Yes, perhaps, but in the same class? If a Viper is sufficient to just kill everything else then that doesn't seem right to me. I can see why a group of small fighters would take on a bigger fish but I can't see why game logic is served by making every ship of every class essentially balance for combat. To me, that is not interesting. Medium ship combat and large ship combat should be things in their own right; instead they're owned by a Herbert in a single viper.
Fer de lance and expected python nerf
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Yes, perhaps, but in the same class? If a Viper is sufficient to just kill everything else then that doesn't seem right to me. I can see why a group of small fighters would take on a bigger fish but I can't see why game logic is served by making every ship of every class essentially balance for combat. To me, that is not interesting. Medium ship combat and large ship combat should be things in their own right; instead they're owned by a Herbert in a single viper.
IMO, that would be perfectly OK - big ships should be slow but pack firepower.
For big ships - huge fixed/gimballed guns to shoot straight forward (for instance, deal massive damage to other big ships or even area damage to a swarm of small ones). For small ships fixed & gimballed weapons are OK even now.
And that's why I'm 100% for removing SCBs from this game entirely - smaller ships should DIE if they stay under the fire of bigger ships long enough. The strengths of small ships are speed and agility, so th best thing they can do solo against a huge ship is stay on its six and minimize (not entirely neglect!) received damage. If it's not enough, then die, simple as that. Then again, currently you can fit 10 times more SCBs in a large ship than in a Viper, so good luck to him
Anyway, if SCBs are removed, the balance will be much better - it will only be possible for small ships (e.g. Vipers) to take down large ships (e.g. Python/Conda) one on one ONLY if they have a huge alpha damage output, like 4 missile pods or something similar. And still this should require skill and luck, even with high alpha.
You'll can always FSD away - your mass is superior, so you will mass-lock smaller ships, not the other way around.
If they are controlled by competent players, sure. I don't think he's arguing that it's 1v1 duel balanced, just that there is some give and the big ship isn't just SmallerShip+10 where everything is strictly better. The tradeoff for more firepower and armour should be worth it, but they should still be a trade-off.
Also, this doesn't take into account how the other large ships are, and how they perform in comparison with their strengths.
I've been reading this thread since it started 9 pages ago, and I told myself that I wasn't even going to get involved with the back and forth in-fighting. But here I am anyway...
Honestly, I just find the entire thread sad. Instead of appreciating the game we have, and enjoying what Frontier has built, you guys are here COMPLAINING about it. I could understand this kind of behavior from a game that has a much younger audience or demographic, but this is Elite. This is the revival of a once thought dead genre of games. If you're playing this game, chances are you're old enough to have played other, much older games in the genre where we didn't have the luxury of community forums or post-release balance patches. We should be jumping up and down in utter excitement that we got this game at all.
Frontier said right from the start that they were making the game THEY wanted to play. We're just along for the ride. It's not our place to decide what Elite, or any game for that matter, should be if we're not the ones behind the code. And honestly the whole "buff and nerf" fad doesn't even fit into the scope of the game. The original Elite, along with Wing Commander, Freespace, and other similar games were all SINGLE PLAYER games where balance didn't matter. The goal was to fly around and feel like a badass space pilot. And that's ALL.
Yes, E rose the stakes and let us fly with friends. But they told us up front we could do anything we wanted in a living universe. We should be DOING that instead of spending our free time arguing with each other over something that's really none of our concern. If you don't like how your ship feels, fly a different one. If you don't like the fact that you just lost millions of credits to another pilot in a cheaper ship, don't fly such an expensive ship. And if you got beaten badly... Practice.
There really isn't anything else to it. If you don't like the game, don't play it. But please. Act your age and stop the whining.
Honestly, I just find the entire thread sad. Instead of appreciating the game we have, and enjoying what Frontier has built, you guys are here COMPLAINING about it. I could understand this kind of behavior from a game that has a much younger audience or demographic, but this is Elite. This is the revival of a once thought dead genre of games. If you're playing this game, chances are you're old enough to have played other, much older games in the genre where we didn't have the luxury of community forums or post-release balance patches. We should be jumping up and down in utter excitement that we got this game at all.
Frontier said right from the start that they were making the game THEY wanted to play. We're just along for the ride. It's not our place to decide what Elite, or any game for that matter, should be if we're not the ones behind the code. And honestly the whole "buff and nerf" fad doesn't even fit into the scope of the game. The original Elite, along with Wing Commander, Freespace, and other similar games were all SINGLE PLAYER games where balance didn't matter. The goal was to fly around and feel like a badass space pilot. And that's ALL.
