Horizons FDev, please talk to the active PVP community.

[A_Honcho]

How many of us is it going to take to create a bug report to get the one thing fixed that would free up loads of tension.
INSTANCING!
Why is it when you are on your own you can find people in wings, but when you are in a wing, you only find single commanders? Its like the game is promoting ganking.

Everytime I find guys who want to wing PvP it's almost impossible to happen due to the instance, you can barely get 8 people into one now weras back in early 1.3 i've seen videos with 20-30 easy and i remember being there aswell.

C'mon Fdev, stop giving us empty content with more problems and start doing some house keeping and fix exising issues, you're doing a Gaijin and killing your own game.

 

[Roybe]

I think everyone needs to give up on the idea of meaningful pvp in ED.
/fold

Another player that has 'seen the light'! I am on the fence on the High wake maneuver, agree that the log off timer probably should be increased, and also think it would be interesting to see the overall response to more varied police tactics (keeping in mind that crime is actually desired).

Ultimately, the game is based on PvE. This is seen as indirect PvP...groups fighting for their way through the movement of PvE trophies. So someone wanting more meaning, other than than shooting other players, is going to be left feeling flat.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

How many of us is it going to take to create a bug report to get the one thing fixed that would free up loads of tension.
INSTANCING!
Why is it when you are on your own you can find people in wings, but when you are in a wing, you only find single commanders? Its like the game is promoting ganking.

Everytime I find guys who want to wing PvP it's almost impossible to happen due to the instance, you can barely get 8 people into one now weras back in early 1.3 i've seen videos with 20-30 easy and i remember being there aswell.

C'mon Fdev, stop giving us empty content with more problems and start doing some house keeping and fix exising issues, you're doing a Gaijin and killing your own game.

To have more than two/three wings naturally in this game will rarely occur. The matchmaking tests for internet viability between machines, and the players machine capabilities themselves are the limiting factor.

You can force more into the instance by ferrying people in...but naturally having 4 wings fall in to fight each other is never going to happen.

 

[Distance]

Well I stopped playing in 1.3. I only intend to play in VR. Seeing the light isn't a good thing though, FD dropped the ball on what they promised tbh. I've paid for lifetime expansion from beta so I may as well make the best of a bad situation. You'll find me in Mobius once I get my rift

 

[Asp Explorer]

You surprise me Distance, I thought you were a pro-PvP Open player?

 

[Distance]

You surprise me Distance, I thought you were a pro-PvP Open player?

I always have been but it's obvious that FD aren't going to make the changes necessary to make it do able. In all the time since beta they've still not extended the log off timer which has always been laughably small. Look at the solo vs open thread for example, everyone is right tbh because FD promised everyone their chosen game play. There's more pve advocates on the forum, the reddit has gone full on pve as well and all the pvp players I knew have quit.

It seems like there's always been a majority of people advocating pve but that's never been the case it's just the pvpers were too busy playing the game, hearing that they had pretty much no voice on the forum and reddit and quit in silence. The few pvp groups left get stick on a daily basis for playing the game in open the way they want to play (the way they were led to believe they could play). Look at hutton orbital, drama central. Even gunning down noobs in the starter systems is technically fine but FD do nothing to dissuade it (like making more than 1 bloody starter system or having an effective npc police force). They should just leave pvp as it is and work on a much needed not crappy mission system and at least we can salvage something out of the game.

I have zero faith in FD at this point and I don't even believe that they'll have vr support for cv 1 by the time I get mine in April. The whole experience has soured me.

 

[Roybe]

I always have been but it's obvious that FD aren't going to make the changes necessary to make it do able. In all the time since beta they've still not extended the log off timer which has always been laughably small. Look at the solo vs open thread for example, everyone is right tbh because FD promised everyone their chosen game play. There's more pve advocates on the forum, the reddit has gone full on pve as well and all the pvp players I knew have quit.

