Fer de lance and expected python nerf

cherny_prapor · Jan 21, 2015

Maxwellou said:
Sooooo, basically we won't be able to have a medium/large ship without the absolute obligation to mount turrets on it ?
So what's the point of Gimballed and fixed weapons then ?

That's the point of a bigger ship - you can't defend your butt against a smaller faster opponent without wingmen or turrets. It's completely fine that way.

Maxwellou said:
Why the multi-purpose Cobra as the same maneuvrability and EXACTLY the same hardpoints as the "CLEARLY ALL POWER IN COMBAT-FIGHTING-DOGFIGHTING FRIKKIN' " Viper ??
Buff the viper a little or nerf the Cobra then.
See ? I can also invocate the nerfbat.

The Viper is much more maneuverable than the Cobra. The hardpoints are also slightly worse on the Cobra - you can't mount 2 fixed guns in small HPs on a Cobra, because they are too far apart and will not hit the same spot, so only gimballed goes there. Both the Cobra and the Viper are balanced just right - they can shine in skilled hands, and at the same time they suck if the pilot is a noob. This concept shouldn't be any diferent with a larger ship, otherwise it's "pay to win".

Puppie · Jan 21, 2015

I don't see the issue with the python being as manoeuvrable as a cobra, its just a matter of overcoming inertia, the python has a greater class of thrusters, among other things, then the cobra, hence the massive cost difference.

Working as designed as far as i am concerned.

SuperkewL · Jan 21, 2015

Lyker said:
Hey. Im currantly trading in my type7.
I will soon be able to upgrade and I was thinking about going for Python. Ok trader and beast combat what i heard.

My concers are however:
1. Do we expect python to be hevily nerfed?
2. What if fer the lance comes out and is favorible vs the python.

What do you think?

Here is the post everyone is freaking out about. They said they were going to drop the manuverablilty "a tad". I dont think a tad means heavily. It would seem people are making mountains out of molehills.

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=86856&page=17&p=1556219&highlight=python#post1556219

CATPAIN KIRK · Jan 21, 2015

Innocence said:
Hmm, at 14:01 you can see the Anaconda has 51% Hull left, then it explodes the second after. That doesn't seem right does it?

Werppa said:
Yeah I don't know if it's a bug or what but NPC Anacondas tend to blow up at 60ish hull integrity.

he's targeting the reactor - once that has zero integrity, the ship blows up - I thought everyone does that...

Edit: damn I'm slow on a mobile...

cherny_prapor · Jan 21, 2015

Puppie said:
I don't see the issue with the python being as manoeuvrable as a cobra, its just a matter of overcoming inertia, the python has a greater class of thrusters, among other things, then the cobra, hence the massive cost difference.
Working as designed as far as i am concerned.

If we're going the "it's Sci-Fi, so anything is possible" way, then why not make a thruster capable of an acceleration of 100000 m/s^2, so a ship of any mass can turn momentarily to any angle?

parazaine · Jan 21, 2015

Historically, the Fer De lance was the Bounty Hunter's ship of choice.....fast, heavily armed but with v. little cargo space.

I suspect it will have a lot of internals but mostly low class..we will have to wait and see BUT it is a different class of ship to a trader, more of a specialized combat ship

Poseidal · Jan 21, 2015

Puppie said:
I don't see the issue with the python being as manoeuvrable as a cobra, its just a matter of overcoming inertia, the python has a greater class of thrusters, among other things, then the cobra, hence the massive cost difference.

Working as designed as far as i am concerned.

To do it, you need to oversize eight thrusters. Cost shouldn't overcome physics (or at least plausibility/consistency in-game which is the equivalent).

Something's gotta give as well. If you're over-sizing those thrusters, don't expect the armour to be as good and more vulnerable subsystems. Or expect to run hotter and have the dangers of that, because the hull isn't radiating heat as well.

Raz0rking · Jan 21, 2015

Rapscallion74 said:
Here is the post everyone is freaking out about. They said they were going to drop the manuverablilty "a tad". I dont think a tad means heavily. It would seem people are making mountains out of molehills.

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=86856&page=17&p=1556219&highlight=python#post1556219

it is the fact that they lend all the whiners credibility. They cave in for collective offendedness

MJC · Jan 21, 2015

Wolf Starslayer said:
[video=youtube;WRQ52Q6UUaY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRQ52Q6UUaY[/video]
A python really shouldn't die in seconds to a viper, or why buy it?
This is problem for the bigger ships NOW, I know pdt's don't hit dumb-fires atm, but even after you fixed them will they stop a continuous volley @ 30m?

Like I said in another thread money should not buy success.

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=102539&page=2&p=1589768&highlight=#post1589768

Players who own status symbols like pythons and condas but cant fly them properly should suffer the consequences. Players who invest their time in training flying skills and pvp instead of trading/grinding should be rewarded. Well done to viper cmdr - ambush tactics well executed (python pilot should have been more alert and aware).

