Flight Controls - My Initial Impressions

[Vulteran]

I purchased this game from steam due to a recommendation from a few roleplaying gaming buddies. I'm kind of regretting that decision since you can't get refunds, but I only have myself to blame. I should probably warn you that the post is pretty negative, so if you don't feel like reading, the TL;DR is that I think the yaw rate is BAD.

I loaded into the tutorial and the flight controls immediately felt atrocious. I honestly felt offended someone would actually think the flight controls provided were at all a reasonably good idea.

The main issue I am talking about is the horrifically slow yaw rate. I felt like I was flying a washing machine due to the need to roll, not a spaceship. I went to the forums and reddit to see how I could improve the yaw speed, and found a bunch of posts about balancing reasons for nerfing yaw rate, including "Turreting Syndrome" and wanting to mimic atmospheric flight.

Firstly, if you want to mimic atmospheric flight, rolling causes the plane to turn, rolling in this game does not (Unless I missed a setting?).

Secondly, if you want to limit turreting (which could be argued not to be a problem anyways, I've never heard of anyone winning a fight by standing still, in any setting), you could just slow down yaw while stopped and improve it as you speed up.

Rolling to aim is extremely non-intuitive to me, and I'm really not interested in playing the game when I struggle to aim at my targets. Sure, I could probably get used to it, or you know, Frontier could enable flight controls that don't require me to adjust to non-intuitive controls that I will just need to re-adjust out of as soon as I play any other game.

I've done better space flight controls in my spare time than what I just experienced here (I'm a game programmer, and yes, this is a qualifying remark that you can feel free to pick apart and ridicule, I don't mind), and honestly, I don't want to play this game as it is. I was instantly turned off by the flight controls. I don't normally post about my negative experiences, so I'm finding it interesting that I'm reacting so strongly to how much I dislike the flight controls. After the tutorials I just wanted to turn the game off and never boot it up again, which is probably what's going to happen.

For the most part, this thread isn't really for the players. It's for the people at Frontier. If you want to appeal to a wider audience, you need better flight mechanics, because I can tell you right now I've already talked to my friends about how much I hate the controls, and I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who thinks this way.

 

[Starbuckz]

I've done better space flight controls in my spare time than what I just experienced here (I'm a game programmer, and yes, this is a qualifying remark that you can feel free to pick apart and ridicule, I don't mind)

That's my favourite part xD

What if I tell you, it's intended to be like that.

 

[Stigbob]

I purchased this game from steam due to a recommendation from a few roleplaying gaming buddies. I'm kind of regretting that decision since you can't get refunds, but I only have myself to blame. I should probably warn you that the post is pretty negative, so if you don't feel like reading, the TL;DR is that I think the yaw rate is BAD.

You should research your own purchases. The yaw rate is how Elite controls have always worked, you would have known this had you researched it.

I loaded into the tutorial and the flight controls immediately felt atrocious. I honestly felt offended someone would actually think the flight controls provided were at all a reasonably good idea.

The tutorial ships have low rated thrusters. The point of the tutorial is to teach you the flight model.

The main issue I am talking about is the horrifically slow yaw rate. I felt like I was flying a washing machine due to the need to roll, not a spaceship. I went to the forums and reddit to see how I could improve the yaw speed, and found a bunch of posts about balancing reasons for nerfing yaw rate, including "Turreting Syndrome" and wanting to mimic atmospheric flight.

Elite's always done it this way (research) as do all atmospheric flight sims.

Firstly, if you want to mimic atmospheric flight, rolling causes the plane to turn, rolling in this game does not (Unless I missed a setting?).

Your pitch rate is much faster than yaw, the most efficient way to turn is to roll then pull up/down to achieve a turn. If you play beyond initial impressions you'll get used to it.

Secondly, if you want to limit turreting (which could be argued not to be a problem anyways, I've never heard of anyone winning a fight by standing still, in any setting), you could just slow down yaw while stopped and improve it as you speed up.

480 bc Battle of Thermopylae the spartan tactic was to stand still at a choke point in the pass. They died but not until after inflicting massively disproportionate damage to a numericaly superior force.

 

[Top Cat]

I purchased this game from steam due to a recommendation from a few roleplaying gaming buddies. I'm kind of regretting that decision since you can't get refunds, but I only have myself to blame. I should probably warn you that the post is pretty negative, so if you don't feel like reading, the TL;DR is that I think the yaw rate is BAD.

I loaded into the tutorial and the flight controls immediately felt atrocious. I honestly felt offended someone would actually think the flight controls provided were at all a reasonably good idea.

The main issue I am talking about is the horrifically slow yaw rate. I felt like I was flying a washing machine due to the need to roll, not a spaceship. I went to the forums and reddit to see how I could improve the yaw speed, and found a bunch of posts about balancing reasons for nerfing yaw rate, including "Turreting Syndrome" and wanting to mimic atmospheric flight.

