Food for Thought : Possible Solution to Combat Logging & Stacking of Missions?

[Robert Maynard]

No but it sure could save some traders lives when a pirate doesn't have to be so careful about a player logging off.

While trader destructions might, possibly, be reduced if such a penalty were to be introduced - pirates may gain the luxury of time to negotiate with their target - at the same time gankers would be able to punish the targeted player either way - insurance screen or locked to Solo for a while.

 

[Comrade Error]

While trader destructions might, possibly, be reduced if such a penalty were to be introduced - pirates may gain the luxury of time to negotiate with their target - at the same time gankers would be able to punish the targeted player either way - insurance screen or locked to Solo for a while.

Then there is always that hyperspace window just waiting to be used for those who do not want to be toast to a ganker. Hell, it might even save some of their lives aswell, you know use smarts and skill to outsmart a ganker or whatever it may be.

Hell if the timer was increased I can see it much more good than bad. Which one would be worse, a Sidewinder or whatever getting ganker losing not a lot of in-game time compared to people in bigger ships or a T9 getting killed where it could be avoided possibly getting sent back into a Sidewinder? And then gankers themselfs couldn't use it either.

Almost every death by a player is avoidable in this game. People gotta learn that first of all and then secondly figure out how to do it themselfs. I've had a friend avoid a ganker himself in a T9 which I barely thought was possible but there you go. Even an encounter with a ganker you can learn something from but instead people gotta whine about it, maybe there should be a killcam on the rebuy screen to see ''What did I do wrong?'' or ''What could I have done to avoid dying?''

The only situation where the logout timer is to YOUR advantage is when you take advantage of a pirates patience, that's just about it.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Then there is always that hyperspace window just waiting to be used for those who do not want to be toast to a ganker. Hell, it might even save some of their lives aswell, you know use smarts and skill to outsmart a ganker or whatever it may be.

Hell if the timer was increased I can see it much more good than bad. Which one would be worse, a Sidewinder or whatever getting ganker losing not a lot of in-game time compared to people in bigger ships or a T9 getting killed where it could be avoided possibly getting sent back into a Sidewinder? And then gankers themselfs couldn't use it either.

Almost every death by a player is avoidable in this game. People gotta learn that first of all and then secondly figure out how to do it themselfs. I've had a friend avoid a ganker himself in a T9 which I barely thought was possible but there you go. Even an encounter with a ganker you can learn something from but instead people gotta whine about it, maybe there should be a killcam on the rebuy screen to see ''What did I do wrong?'' or ''What could I have done to avoid dying?''

The only situation where the logout timer is to YOUR advantage is when you take advantage of a pirates patience, that's just about it.

You are absolutely correct to suggest that every player should be familiar with the high-wake escape procedure - however there are sufficient complaints about being destroyed to suggest that there are a significant number of players who either do not know the procedure or cannot manage to use it to successfully escape destruction. So while destruction can be, to some extent, avoided by escape it seems to be a bit of a stretch to suggest that "almost every death by a player is avoidable in this game".

Frontier implemented the 15-second delay on exit when the ship is in "danger" - they must have their reasons why it is both possible to exit the game when in danger and also for the length of the delay. Increasing the delay would, presumably, be a single value change - not a vast programming effort - therefore the fact that it has not been increased in all the time that complaints have been made about its brevity would suggest that Frontier are trying, in some way, to walk the line between the desires of the attacking player and the desires of the targeted player.

 

[Comrade Error]

You are absolutely correct to suggest that every player should be familiar with the high-wake escape procedure - however there are sufficient complaints about being destroyed to suggest that there are a significant number of players who either do not know the procedure or cannot manage to use it to successfully escape destruction. So while destruction can be, to some extent, avoided by escape it seems to be a bit of a stretch to suggest that "almost every death by a player is avoidable in this game".