It seems like there's always been a majority of people advocating pve but that's never been the case it's just the pvpers were too busy playing the game, hearing that they had pretty much no voice on the forum and reddit and quit in silence. The few pvp groups left get stick on a daily basis for playing the game in open the way they want to play (the way they were led to believe they could play). Look at hutton orbital, drama central. Even gunning down noobs in the starter systems is technically fine but FD do nothing to dissuade it (like making more than 1 bloody starter system or having an effective npc police force). They should just leave pvp as it is and work on a much needed not crappy mission system and at least we can salvage something out of the game.

I have zero faith in FD at this point and I don't even believe that they'll have vr support for cv 1 by the time I get mine in April. The whole experience has soured me.

I agree that it would have been nice IF there was a real PvP motivation in the game. What I realized back in March last year, during the Lugh War, was how the game was truly designed. That incident forced most of our supporters out of Open. The distraction of PvP was slowing down the ability of the Crimson State Group to win the day. I posted my feelings about this situation in the Open vs. thread and the protected discussion thread about the Open vs. discussion. Once that was done...I realized that PvP was probably doomed at some point as that player base came to realize they really had nothing to do in the game other than shoot each other.

 

[Distance]

I agree that it would have been nice IF there was a real PvP motivation in the game. What I realized back in March last year, during the Lugh War, was how the game was truly designed. That incident forced most of our supporters out of Open. The distraction of PvP was slowing down the ability of the Crimson State Group to win the day. I posted my feelings about this situation in the Open vs. thread and the protected discussion thread about the Open vs. discussion. Once that was done...I realized that PvP was probably doomed at some point as that player base came to realize they really had nothing to do in the game other than shoot each other.

Lugh was some of the most fun pvp I had in the game. TBH it showed the biggest problem with the game model and pvp and that's going solo/group to compete. In the interest of "fairness" FD neglected to act in favour of pvp back then and it's died a slow death.

I still see pp and cqc as the tipping point for me. All that time and effort on two things that are pretty much universally loathed. If only they had stuck to the ddf (which is what got people's imaginations and made up back early) I think people wouldn't be so annoyed at how pvp has gone. I know a ton of people who grinded their asses off to get good ships and were then faced with the dreaded "what do I do now?". Certainly not missions lol

 

[Darian]

I think they should focus on content and allow pvp to die silently.
Why?

PvP means ships have to be build for it, there is no other alternative beside getting blasted.
The same as for any mmo, as soon you have pvp there is nothing else (you are either building for pvp or you are an carebear)

If ships take on roles you need to play in groups (parties) so the less offensive ships and the less defensive ships aid each other, no way around.

So you have to sit in an station and wait for the right people to show up (boring)

There is nothing else as soon pvp comes into play, gamemechanics do not allow it, it is that simple.

You can have games with content who tell a story or an game with an story that gives you an excuse to pvp, but not booth, ego shooters and games (like, telling a story, building a world) can not co exist.

Shroud of the avatar proofs it, they have pvp and that means you char has to be build for it, aside minor variations cookie cutter chars, everyone uses the same spells and weapons and the one with more luck or less lagg wins.

NPC AI will for a long time not match player intelligence, the ships generated for NPCs can not match that of players (if you make pirates so strong the super pvp players come in trouble the average player will be blown away by them

So there goes your PVE right out of the window.

ED is not skill based (in the sense of DandD so there is no way to buff NPC to an challenging level for the individual player, with the player self the "skill set" and therefore invisible to the AI there is no way.

So if we go for pvp in ED we end up with everyone flying very similar ships and that is that.

They could as well do away with all the ships and everyone gets a bufgfed up python so we all can pewpew in an balanced manner (trading would destroy your carefully min maxed pvp build anyways right?)

I do not see the point to turn ED into another game that is ruined from the pvp crowd demanding that everything has to be tweaked for there needs, I want content, i want story, i want things to explore and i want if at all group with others to do stuff, there are plenty of games where people can have at it against each other.


My vote is remove pvp from the game and use the time wasted right now on pvp to add content to the game.

You can either make a game for pvp or pve, booth is not possible as things are.

ED was never made with pvp as an focus and if you want an "living breathign galaxy" pvp is impossible to archieve because it does not allow for any game mechanics other than pvp (as yourself why traders or miners should bother playing it then where they are nothign but easy targets.)