Firstly, if you want to mimic atmospheric flight, rolling causes the plane to turn, rolling in this game does not (Unless I missed a setting?).

Secondly, if you want to limit turreting (which could be argued not to be a problem anyways, I've never heard of anyone winning a fight by standing still, in any setting), you could just slow down yaw while stopped and improve it as you speed up.

Rolling to aim is extremely non-intuitive to me, and I'm really not interested in playing the game when I struggle to aim at my targets. Sure, I could probably get used to it, or you know, Frontier could enable flight controls that don't require my mind to adjust to.

I've done better space flight controls in my spare time than what I just experienced here (I'm a game programmer, and yes, this is a qualifying remark that you can feel free to pick apart and ridicule, I don't mind), and honestly, I don't want to play this game as it is. I was instantly turned off by the flight controls. I don't normally post about my negative experiences, so I'm finding it interesting that I'm reacting so strongly to how much I dislike the flight controls. After the tutorials I just wanted to turn the game off and never boot it up again, which is probably what's going to happen.

For the most part, this thread isn't really for the players. It's for the people at Frontier. If you want to appeal to a wider audience, you need better flight mechanics, because I can tell you right now I've already talked to my friends about how much I hate the controls, and I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who thinks this way.

TLR; buys game - flies in crappy, bog standard, un-upgraded starter ship - complains about flight model in entire game.

 

[Valethar]

You should probably email them direct and offer your services, since you clearly know coding and can do it better. Saying this isn't for the players, yet posting a whine thread in the equivalent of 'general discussion' rather than in the 'suggestions' forum pretty clearly puts the lie to the 'not for the players' comment.

Taking the advice of 'roleplaying game buddies' on a simulation (Elite is not an RPG) was probably not the best idea. If you are indeed a game coder (and the jury is still out on this one) then one would expect that you're experienced enough, and smart enough, to do your own research rather than relying on 'buddies' to determine if a game suits you or not.

I would be far more inclined to believe that you saw this at the top of the charts on Steam, blew your allowance, and when you found out it requires some modicum of skill and patience to play (as opposed to the iWin button) decided to post a faux-pro suggestion/whine thread to vent your frustration.

 

[Zplintz]

Roll and pitch. Yaw is for fine adjustment.

It isn't a difficult concept to get your head around and becomes completely instinctive before long.

 

[aRtFuL]

480 bc Battle of Thermopylae the spartan tactic was to stand still at a choke point in the pass. They died but not until after inflicting massively disproportionate damage to a numericaly superior force.

Actually just for the record they wouldn't even have lost if it wasn't because the Persian forces found a back pass

Also there is The Battle of Agincourt from the Hundred Years War, to add to your example.

 

[Yaffle]

All

Please discuss the poster's comments, not the poster him/herself.

Thanks.

 

[Toumal]

If OP were to design the flight model, then ships in ED would turret-fight just like in SC. Luckily he didn't, so they don't.

 

[Aegis I]

I play on Keyboard and mouse. And this being my first space sim game, I do agree that the slow rate of yaw and the need to roll for turns makes the game really counter intuitive for me.

It took me 2 days fiddling around with the optimum settings and finding the controls that suit me best, but with practice, I got used to it. Now, flying feels natural and I've countered the counter intuitive controls.

 

[sbdags]

Roll and Pitch. Roll and Pitch. Roll and Pitch. Got it?

If you ever played the original Elite you'll know where the control comes from.

Think aeroplanes in space and understand what yaw is for and you'll get it.

 

[akr]

The Sidewinder is a good little runner but is not the nippiest of ships. Nevertheless, the (extremely) slow rate of yaw in the thrusters is a deliberate design choice that will not change: it's a basic part of the Elite flight model—which likely predates, and is different to, any other flight model you've ever flown. This is to allow for "space dogfighting"—the alternative, with high yaw, is "space turreting". Earlier iterations of Elite simply had no yaw at all!

Give it a chance. We pretty much all love it. You might just hate it. If it doesn't grow on you—and it may well once it "clicks" for you, try rolling until your target is above or below then pitching—then I guess just try another game with a flight model you prefer. There's plenty of others, but we're sticking true to our roots.

 

[Rubbernuke]

The thing is, Elite has a different control setup to most other space games. X Wing, Tie Fighter, Freespace etc all had yaw like you were probably expecting whilst Elite does not.

Like others have said, stop fighting the controls and give it a chance. I found it difficult too, and I thought I would never adapt- but after some practice it clicked and now it seems natural and easy.

 

[Aewarin Jameson]

We all have our preferences.

