Horizons FDev, please talk to the active PVP community.

[Kezha]

Every Saturday at 10pm GMT we have PvP training open to all. You should come out to open and learn to pvp. We're not grievers attacking traders and camping CG's. We're mainly Powerplay commanders and we engage against other PP commanders. Our class last Saturday was about an hour to an hour and a half and had about 20+ people show up. After the official "class" stopped, about 8-12 of us stuck around and practiced wing PvP for about 6-7 hours. Some great fun. You'd be surprised how long a stealth viper/DBS/DBE can last vs a Python or Conda.. We even had 4 Stealth Vipers go up against a fully PvP fit Corvette. Spoiler alert - the Corvette lost.

ts.tgpnet.org is our teamspeak.

This is the opposite of what i meant xP

i was talking about the people who ruin the fun for all, the mostly lonely wolfs without a pack who will log off if the tides turn, they do so in dayz too hehe

and yes, i love my dbs, looks awesome feels awesome!

 

[Cowboy Bats]

Well, if want to play the relative game, we can argue anything can produce thrill for certain people.

Either people can be proud in any skill or people can't be proud with any skill at all, pick one .-.

It's not an either/or. Just a difference. In all seriousness, judging by a year of discussion, I think I understand well that there are a great many players who genuinely do get excited during combat, and genuinely do have pride in their skills. I do not however, necessarily agree that the converse is true. I get a much stronger vibe from many posters that they believe these sensations are universal, when they are not.

Energy bombs are my definitive answer as to how pvp hurts pve. Energy bombs were great in the original game, but we can't have them now because well, multiplayer. Single player games don't require balance to be fun, but multiplayer game do. That's the pain right there.

 

[Arindor]

ED isn't solely about PvP, it only has some PvP elements depending on the career path you choose. It's unfortunate that some players see the whole galaxy as a PvP arena, and/or think, "Cool, pew pew pew!".

But I'm happy RPG'ing in my solo/private galaxy, just how I played it back in '84/'85.

 

[GluttonyFang]

It's not an either/or. Just a difference. In all seriousness, judging by a year of discussion, I think I understand well that there are a great many players who genuinely do get excited during combat, and genuinely do have pride in their skills. I do not however, necessarily agree that the converse is true. I get a much stronger vibe from many posters that they believe these sensations are universal, when they are not.

Energy bombs are my definitive answer as to how pvp hurts pve. Energy bombs were great in the original game, but we can't have them now because well, multiplayer. Single player games don't require balance to be fun, but multiplayer game do. That's the pain right there.

Fair enough for the first point.

Second point, there are also plenty of restrictive effect PvE imposes on PvP in terms of competition gameplay that demand PvE content/Missiles nerfing, etc.

 

[Crumly]

Okay you have your own personal definition of a MMO cool. Other people have their own personal definition of a MMO. Elite fits that bill.

what is your definition? Hahah, what a joke. I played ~50-60 hours in open and never saw another commander - not one time. So i started playing in solo - i can afk wherever I want with no risk. I'm sure there was never any risk anyway, but there is some small risk and as far I ever saw, zero benefit.

When I talk about Elite to people I tell them it's a single player game and everyone is part of the same universe.

 

[Hammer Fall]

I don't mind the current meta, probably because I fly ships which did alright with the changes. I long gave up on trying to play games based on how I think they should play, but instead, focus on using the current mechanics and being successful.

In essence, I am saying that no matter what changes the Devs implement, I’ll find a way to make it work. If tomorrow, the FAS gets nerfed to the ground, I won’t moan, I’ll just pick the next best ship and go from there, and if nothing works, I’ll switch games ;-)

I am not saying that this ‘just roll with it’ attitude is something everyone should adopt, in fact, I think it’s great that people challenge the direction and offer their thoughts/ideas.

I know that balancing for PvE and PvP at the same time is hard (the games you mentioned, CS and LoL, are PvP only games), and I think ED will always be a PvE type of game (which is a pity, but I think that’s how it will be for the next year or two).

I do wish that Fdev would do a few things:

1 – FIX INSTANCING – For the love of god, please!

2 – Increase jump ranges and reduce fuel usage for all ships (like by a factor of 3 or more) – I waste too much time traveling around, I want to play the game not jump jump, refuel, jump jump, refuel, zzzzzzzzzz.

3 – Make PvP rewarding and meaningful. Right now, there is no point in PvP at all apart from the thrill. Can you push any goals through PvP? Nope, can you stop an opposing side from achieving their goals through PvP? Nope. I guess this is part of the solo vs open debate………so a much bigger topic. Perhaps FDev could implement objectives that can only be won or lost through PvP. It would give the winning side a reward and a reason for pilots to fight each other.