 

[PiLhEaD]

No, sorry, a very silly suggestion. Asking any minority special interest self-selecting group to help 'balance' the ships is an absolute non-starter.

I'm not saying you that don't have feel you have valid concerns, but so do the explorers, the miners, the bounty hunters, the traders, the smugglers and so on, we all have 'skin in the game' mate.

And each one of our various opinions will be much like haircuts. We'll all have one, and they will all be different.

 

[Etherimp]

No, sorry, a very silly suggestion. Asking any minority special interest self-selecting group to help 'balance' the ships is an absolute non-starter.

I'm not saying you that don't have feel you have valid concerns, but so do the explorers, the miners, the bounty hunters, the traders, the smugglers and so on, we all have 'skin in the game' mate.

And each one of our various opinions will be much like haircuts. We'll all have one, and they will all be different.

Clearly you did not read the entire thread.

 

[GluttonyFang]

I think they should focus on content and allow pvp to die silently.

My vote is remove pvp from the game and use the time wasted right now on pvp to add content to the game.

You can either make a game for pvp or pve

Hah... I facepawed so hard I knocked myself out for half a day...

 

[CaptainKremmen]

...
if you make pirates so strong the super pvp players come in trouble the average player will be blown away by them

So there goes your PVE right out of the window.
...

That's able to be addressed quite effectively by system security levels. But that's another story.

 

[Distance]

That's able to be addressed quite effectively by system security levels. But that's another story.

That's been pretty much the biggest problem with open and pvp since day one. If they had worked on this first and foremost instead of say pp and cqc I doubt we'd be having this conversation now

 

[Roybe]

Lugh was some of the most fun pvp I had in the game. TBH it showed the biggest problem with the game model and pvp and that's going solo/group to compete. In the interest of "fairness" FD neglected to act in favour of pvp back then and it's died a slow death.

I still see pp and cqc as the tipping point for me. All that time and effort on two things that are pretty much universally loathed. If only they had stuck to the ddf (which is what got people's imaginations and made up back early) I think people wouldn't be so annoyed at how pvp has gone. I know a ton of people who grinded their asses off to get good ships and were then faced with the dreaded "what do I do now?". Certainly not missions lol

That's been pretty much the biggest problem with open and pvp since day one. If they had worked on this first and foremost instead of say pp and cqc I doubt we'd be having this conversation now

Although there was lots of PvP to be had in Lugh...the real work of the game was being done in the CZ's killing NPC's..and the Federation chappies grinding out the Cap ships. Our whole contingent, 400+ people, went to Private on the second day because we all understood how to win the game by then. There was a lot of teeth grinding and gritting to do this...mainly because we all were Open players and wanted to fight the players. However, the only way we could even come close to winning was hoping that no one realized how the game was supposed to be played...and outgrind the locusts...as we were outnumbered 2:1 almost the whole time. We realized at that time that the game was a grind fest. And would never be anything except that...at least on the level of factions and the BGS. When we saw PP...we knew what was what.

What PvP folks have failed to realize is that the game is not designed for them...at all. FD has not 'neglected' PvP. They have expanded on their vision of how PvP works in this game. That's why PP and CG's have been constantly updated and focused on. FD's answer to PvP is CQC...which IS a controversial idea as PvP players want to play with the equipment they own and builds they create. The idea of CQC is PvP..it is a different style of PvP than that many of the PvP players desire.

As far as 'universally loathed'...I think there could be a discussion..but we have no idea how many people partake in either so any discussion just comes down to rhetoric. I do know the reddits for all the Powers are active...so someone is playing it. I also know there are enough folks playing it to push Lugh's undermining over 3000% every week. So it is no where near death.

The problem with PvP in this game has been the PvP players expectations of having an affect on the galaxy around them. Those were certainly incorrect. At least in a 'direct-shoot someone in the face' manner. Those people add color and interest to Open...but as far as moving yardsticks, systems, blocking trade, etc. it will never happen...at least under the rules the developers have espoused since the beginning of the game.