Puppie · Jan 21, 2015

cherny_prapor said:
If we're going the "it's Sci-Fi, so anything is possible" way, then why not make a thruster capable of an acceleration of 100000 m/s^2, so that a ship of any mass can turn momentarily to any angle without breaking apart and squishing the pilot?

Not Scifi at all, the larger class thrusters can overcome more inertia than smaller class ones, seems pretty obvious i would have thought.

Kyokushin · Jan 21, 2015

Innocence said:
Hmm, at 14:01 you can see the Anaconda has 51% Hull left, then it explodes the second after. That doesn't seem right does it?

It is right, because she get in powerplant.

Maxwellou · Jan 21, 2015

The Viper is much more maneuverable than the Cobra.

One week ago, I still had a Viper and my friend a Cobra. I clearly saw that he had the same maneuvrability as I did. Also -> Cobra is pretty fast for just a "multi-purpose" ship that cheap (see what I did there ?).

The hardpoints are also slightly worse on the Cobra - you can't mount 2 fixed guns in small HPs on a Cobra, because they are too far apart and will not hit the same spot, so only gimballed goes there.

Well then, I'm ok with that. But it still is a very small inconvenient.

Both the Cobra and the Viper are balanced just right - they can shine in skilled hands, and at the same time they suck if the pilot is a noob. This concept shouldn't be any diferent with a larger ship, otherwise it's "pay to win".

Where did I say it should be any different ? Also, any ship with a complete noob inside it will suck.
A friend of mine bought a D3 FSD reactor... For his Cobra. Found himself stuck on a system, died and wasn't able to do anything else. Had to declare bankrupcy. Actually, I had him in chat at th same time, it was hilarious

Alpha November · Jan 21, 2015

cherny_prapor said:
If we're going the "it's Sci-Fi, so anything is possible" way, then why not make a thruster capable of an acceleration of 100000 m/s^2, so a ship of any mass can turn momentarily to any angle?

Going sci-fi? It is sci-fi. Bigger ships have more room for mass, mass can be used for anything so the mass can be used for more thrust. If the thrust/mass ration isn't linear then larger ships could be faster, more manoeuvrable or both. Anyway, little point pursuing this because who knows what will be available in 3300, FD don't make enough info available to gauge any of this stuff (assuming they have a worked out system rather than a hacked atmospheric flight model).

parazaine · Jan 21, 2015

Yes , in the video he has subtargeted the Powerplant and destroys it at 14 minutes....this will kill the ship whatever hull it has left (as will destroying the FSD drive)

Poseidal · Jan 21, 2015

Puppie said:
Not Scifi at all, the larger class thrusters can overcome more inertia than smaller class ones, seems pretty obvious i would have thought.

You gotta pay for that though. I think you have to go much larger, and you have thrusters in multiple directions meaning more thrusters.

There is probably an optimum, but if that optimum is on the Python, why don't the other large ships benefit?

SuperkewL · Jan 21, 2015

Raz0rking said:
it is the fact that they lend all the whiners credibility. They cave in for collective offendedness

I dont think that was the case at all. I just think it performed differently than anticipated, and it is being adjusted accordingly.

kelticfury · Jan 21, 2015

Kyokushin said:
Anaconda is other kind of vessel and it will have possibility to have small craft aboard.

Is this true? Has FD said anything about this as a coming feature?

MJC · Jan 21, 2015

cherny_prapor said:
That's the point of a bigger ship - you can't defend your butt against a smaller faster opponent without wingmen or turrets. It's completely fine that way.

The Viper is much more maneuverable than the Cobra. The hardpoints are also slightly worse on the Cobra - you can't mount 2 fixed guns in small HPs on a Cobra, because they are too far apart and will not hit the same spot, so only gimballed goes there. Both the Cobra and the Viper are balanced just right - they can shine in skilled hands, and at the same time they suck if the pilot is a noob. This concept shouldn't be any diferent with a larger ship, otherwise it's "pay to win".

Well said commander +1. Leave us Cobra / Viper pilots alone - these ships have been tested and balanced since alpha/beta. I also want skill to prevail not "pay to win". Respect

cherny_prapor · Jan 21, 2015

Puppie said:
Not Scifi at all, the larger class thrusters can overcome more inertia than smaller class ones, seems pretty obvious i would have thought.

More - sure, but not to a point when it counters common sense and elementary physics. I'm not saying that it's obviously the case currently, but it's pretty close to that - the Python looks like a cow, but hops around like a hind, which means that the stress on the carcass from the thrust is huge. Of course, "it's 3300, so materials are better than they are now", but everything has its boundaries, right?

Puppie · Jan 21, 2015

Poseidal said:
To do it, you need to oversize eight thrusters. Cost shouldn't overcome physics (or at least plausibility/consistency in-game which is the equivalent).

Something's gotta give as well. If you're over-sizing those thrusters, don't expect the armour to be as good and more vulnerable subsystems. Or expect to run hotter and have the dangers of that, because the hull isn't radiating heat as well.

makes no sense. I am talking about the higher class of thruster being fitted in the python (6) when compared to cobra (4). bigger ship, bigger thrusters to cope with increased inertia.