Frontier implemented the 15-second delay on exit when the ship is in "danger" - they must have their reasons why it is both possible to exit the game when in danger and also for the length of the delay. Increasing the delay would, presumably, be a single value change - not a vast programming effort - therefore the fact that it has not been increased in all the time that complaints have been made about its brevity would suggest that Frontier are trying, in some way, to walk the line between the desires of the attacking player and the desires of the targeted player.

I wouldn't say that the every so often thread about some gankers or whatever killing them is sufficient complaints. But yea if they do not know how to use hi-waking that's part of the game to learn ain't it? Of course if you are flying in an unshielded Type-X to maximise profits you are probably not going to get away from it alive either, but that's also the outfitting choice.

If they have their reasons I would sure like to hear them but of course I won't because piracy has been mentioned in this thread so for some reason they will threat it like the plague. Probably the same way they threat pirates complaints about the 15 second timer because I cannot figure out another decent explanation for why they wouldn't do it apart from them not caring. Can you? Hasn't Frontier already shown that they need extreme persuasion from the community (especialy the PvP community) before they will do something about an issue? This could probably be what is happening here, not enough persuasion. I might be wrong about that though as it seems most of the stuff that did effect and somewhat help piracy happaned before Elite came to XB1.

 

[Arklar]

... besides instancing issues, which I don't see being fixed anytime soon, combat logging is the #2 problem for PvPers.

Actually that's not an accurate statement. Consentual PvP has absolutely no combat logging problem, because either the battle finishes before anyone loses more than a moderate repair bill, or the CMDRs are rich enough that it doesn't matter anyway. The only sort of PvP that combat logging affects is non-consentual PvP, where someone's trying to impose their play style on someone else and which frankly needs all the discouragement it can get. All combat logging (in any form) does is reduce the penalty for losing in non-consentual PvP down to the levels of consentual PvP. It's just players taking action to rebalance an unbalanced aspect of the game. You can't fix this by punishing players, you can only fix this by fixing the part of the game that's broken.

The "15 minute" timer during combat is less of a loss than losing several millions of credits/merits, etc. That is kind of the point though, you choose which you would rather risk and suffer the consequences.

Do you not think it would be better to actually reduce the number of people choosing to exit during combat though? I understand that you don't like people exiting the game when you're about to blow them up, but your suggestion won't help you with that and will just hurt others. It doesn't qualify as a solution.

 

[Mighty Dangerous]

I can't believe what I read. How can anyone defend combat logging?
Atm it's the same keystrokes to combat log or high wake and same timer yet combat logging is a must have game mechanic?

Already Frontier see a problem.
When the dev's have to make streams and videos on how to play the game one year after release then you know there is a massive problem in the player base.

 

[Siobhan]

How can you defend newbie killing, since that is 100 times worse?

 

[Comrade Error]

How can you defend newbie killing, since that is 100 times worse?

Who here is defending nooby killing?

 

[NeilF]

In my humble opinion if you choose to log out with aggression from another player in open mode, you should be banned at least a week from open. Clearly you don't want to play in open with another human beings, and in this way the game will help you to choose the mode you really like.

Tricky... What happens if your PC simply shuts down? eg: Powercut? Or an internet hiccup?


And more importantly, while the game still isn't enforcing a Crime a Punishment system/mechanic anywhere near at an adequate level, I'm actually for people "pulling the plug"...

For example, where you get Wings of griefers at a (CG) station doing nothing more destroying CMDRs (traders) flying towards/out of the station! Not for one second should these individuals be rewarded with the "grief" they're after due to the game's lack of mechanics. eg: Ship after ship being attacked & destroyed just kiolmeters from a station by Wanted individuals, and the station does? Nothing! The local forces do? Nothing! And said individuals then even fly into the station to restock ready for more of the same.

So, while the game mechanics allow rediculous antics (griefing) like this to happen, I for one don't like the idea of the game helping them... I see the importance of players having a way out from mindless griefing (so as not to reward them for it) as more important than, for example, my risk of losing a "victim" while Pirating.