Although I wish it could be different....as I said...I came to terms with this idea months ago.

 

[Distance]

Not designed for pvp but marketed towards it in a sense. If you show videos of a multiplayer game to the general public and it has space ships flying around shooting each other then people are going to get that idea. After reading the ddf about smuggling and piracy you also had FD telling players that these were viable roles to play.

In practice it was another story as even though players were in open they were butt hurt about getting pulled over. PVE players wanted everything their own way (solo, group and open) and FD too scared to step up and say, actually this is how it should be in open.

The sad thing about cqc is fd have always said "play your way in a cut throat galaxy" but if you want to shoot each other do it here. It's laughable tbh. I find it even more condescending towards console players as it's insinuated that they required a whole new game mode to be able to "get" the game. A waste of money and dev resources in my opinion.

In Lugh I was one of the few fighting for lugh in open hitting the CG's with a wing to drive the fed players out. That was what was fun as each time you dropped in you didn't know if you were going to be outnumbered or if you'd have the edge. That's the problem, you talk about the "real work in lugh". The grind is more important than the fun in ED. The fun doesn't pay so when you've grinded your ass off to afford decent ships to have fun in there's all to do. That's why you get people shooting noobs in the starter systems. and due to the nature of the game there's no way to punish them as they can highwake or log out in seconds. It's one thing to have intentional imbalance in games to keep them fun but the whole game in broken towards the side of whoever is being attacked (unless you're a noob in the starter systems).

Honest piracy is frowned upon by most players and now you've got the situation that there's fewer player pirates but tons of psychotic npc pirates interdicting and killing a ridiculous amount. Players have rarely played like that except the few bad apples.

It's just really sad tbh there was so much potential for pvp if we had realised that the lifeless bubble we had in beta was going to be the full game in the long run. The best parts of beta were the populated systems, freeport in particular.

 

[Etherimp]

Although there was lots of PvP to be had in Lugh...the real work of the game was being done in the CZ's killing NPC's..and the Federation chappies grinding out the Cap ships. Our whole contingent, 400+ people, went to Private on the second day because we all understood how to win the game by then. There was a lot of teeth grinding and gritting to do this...mainly because we all were Open players and wanted to fight the players. However, the only way we could even come close to winning was hoping that no one realized how the game was supposed to be played...and outgrind the locusts...as we were outnumbered 2:1 almost the whole time. We realized at that time that the game was a grind fest. And would never be anything except that...at least on the level of factions and the BGS. When we saw PP...we knew what was what.

What PvP folks have failed to realize is that the game is not designed for them...at all. FD has not 'neglected' PvP. They have expanded on their vision of how PvP works in this game. That's why PP and CG's have been constantly updated and focused on. FD's answer to PvP is CQC...which IS a controversial idea as PvP players want to play with the equipment they own and builds they create. The idea of CQC is PvP..it is a different style of PvP than that many of the PvP players desire.

As far as 'universally loathed'...I think there could be a discussion..but we have no idea how many people partake in either so any discussion just comes down to rhetoric. I do know the reddits for all the Powers are active...so someone is playing it. I also know there are enough folks playing it to push Lugh's undermining over 3000% every week. So it is no where near death.

The problem with PvP in this game has been the PvP players expectations of having an affect on the galaxy around them. Those were certainly incorrect. At least in a 'direct-shoot someone in the face' manner. Those people add color and interest to Open...but as far as moving yardsticks, systems, blocking trade, etc. it will never happen...at least under the rules the developers have espoused since the beginning of the game.

Although I wish it could be different....as I said...I came to terms with this idea months ago.

The problem with Power-play in this game (mainly), is that there's no real "community", in game. The community that there is, is fragmented..

Example: non-combat powers without good bonuses (because bonuses/unique modules are underpowered) such as Denton, Torval, Sirius, and Antal, have a very small and organized player-base. They can (barely) afford to fortify their own systems and if they receive any real opposition they crumble under the pressure, and they do not have a large enough active (and coordinating) community to launch any major offensives.