 

[Bran Tse Mallory]

What I would like to see (and what I am suggesting), is for some of the Frontier development team members to sit down and get involved in a discussion about game-balance from a PvP perspective. Games like Counter-Strike and League of Legends are very successful, long lasting, and competitive. Part of the reason they stay competitive is because the developers take the advice of their most committed and experienced players. If Valve makes a change to Counter-Strike which is extremely imbalanced or not fun, it's very common that they get feedback from the Pro scene and make changes based on the advice of the Pro's. (Same in League of Legends.)

I see you have listed the popular PVP games and made claims about how they interact with their community. Great, except Elite is NOT just a PvP game - far from it. It is a game that features both PvP and PvE so any balancing that you would like needs to include both groups of players and not just those you feel are important.

Also on the developers taking advise from 'Pro' groups? In all my time in the gaming industry I have never heard of any company listening to one group of players more than the whole community. Why would valve take such a risk with their two biggest titles? Simple they do not. They will look at the data they mine from the servers - it's easy to see when something needs to be adjusted or is being used in a way that wasn't considered leading to it becoming OP.

All I can see it leading to is an obvious imbalance between the two groups - like we had with the SCB farce. I suggest that you learn to play with the same rules as the rest of us. Sorry if it sounds a bit harsh but then so does you're suggestion to me at least.

 

[Unfluffydave]

"Hardcore" pvpers in ED. Don't make me laugh, hardcore pvpers wouldn't touch this game or any other that mixes PVE and PVP with a barge pole. Changes to "balance" pvp often screw over those that play pve and vice versa. Anyone who is remotely serious about actual PVP (rather than "I want to gank someone") go for games designed around pvp.

 

[Cowboy Bats]

Fair enough for the first point.

Second point, there are also plenty of restrictive effect PvE imposes on PvP in terms of competition gameplay that demand PvE content/Missiles nerfing, etc.

You have that totally backwards. Missiles were great in pve, but the Meagles in open brought on the nerf. In solo no one cared if anyone was taking out Pirate MacStabby off the mission board with a an Eagle loaded out with missiles, but in open they were a problem with players screaming that big expensive ships were falling to cheap missile boats.

 

[Tuub t Tute]

I've seen the comment in here twice about "The adrenaline rush from potentially losing a big ship is a big draw for pvp"... I call hooey. An SDC member has posted a video on how to print money out at Robigo and he was sitting on 1.2 Billion when he started... The small, well organised pvp groups generally have a core of sane individuals who are accomplished min/maxers and make use of opportunities to generate credits before they get known / nerfed.

I am not going to request Gluttony's financial records, although they would probably be easier to get than CiGs... I doubt he or a rep from any of the other "recognised" pvp+ groups could come on here with a straight face and say "Yes, we all dread losing ships because the buy-back costs are a limiting point for us"...

 

[DarthBlingBling]

never going to happen

Hey it's that man from the Reddit video!

Boo that man!

No idea how you can come into a pvp thread with a straight face

 

[Cosmos]

When it comes to the game FD have made it explicity clear over time that its not that 'type' of game. There was a period when all DB seemed to talk about was circumventing percieved 'griefing'. I get that these guys obviously played EvE and got upset etc.. but adversarial play with other players and groups is far more interesting and dynamic than anything the devs have so far produced. There is lots of space, hehe quite literally so, for us to be able to have emergent gameplay.

I think they took the easy route with the solo/pg thing and even if they wanted to take it away only leaving Open it would result in a huge backlash. It comes down to overall game design, particuarly with FD an ideological one, and I think so much has been lost in wrapping everyone in cotton wool. I don't think we need to ask particular well known groups for their feedback either. There have been many including myself over the years who really have been making a solid case for more emergent gameplay..

You wouldn't believe what some battled against such as transponders and so on.. FD aren't intereted in a competitive game. Its all about having people enjoy the experience apparently. Whatever that means.

 

[Martind Forlon]

what is your definition? Hahah, what a joke. I played ~50-60 hours in open and never saw another commander - not one time. So i started playing in solo - i can afk wherever I want with no risk. I'm sure there was never any risk anyway, but there is some small risk and as far I ever saw, zero benefit.

When I talk about Elite to people I tell them it's a single player game and everyone is part of the same universe.

Hmm weird, I get used to have met more commanders each day when I can play. So there must be somewhere some difference in something, when we play the same game

 

[okmerflow]

I agree, there is nothing 'dangerous' about this game, and getting Elite rank is easy, move [product] from A to B for x amount of times = Elite. Jump - scan - scoop - jump x 161 million credits work = Elite.

This game is way too passive, it's catered for the casual crowd. PvP is high-end game play, it's a part of powerplay, but because so many people are just outright bad at it, they don't want it to be a part of their special game.

CQC doesn't take skill, there is no variety in the gameplay, everyone plays in Condors with Pulse Lasers, there is no tact required for builds.

We've build a community where even mentioning PvP results in you being accused of griefing, and it's an absolute joke. PvP is high-end content, it requires the most skill, and I agree with the OP.


