PvP shouldn't be restricted solely to combat. I would however like to see more features encouraging player on player interaction in open play!
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By that logic why don't you go to a game solely based around pve for your pve fix?
True true, that color is blinding me a little though, just saying.
Let's put this simply... I have already pointed out one of your suggestions which I see a serious flaw with.
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As for SCBs never use them and never plan to use them, the original SCB concept is fair but I prefer more sustainable options to the recharge concerns such as Bio-Weave Shields.
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As for PvP in Elite, I have ZERO interest in it in general - like with most MMOs I play and have played, I may dabble in it occasionally but it holds no sustained interest for me. That is not to say I am no good at it, just not interested in it really from the get-go. However, I do appreciate that some do have an interest in PvP elements and my original point was more a general "hold up a bit, lets not get TOO focused on one type of gameplay" rather than any specific concerns (the general sense of the thread seemed to be heading that way IMO). The Pro-PvP crowd can spout on all day about how fun it is, but it is a case for me of "been there, done that" were PvP gameplay in general is concerned. I am more into co-operative PvE and RP than getting embroiled in PvP.
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As for PvE/PvX combat in general, as it stands since v1.5/v2.0 the state of things seems pretty ok to me. Some room for improvement perhaps but given some of the changes in the pipeline for Horizons I would rather wait for FD to get the first RC of the anticipated functionality before passing judgement.
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From what a friend of mine (who is probably more combat focused than me) has said, FA/OFF is generally the skill to master if you want to excel at combat regardless of the ship or type of opponent (PC or NPC). Personally, I have managed to date with FA/ON in most PvE situations and have yet to be killed for any reason except my own stupidity really (that is not to say the AI is not a threat, IMO it is). Odd stupid mistakes, not many though thankfully (death cost is a pain).
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@Gluttonyfang: To cut to the chase, how about we just agree to ignore each others posts in future - it will make the forum a much nicer place overall.
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A point that has been raised many times over the history of this forum, However...
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It does have a PvP element but the origins of the Elite franchise is pure PvE and that is still were the strength of the game is IMO.
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It can quite reasonably be called a PvX game (aka a PvE/PvP hybrid) but the PvP element relies quite heavily on opposing players frequenting common regions of space. Given the size of the Environment, the probability of random PvP is quite low. Community Events and Power Play activities increase the probability of PvP interactions but that is generally contained to Open which at least some players try to avoid for a variety of reasons - mainly to avoid certain types of personalities or behaviours.
I agree with ALL your points but 4.
As said I agreed with all your points but not with the one that had the meaning of limiting. If we get the 12 out of your 13 correct and nice proposals, why care about the number of hull reinforcements (which should be available indeed and already asked, in all sizes), and shield cell banks, if you could have that nice alternatives of of a) repair via drone limpet controller the modules, combat drones, automated repair maintenance unit etc.)
Ok, a bit more detail focused on your points...
- SCBs and Hull Reinforcements - Apples and Oranges IMO the two things serve different purposes. IMO it is fair that one type of ship benefits more from one kind of upgrade than the other.
- Speed and Manouverability - Covered this earlier but to summarise, only if NPC wingmen are added otherwise please leave as is.
- Reduce heat output of SCBs - Not sure about this one, but I do not believe the Courier is as bad as you make it out to be.
- Limiting SCBs/Hull Reinforcements - Disagree, no need to IMO.
- Missiles - I know people who do use them and find them quite viable. Individually they may be quite weak but load up a few of them and they can be VERY effective. Not sure if messing with the balance of them is wise.
- Mines - Ok, a well known issue and not just from a PvP perspective.
- Boost Speed/Range "Nitro" - Like the idea, synthesis anyone? But at a heat (or engine component damage) cost perhaps.
- AFMU - From what I know, the restricting factor is it has to turn off what is being repaired while it is being repaired. This is a fair and reasonable limitation IMO.
- Repair Limpets - Like the idea, been raised elsewhere I believe.
- Attack Limpets - Not sure, would prefer NPC wingmen to this.
- Size 4 weapon variants - Agree but balance would be a concern (not many ships fit them and they could become big I WIN buttons)
- PP unique equipment - Tricky one, I am not sure I agree with the original idea but in general perhaps just add Class 2-3/4 variants of the guns (as I understand it there are only class 1 variants in the main).