Yes, E
rose the stakes and let us fly with friends. But they told us up front we could do anything we wanted in a living universe. We should be DOING that instead of spending our free time arguing with each other over something that's really none of our concern. If you don't like how your ship feels, fly a different one. If you don't like the fact that you just lost millions of credits to another pilot in a cheaper ship, don't fly such an expensive ship. And if you got beaten badly... Practice.There really isn't anything else to it. If you don't like the game, don't play it. But please. Act your age and stop the whining.
I would probably agree with most of this if all ships were the same price, and we only had to choose the one with the big guns and poor turn rate or the quick one with small guns. I would also say that all ships currently do have both strengths and weaknesses. In my opinion, the weaknesses of the Python include a low top speed, a small jump range, and large operating costs.
I'm not saying that a nerf should or should not happen. I'm just saying that a more expensive ship should be better than a cheaper one. So much better that it is impossible for the cheaper one to win? No, probably not. However, I also don't think that's where we are currently anyway. If you are a skilled Viper pilot, you can still do enough damage to the Python so that his hull repair costs are equivalent to your reinsurance, which would be around 1% hull damage to the Python.
I edited my post: don't forget about freaking chaffs !
Wait until wings are finally introduced and 100+ million cr Pythons are being swarmed by groups of Vipers/Cobras worth around a max total of 20 million cr...
Will it be balanced? Of course not. BUT pack hunters will, quite rightly, have a huge advantage against larger (and considerably more valuable) ships. I think the game will change pretty dramatically from that point and the expensive ships will be needing every advantage they can get to hold their own!
Will it be balanced? Of course not. BUT pack hunters will, quite rightly, have a huge advantage against larger (and considerably more valuable) ships. I think the game will change pretty dramatically from that point and the expensive ships will be needing every advantage they can get to hold their own!
I agree that it should be harder to take down large ships with small ones, than it is now. IMO, remove the shield cell banks from the game, and you'll get exactly that - a Viper, even if it stays on a Python's six, can't survive the rear turret fire for long. The only possible way for a Viper without shield cells to kill a big ship with turrets is 4 missile pods or something with equally huge alpha damage
Correlation is not causation.
Game designers make balance changes because they believe they will improve the game, not because players whine about something.
Given that these are exactly the same game designers who made the game that you seem to enjoy, perhaps you could give them a little credit for knowing how to do their jobs, instead of assuming that they're weak willed morons who change anything that anyone complains about?
Cost arguments don't make sense when you consider the Anaconda has those in much greater number but has far more drawbacks. The drawbacks should be related to the ingame physics and rules, not just have the more expensive ship as an RPG level+100 ship that's strictly better than previous ships.
It should be better because extra firepower and armour, modules and so on are 'worth it', not because it is a strict upgrade.
Skill play should be trying to take advantage of the enemy drawbacks and your strengths, not fighting against a ship that's just plain better in every way.
And that's why I'm 100% for removing SCBs from this game entirely - smaller ships should DIE if they stay under the fire of bigger ships long enough. The strengths of small ships are speed and agility, so th best thing they can do solo against a huge ship is stay on its six and minimize (not entirely neglect!) received damage. If it's not enough, then die, simple as that. Then again, currently you can fit 10 times more SCBs in a large ship than in a Viper, so good luck to him
Anyway, if SCBs are removed, the balance will be much better - it will only be possible for small ships (e.g. Vipers) to take down large ships (e.g. Python/Conda) one on one ONLY if they have a huge alpha damage output, like 4 missile pods or something similar. And still this should require skill and luck, even with high alpha..
Well, yesterday night I didn't want that, but after a good night sleep I must admit: SCB must be removed. Or you must be restricted to have only 1 shot of SCB and only 1 module at a time.
Otherwise, this completely destroys the game.
Would a competent corvette take on a pocket battleship - that's a rubbish analogy but I can't think of a better one. I've veered off the point here. Even the skill argument doesn't work in my view because you haven't equality of opportunity. Without manoeuvrability the Python pilot, regardless of his skill, cannot keep the viper pilot away or bring his guns to bear so inevitably he will die (or try to run).
