FSS improvement thread

Meanwhile I'm actually a bit miffed by all those community expertise milling around.
I might be wrong but having stumbled upon quite a few of Your posts i am getting a feeling that You are rather fondly protecting FDev's decisions as if everything they did was indisputably best for the game. As if You strongly refused to admit that FD are in fact fallible(Human nature).
I respect the level of faith You have in the developers but i can't grasp why You would be miffed with mere suggestions as to make their product better.
After all it's the game not the devs You engage the most with.
 
I would indeed lose my faith if it was my impression that we, the community would need to help with the coding or basic game design.
With coding, sure. Truth is we don't know a single line of code of the game;
Game design on the other hand? I can't agree. Not wholeheartedly at least. There are aspects of the game where their respective communities can voice their opinions on subjects that if changed could enhance overall player experience.

I can't see why suggestions are so bad in Your eyes?
Surely there must be at least one thing You would like to see changed. And that would be a suggestion. And that would be perfectly fine.
Would it not?
 
With all due respect to your efforts, I'm no big fan of community proposals that reach into technical aspects of the game while ignoring unknown future plans that they are not willing to share with us. Meanwhile I'm actually a bit miffed by all those community expertise milling around.
Thanks for the comments, it’s a very good point. I’ve made the same point myself before about making presumptions that future plans won’t have any dependencies on things working the way they do now.

And it’s a good point with regard to this - while it might fix the issue for current POIs, what will the situation be for future POIs on landables which might be dependent on the Planet Gen system running to a sufficient point to generate them.

Let me have a think about how best to incorporate that consideration. Will definitely factor it in as a stated assumption that future plans aren’t dependent on the FSS showing numbers, and emphasise that that the assumptions could be wrong.

What I’d hasten to add is that I wouldn’t want to try and pressure FD into putting in place a solution that is going to cause problems. I’d be perfectly happy to get a response of ‘thanks for the suggestion, but unfortunately it’s not a viable solution due to consequences for future plans which we can’t discuss at this moment.’.

The assumption the other way would be that FD have considered the solution and decided it isn’t viable or a priority. Maybe that’s the case. I’m currently of the view that it’s probably better to say something rather than bank on that assumption being correct though.
 
Sorry, I think I've lost the point when I said

If this is true, then it could very well happen that they already were thinking in the same lines like your proposal and now are trapped in the quagmire: If they follow your idea it would look like it's not their own one anymore. See what I mean and why it's not always necessarily harmless to go into their future design decisions? In the end it could backfire in that it prevents something that otherwise would be very desirable - by all participants. But maybe I'm just thinking too much... just ignore me.

Perhaps if FDEV just presented the arguments for a modified exploration interface without attaching ownership to the reasons outside their own circles, fewer (not nobody) would think they somehow managed to influence FDEV into making changes. Since there are heaps of suggestions brought forward by the community, the 1000-monkeys-with-1000-typewriters analog stands that at least a few of them might have come up with things that parallel FDEVs thinking.

In short: We are looking at correlation vs causation here. The egos of some will expand if their ideas mimick whatever ends up in the game. Others might just be pleased it turned out alright. Conversely, those in the former group may then throw tanties if their other ideas don't make it, while the latter group hides their disappointment better.

:D S
 
If this is true, then it could very well happen that they already were thinking in the same lines like your proposal and now are trapped in the quagmire: If they follow your idea it would look like it's not their own one anymore. See what I mean and why it's not always necessarily harmless to go into their future design decisions? In the end it could backfire in that it prevents something that otherwise would be very desirable - by all participants. But maybe I'm just thinking too much... just ignore me.

Please very aware that very few people have the slightest concern about the source of an idea rather than the result of it implemented. In the sense that would apply to frontier, its not very professional.
 
With regard to the Geological POI scan times...

This is something I had drafted to post in here anyway, but yesterday's announcement makes it a bit more pertinent and presents far more of an opportunity than previously.


Although various of us have already posted a suggested solution already, would there be any objections to me posting another thread about it?

The main things I'd be aiming to get out of the thread is:

a. confirmation that the suggested solution has been heard and passed on appropriately internally

b. confirmation that is is either being considered or has been confirmed as non-valid (essentially so that we can stop repeating the same suggestion).

Although various of us have put forward a solution for the Geological POI scan time issue, there's not been any response that I'm aware of. However, I did see something in Reddit, where someone had a message from support which confirmed the nature of the issue to be as suspected (or at least as I had suspected, and posted.)

With the focus now on bug fixing, this seems like a great opportunity to try and get this fixed.

To do so the approach is to try and make it as easy as possible for FD to put in place the solution which we've already proposed. To enable this:

  • I've put together a general summary of the situation and a case for the solution
  • I'd like to ask people on the thread to have a read through, and give their input (see below)
  • I'll then post a final version to Will and Co, and Adam B-W on DD
That post will highlight the issue, propose the solution, present the case and ask for acknowledgement that it's been seen and passed on, and also ask for confirmation whether the solution is indeed viable or whether something has been missed in the assumptions which means it's non-viable and we can stop proposing it.


In terms of input, what would be useful in particular is taking a look at the assumptions, dis-benefits, rollout issues and rollout risks, and seeing if there's anything else which can be identified which would need to be considered.