- Stealth v NPCs - I thought this did work already to at least some degree (I have heard of smugglers using silent running to avoid scans while docking), once you fire though I believe even PCs can target you. I am not sure how it should work in certain cases though (e.g. they interdicted you and have line of sight so should be able to shoot you).
In general though, despite the original title of this thread (which is tantamount to click-bait for non-PVPers IMO) your points are more general (almost nothing to do with PvP specifically) and I believe most of the topics have already been raised elsewhere.
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Not apples and oranges. Shields and Hull = Tank/effective hit points. Different kinds of tank. Some ships have naturally strong shields, some ships have naturally strong hull. Some ships make better shield tanks, some better hull tanks.
Example: FAS vs FDL. FAS = Hull, FdL = shield.
NPC wingmen ARE being added, and if you added attack drones, it would mitigate the speed/maneuverability of small ships considerably.
You don't PvP. The Courier is not good anymore. It's one of my favorite ships, btw, so I would love to say it's awesome. It's just not anymore.
Yeah. As I said , I think this one is the most likely to actually impact PVE negatively, and it's just an "option" I threw in for the people who are concerned about "20 minute long pvp encounters".. The trick is for FDev to balance SCB's and Hull Reinf's so that you don't WANT to stack them in your internal compartments because you have other options.
1. Missiles are useless against shields.
2. Missiles have very limited ammo so they're next to useless for PVE
3. Now that most people stack hull reinforcements of some kind, missiles do virtually nothing to hull.
4. By the time you get a shield tanks shields down, they'll just high wake, and against a hull tank ship you'll run out of ammo before they run out of hull
Right..
I agree.. It should create TONS of heat, like your ship is going to burn up, but it should give you a long "nitro boost" which will allow you to escape any situation. An alternative to this would be a 1 use per trip instant FSD charge.. Or perhaps both! This would give Trade ships or other PVE players an option to escape an unfavorable PVP encounter, should they wish.. This would open the door to removing "high waking" or making it more difficult to just high-wake out of any encounter.
I agree it's fair and reasonable, until you consider that if your FSD or Power-Generator are destroyed in PVP it means you're dead in the water. If I could sacrifice a Size 3 internal compartment to ensure that my FSD or Power Generator would be VERY difficult to fully destroy/disable, I would take it every time. Currently, the AMFU just isn't (very) useful for PVPers, which is why they never use it.. If you gave it a practical use in combat, it would become VERY useful, but I don't think overly so.
Good.
Why not both? Attack limpets would be extremely useful on a ship like the Asp or on a Type-6, or even a Cutter that has limited maneuverability. The Asp, however, isn't large enough to carry a fighter inside of it. Furthermore, "NPC wingmen" aren't very appealing to the PVP crowd, I don't think. Not saying we shouldn't have them, but I think PVPers would prefer limpets/drones to an NPC condor. Or, maybe this is just my preference.
There's a Size 4 Cannon and size 4 PA already.. 2 of the more powerful weapons in the game, and they are not "I win" buttons anymore than anything else. Do they do massive damage? Yes. But a C4 PA also requires a metric asston of power to keep active, and it's expensive (30 mil?), and while it does 97 MJ's of damage, it's hardly "overpowered". The specific numbers required to balance a Huge Beam, Huge Pulse, Huge Burst, or Huge Railgun can be worked out pretty easily.
No.. The Class variants are all different. APA's are Large (C3), Pulse Disruptors are C2, scramblers are C1(?), Imperial Hammers are C2, etc.
It used to work.. Now it doesn't. It's been broken.
A lot of the topics have been raised elsewhere. As far as being click-baity... No. As I said in the original post: PVPERS UNDERSTAND THE BALANCE OF MODULES/WEAPONS/SHIPS BETTER THAN ANYONE BECAUSE WE TEST THEM IN THEIR MOST EXTREME CIRCUMSTANCES.
This is NOT to say that PVPers would change everything to screw over the PVE crowd... We'd just try to find balance in things because we understand the current flaws many modules/ships have.
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This is what makes me sad about this community.
"IF YOU WANT PVP GO SOMEWHERE ELSE! THIS GAME WAS NOT MEANT FOR PVP."
Okay.. I'll go play something else. Thanks for ruining a game which could be potentially awesome for PVP by remaining extremely close-minded and judgmental towards people who have a different way of enjoying this game than you do. (Speaking generally here, not toward you.)