Then again, larger ships will also start getting escorts or fly in groups. No problem there, just more epic shooting
This^. I can see Pythons (or condies) as commanding ships in wings. Kinda like the role carriers play in the navy: they are massively expansive to build and operate, can exert influence over a pretty massive region but you don't send them out on their own. It needs support to prevent it from being destroyed by much, much cheaper weaponry. A lone python should be toast versus four Vipers, never mind the cost difference. However, a Python + some vipers is a very different story.
Gotta say most of the people here complaining about the python will complain about the anaconda if the competent combat pilots move to that instead, not everything in balance is as easy as it seems people move to the best equipment for their role if your poor and good at combat you fly a viper, if your rich and good at combat you fly a python. Mostly traders fly anacondas, do we have any convincing proof of how good they are in combat? I don't think so everyone just things oh condas are easy because the moron AI can't understand how to roll.
Ozrix
Banned
Yet here we are, one month after release, and FD is already bending down to the PvP crowd's tantrums.
Ahhh the whining brigade again.
The python is very fine as it is. I had one and it was the first time i had the impression of a well balanced ship.
Its though and it should rightfully be.
And it has several weaknesses
1. Insanely expensive (fully kitted for combat you'll in the 300million range)
2. short jump range
3. extreme running costs
In a god balanced game a Python or anaconda should never fear something smaller like an ASP - if i watch the above videos ill say the python rather needs an upgrade.
Only in packs the small fighters should stand a chance.
If an elite Cobra or Viper meets an low end Python then it should still take some serious effort to nail it but not a few seconds.
Whats the reason to have insanely expensive ships if everyone and his dog can kill you in second.
The Ships are meant to fit a certain role which can be optimized/adjusted by outfitting and thats fine.
I sold the Python and got me a T9 for trading because thats the Ship to get if you're serious about trading.
It flies like a brick and its slow but thats ok as its believable.
And as its power generator/Shield generator is bigger than a Cobra itself i do not fear a collision with anything below an anaconda.
But i cannot escape any interdiction.
I cannot get any attacker in sight (thats why i have no offensive weapons)
Cannot dock anywhere but big star ports.
For exploration ill need to get an ASP an tune it to be an explorer as it fits this role the best. But now i dont expect it to eat condas and Pythons for breakfast.
Id say ignore the Whiners (especially those who never had one of the bigger ships) and don't water down the intended role of the different ships.
Rather pay close attention to not eliminate the reason to aim for those.
To the whiners - No You should never ever be able to take solo on a well kitted and flown Python/Conda!
The python is very fine as it is. I had one and it was the first time i had the impression of a well balanced ship.
Its though and it should rightfully be.
And it has several weaknesses
1. Insanely expensive (fully kitted for combat you'll in the 300million range)
2. short jump range
3. extreme running costs
In a god balanced game a Python or anaconda should never fear something smaller like an ASP - if i watch the above videos ill say the python rather needs an upgrade.
Only in packs the small fighters should stand a chance.
If an elite Cobra or Viper meets an low end Python then it should still take some serious effort to nail it but not a few seconds.
Whats the reason to have insanely expensive ships if everyone and his dog can kill you in second.
The Ships are meant to fit a certain role which can be optimized/adjusted by outfitting and thats fine.
I sold the Python and got me a T9 for trading because thats the Ship to get if you're serious about trading.
It flies like a brick and its slow but thats ok as its believable.
And as its power generator/Shield generator is bigger than a Cobra itself i do not fear a collision with anything below an anaconda.
But i cannot escape any interdiction.
I cannot get any attacker in sight (thats why i have no offensive weapons)
Cannot dock anywhere but big star ports.
For exploration ill need to get an ASP an tune it to be an explorer as it fits this role the best. But now i dont expect it to eat condas and Pythons for breakfast.
Id say ignore the Whiners (especially those who never had one of the bigger ships) and don't water down the intended role of the different ships.
Rather pay close attention to not eliminate the reason to aim for those.
To the whiners - No You should never ever be able to take solo on a well kitted and flown Python/Conda!
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That's what the rear turrets are for. If they're too weak, buff them. But again, the main issue is the "insta-healing" SCBs - if those are removed, then the rear turrets of big ships will toast small game (Vipers and such) just fine.
I'm really not convinced its the PvP crowd, its people that want to be able to kill everything in a viper and can't handle that somebody who's as good as they are in a larger more expensive ship is probably going to beat them.
I can't help but feel they'd sing a different tune if we went and started a campaign to nerf the viper because the sidewinder can't kill it reliably, which I think is exactly the same situation.
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