed to newly discovered objects that haven't been visited by anyone, is badly skewed. People are bagging significant payouts (i.e. over a million credits) for scanning systems like Sothis, probably one of the most visited systems in the game, despite the fact that there hasn't been a genuinely new discovery of any kind in there (this is exploration don't forget) for over two years.

If the intention was to reward exploration gameplay, I think a far better way of doing it would have been to keep the overall amount a player will receive for a wholly new discovery (scanning payout plus first discovery bonus) as it is now after the buff, but to have only modestly increased the actual scan payout, with the bulk of the 'new' payout coming from an increase to the first discovery bonus. That way you're rewarding genuine discovery but not enabling the 'fly round these ten systems and cash in 25m' nonsense that we have now.

I mean I've never considered the payouts I would get from scanning already discovered systems I just hadn't visited before in the bubble as anything other than bonus cash to begin with and I'm sure that most players who were asking for a buff to payouts were actual explorers, not people expecting the game to throw money at them for taking an extra couple of minutes per jump to scan the two planets nearest to the star as they fly from Sol to Achenar.

If anybody thinks that sounds harsh, consider this. I've never been to Canterbury. If I decide to visit it this summer, what would you say if I came on here posting about the lost city I'd discovered?

That's not to say that there's any more logic in the other ranking paths mind you.

 

[LP Garnell]

Primary issue is they increased exploration payout massively but haven't adjusted exploration rank tiers accordingly. Not only have people that did exploration early get shorted, now it's easier to get.

They actually did. The cartographic credits are now 2:1 (2 credits gets you one "exploration point" wrt existing rank table) and the sightseeing VIP missions credits get you 5:1.

 

[wrmiller]

I don't understand the concern about these 'Elite' badges and how folks get them? It's not like they are actually worth anything in-game.

Other than access to the station at Founders World. Forgot about that one. Do the other badges have some in-game benefit?

 

[Darkfyre99]

In the end, Pilot Federation ranks don't matter all that much. The worst Explorer, Merchant, or Mercenary will reach Elite status if they play long enough.

The sharing of knowledge that is enabled by today's internet means that nothing is a mystery for long, unless you actively try to avoid it. I'm surprised that it took this long for this "Road to Riches" to appear. It didn't take nearly as long for the first "best profit" calculators to appear to allow trading on autopilot. I'll take it as sign that the exploration community knows that it's the spirit of discovery that's important, and the skills you develop as you explore.

At the end of the day, I know I can find planets and stars via parallax should the Advanced Discovery Scanner ever get nerfed. I know I can accurately pinpoint a star's habitability zone, and search for terraformable planets there. I don't have to rely on the work of others to get ahead in this game.

I also know I have nothing to fear should sites like EDDB.io ever go down, because I know how to use the ingame trading tools to similar results, only faster. I know how to build a trade network, how to manipulate the BGS for fun and profit, and where to look for the best deals.

And finally, I know I will get shredded by the next expert NPC I try to fight because I suck at combat. But I am an expert at the Sir Robin maneuver.

 

[Brett3964]

I forgot when did they nerf quince? I havnt been there in forever haha

 

[damajoo]

To those wanting an "adjustment", and that is just for your information:

"Back in the days" think at least 1.5 years ago, Elite Explorer required around 100-120Million Credits in Exploration Data.

Now, guess what: today it is already at 320 give or take. just saying.

And it is not only "just scan this, scan that - boom - here is your Elite badge".

Yes it is not complicated. But try it first and let's see at what point you give up .. (no offense). But latest when you are Pioneer awarded and realize that you have to do 160 Mil on top of THAT already, you will understand, that even today, Elite Exploration is not a gift, and not "eaaasssyy". Even with RtR.

o7

 

[Red Anders]

I don't understand the concern about these 'Elite' badges and how folks get them? It's not like they are actually worth anything in-game.

Other than access to the station at Founders World. Forgot about that one. Do the other badges have some in-game benefit?

I'm not specifically concerned about 'Elite badges' and whether someone has one or not. As you say, the only specific benefit to having one is access to Founder's World (plus another place you can only access if you have the CQC elite rank but it doesn't sell Cutters for 15 credits or anything) and beta backers got Founder's access as part of their fee without neeeding to rank in anything.

No, my concern is solely rooted in gameplay that makes sense within the context of the overall game world and the cost of ships and gear within it, plus ensuring that progress remains quick enough that people don't lose interest but not so fast that people are flying well kitted out mid-tier ships inside a few hours because that's not the kind of progress curve that most games consider desirable.