Awww, here, have a hug.
My face is going to have a paw print soon @_@...
WRT NPC Wingmen - my understanding was they were not being added, neither is NPC crews. I used to think they were being added but in a recent discussion with a friend who normally keeps a closer eye on the ED news than me they indicated that NPC Wingmen/Crews were not going to be added.
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WRT SCB and HR .... one is a consumable recharge mechanic, the other is just an additive element (c/f Reinforced and Military Grade Armor) thus are sufficiently different to be not directly comparable.
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I have a friend who likes the courier and has used it a lot - I do not believe they have depended on SCBs to make best use of it. However, they did fit their main courier with Prismatic Shields. If your claim is the SCB changes make a particular ship useless then perhaps you did not know how it was intended to used in the first place? Nothing to do with PvE/PvP divide in that regard really.
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I know what Class 4 weapons there are... WRT the Class 4 weapons in general, with other weapons balancing could become a major concern. Cannons and PAs are big slow firing guns designed for big ships to kill other big ships primarily (as I understand it). A Class 4 multi-cannon could turn out to be really OP, I have tried comparable ideas when modding another game - fun for a while, but quickly proves to be OP in the main.
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WRT attack limpets - c/f my earlier comment plus I have never really been a big fan of drone swarms (which is basically what you are talking about) and in an MMO like ED it may be impractical because of several issues (network bandwidth being one - I know at least one gamer who has issues if there are too many players in a given area - never mind adding attack drones to the mix).
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As for PvPers understanding balance better than anyone else, complete and utter tosh IMO. Where game balance is concerned in ANY game, the whole thing is very subjective. It is that line of reasoning (PvPers know best) that has probably lead to so many screw-ups in balancing of other games. Your re-iteration of that POV just reinforces my point of concern to my mind (not refute it).
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WRT SCB and HR .... one is a consumable recharge mechanic, the other is just an additive element (c/f Reinforced and Military Grade Armor) thus are sufficiently different to be not directly comparable.
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I have a friend who likes the courier and has used it a lot - I do not believe they have depended on SCBs to make best use of it. However, they did fit their main courier with Prismatic Shields. If your claim is the SCB changes make a particular ship useless then perhaps you did not know how it was intended to used in the first place? Nothing to do with PvE/PvP divide in that regard really.
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I know what Class 4 weapons there are... WRT the Class 4 weapons in general, with other weapons balancing could become a major concern. Cannons and PAs are big slow firing guns designed for big ships to kill other big ships primarily (as I understand it). A Class 4 multi-cannon could turn out to be really OP, I have tried comparable ideas when modding another game - fun for a while, but quickly proves to be OP in the main.
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WRT attack limpets - c/f my earlier comment plus I have never really been a big fan of drone swarms (which is basically what you are talking about) and in an MMO like ED it may be impractical because of several issues (network bandwidth being one - I know at least one gamer who has issues if there are too many players in a given area - never mind adding attack drones to the mix).
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As for PvPers understanding balance better than anyone else, complete and utter tosh IMO. Where game balance is concerned in ANY game, the whole thing is very subjective. It is that line of reasoning (PvPers know best) that has probably lead to so many screw-ups in balancing of other games. Your re-iteration of that POV just reinforces my point of concern to my mind (not refute it).
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1. Hull reinforcements and SCB's both add to the "Effective HP" of a ship. SCB's do not help you if you do not use them (or your shields drop before using them), and Hull reinforcements help you stay alive but only mitigate a percentage of module damage (which is much more likely to disable a heavily armored ship.) .. Point is, SCB's and Hull Reinforcements should be a viable option for small OR large ships and should scale equally. This is a no-brainer, so not sure what your problem is with it.
2. I run Prismatics on my Courier, as well. The ship is trash for PVE and trash for PVP. It doesn't have enough sustain for PVE and it doesn't have *ANYTHING* that makes it a good PVP ship anymore. It used to be passable because you could have 550MJ shields with several recharges with SCB's.. now, equipping the ship with SCB's is virtually suicide, so you have to resort to Hull Reinforcements... on a ship that is effectively NOT designed to hull tank.