Hudson and ALD, on the other hand, have overpowered bonuses (combat expansions, good or decent unique modules, and good bonuses w/ bounty hunting) so they attract the largest player-base, but this is a blessing *and* a curse. As a member of the ALD mod team, (and I am sure Hudsonites can sympathize with this), our greatest enemy is often our own "silent" player-base. I dunno if these people are in private or solo or if they just have no idea how power-play works and they play in open, or a combination of all 3, but they will prep horrible systems and expand into horrible systems without any care for how much that system would hurt the entire powers economy. The blessing side of it is... if we happen to get a good expansion, they will grind that as well, so it's almost impossible to oppose it.

Then you have the powers in the "middle ground", such as Aisling, Winters, and Mahon. None of them are hugely threatening on the combat front, but their player-base is generally small enough to be manageable while being large enough to fortify the majority (or all) of their profitable systems, making it difficult to actually do much to them.

So.. Do people play PP? Yes. But the majority of the people use power-play as a method of grinding 50,000,000 credits a week while the people who actually care about the weekly cycle outcomes cringe at 3000% undermining/fortification in a system.

PP has produced some interesting PVP opportunities (HIP 44811 was pretty much like a mini-CG), but over-all I'm becoming very jaded with the entire system.

PvP and PP are my two interest in this game, and both of them are incredibly broken/mismanaged.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

Not designed for pvp but marketed towards it in a sense. If you show videos of a multiplayer game to the general public and it has space ships flying around shooting each other then people are going to get that idea. After reading the ddf about smuggling and piracy you also had FD telling players that these were viable roles to play.

In practice it was another story as even though players were in open they were butt hurt about getting pulled over. PVE players wanted everything their own way (solo, group and open) and FD too scared to step up and say, actually this is how it should be in open.

The sad thing about cqc is fd have always said "play your way in a cut throat galaxy" but if you want to shoot each other do it here. It's laughable tbh. I find it even more condescending towards console players as it's insinuated that they required a whole new game mode to be able to "get" the game. A waste of money and dev resources in my opinion.

In Lugh I was one of the few fighting for lugh in open hitting the CG's with a wing to drive the fed players out. That was what was fun as each time you dropped in you didn't know if you were going to be outnumbered or if you'd have the edge. That's the problem, you talk about the "real work in lugh". The grind is more important than the fun in ED. The fun doesn't pay so when you've grinded your ass off to afford decent ships to have fun in there's all to do. That's why you get people shooting noobs in the starter systems. and due to the nature of the game there's no way to punish them as they can highwake or log out in seconds. It's one thing to have intentional imbalance in games to keep them fun but the whole game in broken towards the side of whoever is being attacked (unless you're a noob in the starter systems).

Honest piracy is frowned upon by most players and now you've got the situation that there's fewer player pirates but tons of psychotic npc pirates interdicting and killing a ridiculous amount. Players have rarely played like that except the few bad apples.

It's just really sad tbh there was so much potential for pvp if we had realised that the lifeless bubble we had in beta was going to be the full game in the long run. The best parts of beta were the populated systems, freeport in particular.

I feel like my words are coming out of your mouth (keyboard).

 

[Darian]

Hah... I facepawed so hard I knocked myself out for half a day...

Then explain to me how you want to avoid the "all use very similar ship builds or end up loosing to the first PC they encounter" problem.

ALL games with pvp lack diversity in character(ship) builds.

And that is natural, either you char (ship) is geared for pvp combat or lose you do. It is an mathematical equation.

So in the end it is newbies in the newbie ships and all others in the flavour of the day equipped to max dps min dmg ship

Any form of "roleplay" has to take second seat to "perfect balance"

 

[GluttonyFang]

Fold

Do you have a grasp as to what level of customer betrayal they are looking at if they removed PvP? If they want to avoid that, do you know how many people they have to refund?

Now to answer the questions you have.

As for your first question, what makes you think winning is all people care about in player encounter? Do you know the amount of tools FD provide for people to avoid/escape encounters?

Now, for the second one, what makes you think PvP in this game is all about 1v1? When the enemies use a certain build, there always exist a counter. Meta are sure to exist, but criticizing the existence of meta means you are either naive, haven't played much competitive games, or you just want an easy point in an argument.