Once the game has started addressing this sort of stuff though, and griefing isn't ignored by the game, then:-
1) If you're doing a controlled exit from the game (with a 15 second countdown) - Show this countdown to all players in your instance.
2) Maybe extend the controlled countdown from 15 to 20-30 seconds?
3) If you are in a combat situation (ie: exiting would result in a 15 second countdown) and the game does an uncontrolled exit, on the next startup of the game, warn the player. If this happens regularly (quantity/time frame to be determined) restrict access to OPEN for increasing periods of time.

Ultimately the game should promote (offer) consensual PvP, and deter (mindless?) unwanted CMDR destruction by another CMDR. At the moment it's doing neither of these!

 

[Comrade Error]

Tricky... What happens if your PC simply shuts down? eg: Powercut? Or an internet hiccup?


And more importantly, while the game still isn't enforcing a Crime a Punishment system/mechanic anywhere near at an adequate level, I'm actually for people "pulling the plug"...

For example, where you get Wings of griefers at a (CG) station doing nothing more destroying CMDRs (traders) flying towards/out of the station! Not for one second should these individuals be rewarded with the "grief" they're after due to the game's lack of mechanics. eg: Ship after ship being attacked & destroyed just kiolmeters from a station by Wanted individuals, and the station does? Nothing! The local forces do? Nothing! And said individuals then even fly into the station to restock ready for more of the same.

So, while the game mechanics allow rediculous antics (griefing) like this to happen, I for one don't like the idea of the game helping them... I see the importance of players having a way out from mindless griefing (so as not to reward them for it) as more important than, for example, my risk of losing a "victim" while Pirating.


Once the game has started addressing this sort of stuff though, and griefing isn't ignored by the game, then:-
1) If you're doing a controlled exit from the game (with a 15 second countdown) - Show this countdown to all players in your instance.
2) Maybe extend the controlled countdown from 15 to 20-30 seconds?
3) If you are in a combat situation (ie: exiting would result in a 15 second countdown) and the game does an uncontrolled exit, on the next startup of the game, warn the player. If this happens regularly (quantity/time frame to be determined) restrict access to OPEN for increasing periods of time.

Ey, that system as far as I've been told is an anarchy system. Which even if other systems need a crime punishment mechanic then it shouldn't effect that particular system.

Also, I'm in favor of ganking until combat logging is fixed.

 

[Siobhan]

Who here is defending nooby killing?

Well, it's the killers who decide logging so much

You know, I've been playing Elite since '84, and never in all that time has my game been lessened or affected in any way by so called "combat logging". On the other hand I've had plenty of friends give up on the game due to non consensual pvp.

If the thing killing enjoyment is to be removed, then open pvp should be the first target.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Also, I'm in favor of ganking until combat logging is fixed.

Given the networking model of the game, it is unlikely that there is a fix that would stop players combat logging in front of other players. While there may be consequences for the players who do so the simple fact that the consequences would be retrospectively applied would not necessarily stop the behaviour in the first place.

 

[NeilF]

Ey, that system as far as I've been told is an anarchy system. Which even if other systems need a crime punishment mechanic then it shouldn't effect that particular system.

Also, I'm in favor of ganking until combat logging is fixed.

Disagree on both accounts I'm afraid.

Are you suggesting a station would happily sit by watching ship after ship being attacked and destroyed just kilometers away? Do you honestly think this makes any sense in the game world, and/or creates a better game play experience? Honestly?

As for your final comment... I'm in favour of combat logging until ganking is fixed in these sorts of scenarios. ie: I see no benefit in feeding these idiotic individuals who in reality are just exploiting poor mechanics and are doing this not to increase their balance, not to increase their rank, infact not to increase any standing within the game, but are doing it solely because they enjoy causing annoyance and aguish to others. That doesn't deserve rewarding. If they can instead be frustrated over and over... all the better IMHO.


And this isn't even discussing how damaging to OPEN such behaviour is ultimately. If Combat Logging was "addressed" and people were then "trapped" in OPEN with gankers/griefers still able to go about these same inane antics, I'd suggest many people would say goodbye to OPEN. Crime and Punishment needs to be addressed first... Then combat logging can be looked at.