The developers wanted to make a game that had interesting combat. In their view a turret-model (full yaw) created uninteresting combat. You said that no one would sit and just turn but that's not what would happen - you would be moving through space and meet an enemy, turn off flight assist (so you continue in the same direction - Newton at his best ) and turret around .. this would create a jousting effect as you fly by each other, turn and fly back, and it means that you simply point and shoot. Not very exciting.

Instead they went with an enhanced version of the Elite (84) model - in that version you had no yaw and could only pitch / roll. By adding a little bit of yaw to help with aligning objects at a distance, when up close you had to pitch and roll to get them into your target. They also made it so that if your speed was zero your turn rate was terrible, but if you kept your speed in the blue area (as indicated on the HUD) your turn rate was at its best. This had the effect of creating combat akin to "planes in space".

For some this was a disaster, but for the Devs and the rest of us it creates exciting combat as you have to give chase to shoot your enemy.

YMMV.

 

[peter101cycle]

Sorry, flight model for Elite D is fine. You just don't like it yourself which is a shame.

I would advise to give it some time......

 

[Vulteran]

Well, I was not expecting this many posts. I don't really feel like addressing the bile that got thrown at me, it was pretty much expected, though if you want to look at the game, these are some early screenshots from experimenting with flight controls:

http://imgur.com/a/37St1

Project name Spacer, because if nothing else the name had to be super creative and unique (That was sarcasm). I know C, C++, C#, and Python. Dabbled in x86 Assembly and Java. I mostly have done graphics engine work, and tools work in the industry using Qt and WPF (for the tools).

I don't know about these developers, but I frequent the general discussion more than any other section of the forums. usually the community leader reads the suggestions and compiles a report on the suggestions for the design team.

Also, I figured it didn't need to be stated, but attempting to adjust the controls was the first thing I tried.

If the tutorial uses the worst possible space ship to teach the players, I would recommend Frontier not do that. It's not very representative of the game and is a big turn off to be forced to use the clunkiest ship in the game when learning the game.

Anyways, it does sound like another space sim would be a better fit for something to try out. I'm not super upset about the money, like I said, It's my own fault.

I would appreciate it if you guys stopped attacking my character and calling me a whiny schoolboy. It doesn't reflect well on the quality of a community.

 

[soma]

OP: Yes, the flight model needs some getting used to, especially if you are new to this sort of game. However once you get the hang of it, maneuvering becomes quite natural and the controls make the combat feel intense and awesome.

The controls are highly configurable. My suggestion would be to borrow a joystick or gamepad and continue to practice your flying for a few hours; you will get used to the flight model in no time.

If you like space games, I can only advise you not to dismiss the game because of some initial problems. Yes you need to put in some work, but ED is a great experience and it would be a shame if you missed out on it.

 

[Ian Skippy]

ED has, for me, the best flight model of any space action/sim game I've played. By far. And the poor yaw-rate is a big reason for that. And all, or nearly all, reviews expressed the same opinion. You are entitled to your opinion, but I think a great many people are quite satisfied playing ED rather than your 'spare-time flight controls'.

Sure, I could probably get used to it, or you know, Frontier could enable flight controls that don't require my mind to adjust to.

Just my humble opinion, but I think that is probably the worst possible attitude to have when playing ED. If 'adjusting your mind' is not your cup of tea, I am honestly doubtful if you'd ever enjoy ED. No matter what the yaw-rate is.

 

[Morbad]

While I think the flight dynamics of Elite: Dangerous make too many compromises for the sake of 'gameplay', I still find the flight model to be one of the best I've ever encountered in this broad genre of games.

or you know, Frontier could enable flight controls that don't require my mind to adjust to.

This is the most singularly absurd statement I have read in a very long time.

Why should Frontier design ED's entire flight model around your specific personal preferences? How could they even know what these specific preferences are?

because I can tell you right now I've already talked to my friends about how much I hate the controls, and I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who thinks this way.

I'd wager you are the minority and that no matter what the fight controls were, some significant minority would still hate them.

If the tutorial uses the worst possible space ship to teach the players, I would recommend Frontier not do that. It's not very representative of the game and is a big turn off to be forced to use the clunkiest ship in the game when learning the game.

Everyone starts in a Sidewinder and the Sidewinder is no where near the clunkiest ship in the game.

 

[Ydiss]

Ultra quick yaw space games are a massive turn off for me.

The flight model in Ed is the best space flight model I've played. Dogfights are the best I've experienced. And using all your controls to turn faster and keep your target in view is a skill, that requires different methods depending on your ship, the opponent's ship and what both of you are doing in a moment.

My nine year old tried the tutorials the other night, for the first time. She was controlling the sidewinder well enough after 15 minutes. She understood how pitch and roll was faster and even started using up and down thrusters to augment her direction to avoid asteroids.

With mouse and keyboard.

If a nine year old child can do it, you can.

It's heavy, it's meaty and it feels perfect. I'd hate it if ED has flighty, lightweight ships that spun on a penny by holding down one key.