Thirdly, noobs are obviously going to be inexperienced in both combat and ship outfitting experience, so I don't see why a learning curve is anything bad.

So in the end, I am willing to conclude that you probably just didn't have a good experience in any of the games you played before that incorporate or focus on PvP so you bring up obvious points that are easily countered, but of course, it's just a speculation.

 

[shambles1980]

ok. so my fave mmo of all time was released in 1996 it was the 1st one to be graphics and a everything (basically what other mmorpgs now are)
the game is still up and running now but with only about 50 or so player from the thousands who used to play..

it was about 2000 when the player base shattered and people started leaving. i was one of the 1st to go (although i did come back about 9 years later for a while)

and what killed it was simple.
They destroyed pvp.

In that game you could have /nocombat and you could not be attacked by others so the pve ppl were happy.
you also had a place called tourney grove where you could pvp but not lose any items lvls or xp if you lost.
you had standard pvp areas (almost every where else) where if you died you lost items and levels.
and you had forest of death where losses were 3x worse.

This was all accepted people focused builds on pvp or pve or both and every thing was well balanced.
They they decided to remove 1 thing. and replace it with a nother. and it destroyed it all. made 1 class type an "i win" build. pitting 2 of these against each other resulted in a stale mate.
and the pvp players left.

the pve players started dwindling away as the community had effectively halved over night.
and now here we are 20 years later with 50 players still in there hoping that something will change and the people will come back.
But its to late now..

And all because they broke pvp.

 

[lenna]

I have not read the entirety of this thread but I have at least skimmed most of it and believe I have the ghist of the key points of the debate.
---
To say there is no diversity in builds in this game (or other PvP enabled games) is a bit like saying that EVERYONE who plays such games are min-maxers/meta-build players which is definitely not true. I know that I do not meta-play in general and use builds I want to use rather than what others think are optimal for a given task.
---
Also to say that you can't succeed in PvP without adopting such practices is in general as it disregards tactics or skill as factors. IMO though Meta-build players/advocates are the true cancer of open world PvP/PvX/MP-PvE gaming but this seems to be the crowd that many games companies seem to be catering to.
---
With specific regard to CQC, I believe it is meant to be a same/similar ship challenge arena so the ability to win/lose should be primarily about tactics and skill, but almost certainly there will be an element of luck in there as well. If people want a wider range of match up options then fair enough but I believe you should not expect a large degree of ship mismatches.
---
With specific regards to PvP and the sandbox element of this game, the whole thing (unless in Solo) is a PvX environment and wrt level of difficulty for any given activity it largely depends on which activities people participate in and what risks we each choose to take. If you want a greater challenge, try running around in a less than optimal build for example. If you are finding elements of the game too challenging, then you probably need to learn your personal limits and how to compensate for (or beat them). The game it self could do without being generally rebalanced in favour of one group or another, as it currently stands I believe FD have the overall balance about right.
---
The NPC AI will almost certainly never be at a level to be directly comparable to potential PC Skill levels and the current AI is probably far from perfect but it can offer a degree of challenge (and can prove fatale if you run some of the more extreme min-max meta builds). This I do believe is fair and reasonable.
---
Open is not a PvP exclusive powerhouse despite what some like to try to assert, the game in general is an open world PvX environment and could do without being tailored in favour of (in-game) pro-PvP war mongers, pirates, psychopaths, sociopaths, and murderers. IF such people want more of the kill-or-be-killed-a-minute type of game play then CQC should perhaps be expanded upon with non-competitive no-holds-barred "scrapping" arenas.
---
I am not saying the pro-PvP crowd should be ignored or that PvP should be removed from the open world setting but lets hope FD do not pander to their whims either (unlike certain other games that over the years that have pandered to the PvP elements and ruined the gameplay for many RP and PvE players as a direct result). As it currently stands, FD seems to be taking EVERYONEs views into account wrt the open world element and adjusting the game mechanics in order to ensure a healthily balanced PvX environment (or at least heading in that direction).