 

[Comrade Error]

Well, it's the killers who decide logging so much

You know, I've been playing Elite since '84, and never in all that time has my game been lessened or affected in any way by so called "combat logging". On the other hand I've had plenty of friends give up on the game due to non consensual pvp.

If the thing killing enjoyment is to be removed, then open pvp should be the first target.

No it's traders who decided to log so much.

Yea you don't say? Back then logging would make you restart from your last save. It would be dumb to do it and if you did it then your game has been affected by combat logging and combat logging is affecting me aswell. Tell me do your friends also give up on any online PvP game when they get killed by another person?

Who ever said we should remove what is killing enjoyment? And even then I'm sure plenty of solo traders would agree that the NPC pirates and such constantly interdicting these poor traders that they are pretty bad aswell. In-fact since I've been told so many times that open is the least favorite option and that the vast majority of people play in public or solo then even if a small percentage of people are thinking of NPCs to be annoying and killing their enjoyment then they would be the majority surely. Pacifist mode for all!

 

[Mighty Dangerous]

@Siobhan

Where did I promote newb killing?

I promote high wake, you promote combat logging.

Who should a noob listen to, you or me?
Which one of us can make a better player, you or me?
What can you teach another player? Open is for jerks and noob bashing so just combat log?

It is not me who has the interest of player and the game Elite?
It is not me who can teach another player to escape, from player or npc?
You can't teach that, so you can't help this game or it's players.
I can take a player and turn him elitist, it might not be pretty but he will sing my praises after and go on to become a better player than me.
You can't do that. I'm an Elitist jerk and I don't take your nonsense.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Who ever said we should remove what is killing enjoyment?

.... all the posts complaining about combat logging, escape by high-waking, etc... The same posts that tend to avoid the uncomfortable truth regarding the lack of consequences for the illegal destruction of players.

 

[Comrade Error]

Given the networking model of the game, it is unlikely that there is a fix that would stop players combat logging in front of other players. While there may be consequences for the players who do so the simple fact that the consequences would be retrospectively applied would not necessarily stop the behaviour in the first place.

My point was that he shouldn't be blaming gankers and such for being the one and only issue. Both parties have had plenty of a hand at both starting griefing and starting combat logging and if both keep on going well it's going to keep on getting worse. A vicious cycle.

 

[Siobhan]

No it's traders who decided to log so much.

Decided? Or were driven to?

Yea you don't say? Back then logging would make you restart from your last save. It would be dumb to do it and if you did it then your game has been affected by combat logging and combat logging is affecting me aswell. Tell me do your friends also give up on any online PvP game when they get killed by another person?

Resetting to my last save affects nobody but myself. And giving up? Not in a PVP game, but in a hybrid game, PVE and PVP together? Where non consensual PK goes unpunished, then generally yes. In my time I've seen games go under because of it too.

Tell me then, how would a person combat logging negatively affect the game for you?

 

[Comrade Error]

.... all the posts complaining about combat logging, escape by high-waking, etc... The same posts that tend to avoid the uncomfortable truth regarding the lack of consequences for the illegal destruction of players.

Well I ain't saying that what I say should be taken as law by Frontier (altough please do..) I do voice my complaints that the timer is only so long but I haven't said it's an exploit or that it should be removed because I say so. Frontiers game and they say it's legal, ain't mean I gonna like it. I'm sure it's the same with most others here. So while yes I'm complaining about a thing that's somewhat killing my enjoyment at best it will be taken as a suggestion and it's ment to be that, more or less.

That's a bit thin, maybe I should've said ''There is one mode where PvP already is removed, it's called solo'' or something like that.

 

[Krieger]

My point was that he shouldn't be blaming gankers and such for being the one and only issue. Both parties have had plenty of a hand at both starting griefing and starting combat logging and if both keep on going well it's going to keep on getting worse. A vicious cycle.

My point would be that if you have a complaint about the design of the game, you take your complaint to the designers (i.e. FDEV) and not retaliate by killing other players who can do nothing about the design problem.