Payouts in general (missions, bounties, combat bonds etc.) had already been increased quite significantly from initial launch when I started playing in October 2015 and back then I thought the time taken to make credits to upgrade was about right. I spent my early days in the game doing the old 'kill X pirates' missions at res sites around the starter systems and was able to progress from my Sidey to a decently equipped Cobra Mk3 within maybe 8 hours of starting, including the time taken to get a grip of the game in general.

Right now, I could take off in my starting Sidey, jump through ten systems to a shipyard scanning on the way and buy that Cobra when I landed. Personally, I don't think that's a good thing because it doesn't allow players to get even the slightest feel for the game.

It's no coincidence that we're seeing an increase in people asking things like 'why can't I jump to X system, it won't let me plot a course that far' because players aren't being incentivised to learn about the basic ship systems and gear before they start spending money. When I started, you had to learn about that stuff first because you didn't have the money to throw around - it was an intentional way to encourage players to investigate and comprehend the basics of the game.

I'm not one of these 'good old days' types who think it would be better if it took you five months to afford a Viper Mk3 with C rated gear, that's just as detrimental to maintaining interest and developing understanding as the alternative but generally games don't throw money at players right at the start for very good reasons.

 

[bnrgator]

The best fix would be to make the biggest payouts be undiscovered ELWs. Discovered worlds should have the same payouts as in years past.

I'm still not elite yet and have been exploring since 2014. Haven't touched passenger missions or the road to riches.

 

[Schmack]

Everyone who's Elite is jumping to points on a map, points someone else created and said "here they are". It's as easy as click, route, jump, scan, repeat.

This thread seems like a class separation concern. No one here is really Elite in exploration. I mean, the early comers (maybe even developers) were first discoverers of all the easy, close systems. The early comers were the ones who got all the really easy to kill NPCs in CZs or nav beacons to rank to Elite combat. They had the rares to fast track to Elite in trading (that or palladium at ridiculous price differences just a system apart).

It doesn't matter if you never discover a system, since Elite is based on money and it was based on money when the OP got it as well.

Suddenly being triple elite isn't as special because there are more people doing it, not because it became so much easier.

 

[deckroid]

The "creation" of the Road to Riches and the release of the PS4 version of the game have almost been simultaneous, and as a result you can now find people with a few hours of gameplay and who never even left the bubble (or very nearly) who are Elite in exploration.

Now, make no mistake, I am not saying that the RtR is an exploit. It's obviously not, the planets are there, and to scan them is perfectly legitimate, so no objection there.

What I am saying is that there's obviously something very broken in the criterion used to assign the Elite exploration rank. It just cannot be simply a matter of how much you cashed in. There should be other criteria to meet (I would suggest, for example, a minimum distance away from the bubble, a minimum distance travelled on an SRV, as well as a minimum number of astronomical objects scanned...but there could be more perhaps).

I understand that the trade rank is based on money, and I understand that the Combat rank grows in proportion of the rank of the ships you destroy (both make sense). But the exploration one? As it stands it's totally broken. Doing the RtR gives you Elite exploration, but going to Beagle Point and back (without sufficient scanning on the way) does not? That makes no sense -- both gameplay-wise and lore-wise.

So please, when you go back to the re-hauling of core mechanics (or before? that would be awesome!), please do something about this.

Yet another one is gather some tourists. 5 million to go look at something 1100lyrs away is just TOO much advancement for Exploration.

 

[Vasea Azure]

Why does ppl get upset about how someone gets his exploration rank?! Like, jeez... if he chooses the "easy" way, more power to you by getting it the difficult one!

What I am saying is that there's obviously something very broken in the criterion used to assign the Elite exploration rank. It just cannot be simply a matter of how much you cashed in. There should be other criteria to meet (I would suggest, for example, a minimum distance away from the bubble, a minimum distance travelled on an SRV, as well as a minimum number of astronomical objects scanned...but there could be more perhaps).

On the other hand, yes I agree, those are good suggestions to make exploration rank more legit and I`m all for it.

 

[Red Anders]

To those wanting an "adjustment", and that is just for your information:

"Back in the days" think at least 1.5 years ago, Elite Explorer required around 100-120Million Credits in Exploration Data.

Now, guess what: today it is already at 320 give or take. just saying.

And it is not only "just scan this, scan that - boom - here is your Elite badge".

Yes it is not complicated. But try it first and let's see at what point you give up .. (no offense). But latest when you are Pioneer awarded and realize that you have to do 160 Mil on top of THAT already, you will understand, that even today, Elite Exploration is not a gift, and not "eaaasssyy". Even with RtR.

o7

It's now 320m credits for Elite exploration? I certainly haven't seen that, I thought it had increased a little (thought I saw around 200m mentioned somewhere) but nothing like that much, when did that change then?

I am Elite in exploration by the way, I got mine on 8th January this year (which was immediately before passenger missions started to count towards it) and it took around 158m. Even if it is 320m credts now though, for an example of the relative ease of doing it consider this.