3. There's no networking issues involved with having attack/repair limpets.. Limpets are already in the game and attack/repair limpets would function similarly. Furthermore, "swarming" would be limited by the amount of modules you had which could fire drones and how many drones those modules can launch. Some ships, obviously, if built purely as a drone boat, could create rather massive swarms, but they would also be sacrificing valuable defenses and stressing their energy requirements, which would mean they would have to sacrifice SCB's, Shields, Shield Boosters, or high-impact weapons such as PA's, Rails, Beams, Bursts, etc.
4. PvPers don't inherently understand balance better than anyone else but they understand the limitations and capabilities of modules/ships better than anyone else. Sorry, but this truth is self-evident. Most (many) PVE players I come across aren't even aware you can high-wake out of any PVP situation. Most of them are not aware of MANY combat mechanics. Many of them don't even know how to do a simple 180 FA-Off flip, which is a fundamental PVP maneuver.
Yeah this is ridiculous. I have the feeling that half the people here are 40+ y/o risk averse dads that want a slow paced game where the chance of randomly losing your ship is minimized. If you dont want PvP thats ok. But dont tell the rest of us what we should like or which game is for us and which isn't. The ship balance issue hurts both aspects of the game and if you dont see how some ships simply suck then that is your problem. Currently there are several ships that are massively better at destroying others (be it npc's or players). Making half the other ships in the game obsolete without balancing them is just bad design.
There is place for PvP and Pve in the game. If someone doesnt like getting shot at by other players, he can go hide in solo or private group. I dont actively do PvP, but I am always in open. Getting interdicted by a player gets my heart racing and its very exciting. In my entire career I have interdicted several ships, mainly for RP purposes ("This is the space police, sumbit to a scan" etc) and shot one of them when he didnt respond at all. Didn't destroy him, but it got my heart racing. Player vs player interaction simply gives the Elite a completely different feel, which I find great for the diversity. Otherwise the game feels empty and boring.
Edit: Oh and btw some people here will disagree, but influencing power play from solo mode completely defeats the purpose of this faction warfare aspect of ED. :/ it made me simply drop it and stop bothering.
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Are you being ageist or daddist? Or both?
Well for you it's obviously not, but let's continue.
I submit to your better judgement on which ships are better. For me, if it's not an Asp Explorer, it's not worth flying.
No player hides anywhere. They play as they wish to play.
RP being a player with a bad connection then.
There IS no player faction warfare in Elite - only NPC factions and player groups supporting or detracting them.
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Some thoughts from a avowed PvE douchebag:
I note the following - to me obvious - line of reasoning missing:
* There is a designated, pure PvP mode in ED - CQC.
* It's not what (a part of?) the PvP crowd wants - I get that from this thread
* Thus, improve/remake it that appeals PvP more.
This could only serve for some quick pewpew, as there is no connection to the BGS (ie. PP or player-backed minor factions). But with some strictly controlled environment, balancing issues would be much more apparent. Such 'arenas' might serve as a testing ground for balancing.
The results might prove hard to translate into the main game - there are no traders in a PvP arena - but a fun PvP mode, wouldn't that already be some progress? Is CQC beyond hope as-is?
The list of improvements is pretty good, esp. the repair limpets. Those would allow for players/the Fuel Rats to update to full emergency services.
Extending this idea, I propose
* ammo storage in internal compartments (also for personal usage?)
* ammo transfer limpits
for the new role of 'baggage ships'. Refuel, repair, rearm right where you need it. I assume this to be an interesting element for large scale PvP wing operations - if properly balanced.
I note the following - to me obvious - line of reasoning missing:
* There is a designated, pure PvP mode in ED - CQC.
* It's not what (a part of?) the PvP crowd wants - I get that from this thread
* Thus, improve/remake it that appeals PvP more.
This could only serve for some quick pewpew, as there is no connection to the BGS (ie. PP or player-backed minor factions). But with some strictly controlled environment, balancing issues would be much more apparent. Such 'arenas' might serve as a testing ground for balancing.
The results might prove hard to translate into the main game - there are no traders in a PvP arena - but a fun PvP mode, wouldn't that already be some progress? Is CQC beyond hope as-is?
The list of improvements is pretty good, esp. the repair limpets. Those would allow for players/the Fuel Rats to update to full emergency services.
Extending this idea, I propose
* ammo storage in internal compartments (also for personal usage?)
* ammo transfer limpits
for the new role of 'baggage ships'. Refuel, repair, rearm right where you need it. I assume this to be an interesting element for large scale PvP wing operations - if properly balanced.
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