If Elite: Dangerous isn't a PvP game, it should be called Elite: Endeavors. Dangerous implies that there is actually something dangerous in the game. I really hope that thargoids are released, and they are extremely difficult to kill and solo'ing them is borderline impossible, none of this 'NPC spinning in one location' rubbish.

^^^Exactly this

 

[Troubletcat]

I don't see how it's insane. Game developers should consult their committed and experienced players for balance ideas/options.

Who do you think has tested more ship builds in combat, both PvE and PVP? Your average trader, explorer, bounty hunter... or your PVPer who, if his build is flawed, it will cost him a rebuy?

PvE does not test your skills in combat or ship building to the extreme that PvP does, hence why FDev should consult the more experienced PVP players for questions like "Are SCB's balanced? Are hull reinf balanced? What modules need help?", etc.

It's insane because Counter-Strike and MOBAs are game where the only meaningful way to play is PvP. That is in fact the whole point of those games - they are competitive games you play against other players.

ED is different. In ED for most player playing the game in a standard fashion (for example, say that you are a player who picks up the game and just runs with it, you aren't coming on the forums and joining PvP groups) 99% of the time you're playing you're playing PvE. PvP encounters are extremely rare for the the general playerbase.

Combat in PvE and PvP is DIFFERENT. If FDev were making a game like CS or a MOBA where the game is all about competing with other players, then it would make sense to specifically consult high-level competitive players for balance an game-design input. I play CS:GO more than I play ED. This is something I strongly agree with.

But ED is not CS. It is not trying to be CS. It is not trying to be ANYTHING EVEN REMOTELY LIKE CS. ED is, for the majority of players, the vast majority of the time, a PVE game.

So giving special weight to high-skilled PvP players over anyone else is, like I said, insane. That's NOT the kind of game ED is. What works well, what is fun and balanced in PvE, is wildly different from PvP. The game is 90%+ PvE, so it needs to be balanced and fun for PvE first and foremost. PvP should be considered, but it's secondary. Because ED is not a competitive game.

If you want that kind of game, go play something else. This is not the game for you.

 

[Lowievisser]

I agree, there is nothing 'dangerous' about this game, and getting Elite rank is easy, move [product] from A to B for x amount of times = Elite. Jump - scan - scoop - jump x 161 million credits work = Elite.

This game is way too passive, it's catered for the casual crowd. PvP is high-end game play, it's a part of powerplay, but because so many people are just outright bad at it, they don't want it to be a part of their special game.

CQC doesn't take skill, there is no variety in the gameplay, everyone plays in Condors with Pulse Lasers, there is no tact required for builds.

We've build a community where even mentioning PvP results in you being accused of griefing, and it's an absolute joke. PvP is high-end content, it requires the most skill, and I agree with the OP.


If Elite: Dangerous isn't a PvP game, it should be called Elite: Endeavors. Dangerous implies that there is actually something dangerous in the game. I really hope that thargoids are released, and they are extremely difficult to kill and solo'ing them is borderline impossible, none of this 'NPC spinning in one location' rubbish.

What he said!

 

[GluttonyFang]

You have that totally backwards. Missiles were great in pve, but the Meagles in open brought on the nerf. In solo no one cared if anyone was taking out Pirate MacStabby off the mission board with a an Eagle loaded out with missiles, but in open they were a problem with players screaming that big expensive ships were falling to cheap missile boats.

Oh, yep, I don't know why I used that example, I guess it was late for me so my mind wasn't clear.

I remember people got blown up with dumbfire on a eagle, hah... the things people do...

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

If memory serves - the missile nerf was purely and simply down to players being killed inside space stations as they were docking, by miscreants spamming missiles at them.

Similar was the cannister limit. Before this was implemented, jokers were dumping cargo cannisters of biowaste in and around stations/station entrances.

 

[HvyHauler]

I've seen the comment in here twice about "The adrenaline rush from potentially losing a big ship is a big draw for pvp"... I call hooey. An SDC member has posted a video on how to print money out at Robigo and he was sitting on 1.2 Billion when he started... The small, well organised pvp groups generally have a core of sane individuals who are accomplished min/maxers and make use of opportunities to generate credits before they get known / nerfed.

I am not going to request Gluttony's financial records, although they would probably be easier to get than CiGs... I doubt he or a rep from any of the other "recognised" pvp+ groups could come on here with a straight face and say "Yes, we all dread losing ships because the buy-back costs are a limiting point for us"...

True! So give them a real rush. Hardcore mode. Your ship blows up and you wake up with a new face, flying a sidewinder with a 1,000 creds.

 

[Fendalton]

never going to happen

It's a shame you can't combat log the forums eh?

- I've been recording PvP fights in my stealth scout build, the 4v4 fights, and they are very interesting to watch. They were a lot easier to record back in the day, but it seems every man and his dog has the black skins running stealth builds.