At the point I hit Elite I had 158m credits from exploration data after visiting 12,371 systems and flying 432,456 LY.

Today, I have 246m credits from exploration data (plus about another 25m on-board my ship right now that I haven't cashed in because I'm about 15k LY away from a station) after visiting 14,281 systems and flying 561,699 LY. Virtually none of the increase since I hit Elite is from passenger missions (maybe 10m tops) the rest is all scans.

Average payout per system works out at 12,772 credits for the period to January 2017 and 46,073 credits for the period from January 2017 to now even without including what I haven't cashed in. So even without factoring in the free gifts from passenger missions, I'm averaging roughly four times as much per system, whereas if that 320m credits figure is correct the requirement has less than doubled since I got Elite. That seems easier to me for sure.

 

[Red Anders]

Suddenly being triple elite isn't as special because there are more people doing it, not because it became so much easier.

I can't stress enough that I'm not bothered about whether more people are getting Elite ranks or not - for me the Elite exploration rank was a nice little benchmarking of how much exploration I'd done but I don't want a badge or anything, it's just an achivement in a computer game and I still did exactly the same things to get it regardless of what anybody else does or doesn't have to do.

It has become objectively easier though, assuming the only measure of 'ease' we have to begin with is actually 'time spent'.

 

[Avetorian]

Until Exploration has more depth I don't see the point in changing the rank progression, I don't see why it should matter to anyone anyways, far too often people gripe about how easy it is for someone to make money or do this or that, when it has nothing to do with them.

 

[Schmack]

It was this way, and still is to an extent. They widened the margin by which a ship could under-rank you and still count substantially towards your progression, and I think they made it so *all* ships still count for at least a little bit no matter what. So they made it easier, but the diminishing returns on killing Harmless sidewinders is still there.

(I would however prefer it if they kept it the old way, where ships more than I think two ranks below you didn't count for anything.)

With combat I always killed NPCs for the fun of it, and the money second. The rank was just a side effect I wasn't really concerned with. With trading, it's the money and the rep/influence that opens up even bigger opportunities. I never did any of it for the ranking. Different strokes for different folks.

 

[[VR] Frank_G]

It is not only based on cash. Before the upgrade on exploration payout, some hit Elite with 100.000.000 cashed in, other took 150.000.000 to reach it... a few criteria were mentioned back then by Frontier. I guess, distance from Sol, discovered or not and other factors play into the rank as well... and since Horizons, km you drove in the SRV multiplied by a factor based on distance from home also applies. And honestly, with all those meta exploits people use to gain a few extra points, it is the best way, to keep the book shut on how you reach ranks the fastest way.

 

[DukeIronHand]

The "creation" of the Road to Riches and the release of the PS4 version of the game have almost been simultaneous, and as a result you can now find people with a few hours of gameplay and who never even left the bubble (or very nearly) who are Elite in exploration.

Now, make no mistake, I am not saying that the RtR is an exploit. It's obviously not, the planets are there, and to scan them is perfectly legitimate, so no objection there.

What I am saying is that there's obviously something very broken in the criterion used to assign the Elite exploration rank. It just cannot be simply a matter of how much you cashed in. There should be other criteria to meet (I would suggest, for example, a minimum distance away from the bubble, a minimum distance travelled on an SRV, as well as a minimum number of astronomical objects scanned...but there could be more perhaps).

I understand that the trade rank is based on money, and I understand that the Combat rank grows in proportion of the rank of the ships you destroy (both make sense). But the exploration one? As it stands it's totally broken. Doing the RtR gives you Elite exploration, but going to Beagle Point and back (without sufficient scanning on the way) does not? That makes no sense -- both gameplay-wise and lore-wise.

So please, when you go back to the re-hauling of core mechanics (or before? that would be awesome!), please do something about this.

I fail to see how if some Cmdr is Elite in anything it effects your game? And I don't mean to sound snarky.
As for Exploration who cares if the undiscovered earth-like is 250 LY away or 2500 or 25000?
In trade and combat we can, at least, attribute some minor skill component (however small) but Exploration is just an endurance test. Jump, honk, jump, honk.
Who cares what someone's rank is...or how much money they have...or which ships?
ED ranks, ships, money, is a true test of how much free time you have.

 

[Red Anders]

I fail to see how if some Cmdr is Elite in anything it effects your game? And I don't mean to sound snarky.

He didn't say it affects his game did he? He said that it's a poor mechanic. It's not an unreasonable thing to point out that something is a bad idea even if it doesn't directly affect the person concerned.

I think FGM is a bad idea, as a 46 year old man I can't say that I'm ever likely to be affected by it though.