@marx @Max Factor @Dutchman141 @picommander @Ozric I know you've all got an interest in this, so am tagging you all in specifically. Points from anyone else would be welcome too.

Thanks in advance for reading through and any input. (And apologies to the OP for the mild hi-jacking of this thread, but the thread's gone quiet anyway, and it's true to the topic of the thread, so hopefully it's not a problem.)



Context

Some of us have helped with bug/issue resolution in the past, for example personally, helping identify a potential source of the Trident SLF overheat issue.

Having looked at the Geological POI scan times issue quite a bit, it seems fairly evident what the cause is is.

Further, on reddit, someone shared a response they'd had from support indicating that the issue was being looked at and confirming at least where the cause is was as suspected.


The nature of the matter

The problem isn't a bug, it's inherent in the current design of the process - it's a bottleneck in the current process flow.

Changing the actual part of the process which results in the bottleneck is likely to be a major endeavour with knock on consequences.

So the solution is to change the process flow so that the bottleneck doesn't occur.


The bottleneck

Zooming in on a body invokes the planet generation system. The generation of Geological POIs requires the planet generation system to have progressed to a certain point, which takes a fair amount of time (and is GPU performance dependent).


Why fixing the bottleneck itself isn't an option

Because geological POIs are generated as part of the planet generation, which was revised in 3.0, decoupling it is probably non-viable, and if it was viable would likely change the Geological POIs on every planet across the entire game.


The partial workaround which anyone can currently use

Whether a body has vulcanism is confirmed almost instantly. Only bodies with vulcanism have geological POIs. A few bodies with vulcanism don't have geological POIs but these are very rare (estimate - 1 in 1,000). Therefore if a body has vulcanism it can be treated as having geological POIs, flown to, and the DSS used to reveal the POIs.


The core of the issue

The issue is not so much with the Geological POIs themselves, as if someone is specifically interested in them, the workaround tackles that fine.

The issue is that the scan time for Geological POIs prevents all other types of POI being shown until it's complete.

There are huge numbers of bodies with Geological POIs, and after a few, they're unlikely to each warrant travelling to and DSS scanning.

The result is that there is a massively decreased possibility of non-geological POIs being found on/around planets with vulcanism compared to planets without vulcanism. Also it means anyone looking for the non-Geological POIs faces a massively increased time when bodies with vulcanism are involved compared to then they aren't.


The proposed solution

Part A

The proposed solution is to:

1. have the FSS return only the presence of POIs, not the number

2. de-couple the generation of the geological POIs from the FSS

3. use whether a planet has vulcanism or not as the single determinant of whether geological POIs are present.

Specifically, this change (in pseudo-code):

As-Is:

On FSS_Zoom (call Planet_Generation_System:
(​
Return visuals;​
On Geological_Site_Location_Generation complete, Return number_of_Geological-POIs;​
)​
Determine numbers of other POIs​
)​
To-Be:

On FSS_Zoom (if planet.has_vulcanism set Geological_Signals_Detected = yes
call Planet_Generation_System:​
(​
Return visuals;​
)​
Determine presence of other POIs​
)​

Part B (Lower priority)

Add the results of whether POIs have been detected by the FSS to the detailed body information on the System Map.


Assumptions

1. That other POI types can be treated in the same way as the Geological ones, and their presence generated/determined without needing the planet generation system to get to the point needed to determine the number of Geological sites.



Solution development time, costs and resource needs

<Section added for completeness, can't be completed external to FD. Would estimate these are all low in the scale of things though.>


Dis-benefits of solution


NumberDescriptionLikely ImpactMitigationLikely impact with mitigationEstimated cost of mitigation
1A very small number of bodies which will be reported as having Geological signals will if DSS probed, not return any POIs. When encountered this may result in some annoyance, bug reports and complaints.Very low.Pre-emptive comms to playerbase to explain why this has may result, focussing on the much larger benefit provided by having this situaiton.Very very low.Very low*.


*Just a personal guess based purely on other experience.


Solution rollout issues

NumberTypeDescriptionMitigation/ActionEstimated Cost
1ChangeFor players there will be a change from the FSS showing numbers of POIs to just whether signals have been detected. Where players are unaware why this has been done, this will result in some confusion, and may result in some resistance and/or complaints.Comms to playerbase explaining why the change is being made and the benefits that players will get from it. (Including info related to mitigation of Dis-benefit 1)Very low.


Solution rollout risks

(Note, 1&2 are just what I would anticipate to be standard known risks for any update FD does. They're there for completeness. Any risks specific to this particular solution will be added.)

NumberDescriptionProbabilityImpactMitigation optionsMitigation Costs
1Solution doesn't work when pushed to live clientsShould be low (in principle)MediumTBCTBC
2Packaging and deployment results in issues with unrelated areasMediumHighly dependent on effected area(s). Could be very low. Could be very high.TBCTBC

That’s pretty epic. Another option is they could just remove the count tallies from the results. Given that human and thargoid results return instantly they could possibly go down that path rather than asking the planetary system to render itself just to yield an number.

All the devs must be working off formal design docs and uml diagrams and the like.. if you were responsible for the whole problem that probably the first thing you would be inclined to do.. oh the delay sucks what’s going on?
 
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