FSS vs. ADS – and Alternative or Additional Options for Compelling Gameplay

[Darkfyre99]

As well as discussing the topic at hand, of course, this thread is meant to help alleviate some of the off-topic discussions in other threads.

Feel free to share your relevant opinions, perspectives, and preferences here, though please try to avoid discussing the validity of those of others.

...

For me personally and in addition to what we currently have implemented in the game, I'd like being able to target worlds as "unresolved signal sources" or the like from the navigation panel in previously unexplored systems after the honk and before using the FSS to resolve them for more immersive first-person exploration gameplay. Ideally though, I think also having targetable "unresolved signal sources" (AKA "black bodies") show up on the system map for a bit more perspective and selective engagement would be great. I'd be fine with this needing a size one module upgrade for this added functionality, especially seeing as how I happen to have a few extra of them since the past couple of updates anyway.

Naturally some would prefer if the full functionality of the ADS were restored while others are happy with how the FSS and DSS work as they are (current bugs not withstanding) and don't want other alternative options implemented in the game as they think they might be detrimental for one reason or another.

Cheers.

Do you know what the #1 biggest improvement I'd like to see?

Being able to pull up the information about a targeted body in the cockpit, on one of my side panels.

I'm very much enjoying being able to discover a system simply by flying through it, passing close enough to its bodies for it to automatically resolve, but I'd prefer to pull up information about a planet in the cockpit, rather than entering the FSS or the damned-awful system map. I'm glad we've got the FSS, it's great at determining if I think a system is worth exploring (when it's working correctly), without giving me unwanted information, but I'd love to be able to explore a system from the cockpit entirely.

edit:

A close second is this:

I kind of like the FSS - but I would very much like it if you didn't need to drop your throttle to zero to use it. This would allow for proper multicrew functionality - one guy flys the ship, another is detecting planets/sources etc.

I'd even be willing to use Supercruise Assist if it meant I could use the FSS on the move.

 

[Stigbob]

So you accept that functionality was removed, you just don't care because it doesn't affect you. Okay.

Nope you just made that up.

 

[Darkfyre99]

Hey, question for all you fss is fun people: is there any way to tell from a raw spectrum if a body is orbiting another body or the local star?

Ive been trying this evening in good faith to do it, and im thinking its not possible. I think what there is to go by possibly is the height and width of the ticks, and whatever is in the white rectangle showing the arrows, but from what ive seen that only shows if it has rings or not?

You can do a good percentage of them via elimination of gas giants but thats not certain. Course you can do it by panning around but and looking at the numbers after you resolve them but if you go that far its defeated the purpose of trying to read the spectrum.

Oh wait, its all about credits right.. yeah if all you care about is specific bodies yes it does that damn.

You can determine binary+ worlds by looking at the chevrons around the targeting reticle. Binary+ will have multiple chevrons sets pointing at the same circle w/in a circle, bodies with moons will have a single chevron set pointing at the circle w/in a circle.

 

[Darkfyre99]

No, you didn't. So, tell me: in the FSS, how can you tell the orbital hierarchy of the system?
What you need to do now is to scan the whole system, and then you... call up the system map. "The FSS now hides such behind playing the mini-game, and in order to ascertain whether a system might be worth exploring, first you have to explore it in full."

Don't get me wrong though. I don't think that the ADS was good: it was a placeholder mechanic. However, neither is the FSS: it was (and still is) a rushed job, a low-effort solution to tick off some boxes for management. I'd rather Frontier gave the FSS the ADS treatment, and ripped it out of the game completely in favour of something new. Honestly, I think they can do better than either the FSS or the ADS.

You don't need to scan the whole system. You just need to pan through it once, or perhaps twice for particularly large systems. If you have the FSS tuned right, you can fairly easily determine whether a particular gravitational well is a single body, a binary+, or a body with moons. Combine that the distance in the lower left corner, and you've got your orbital heirarchies.

I'll grant you, it's a bit more involved than holding down a button for five seconds, but it's also a far cry from resolving everything in the system.

 

[CMDR Karrde Sun]

You can determine binary+ worlds by looking at the chevrons around the targeting reticle. Binary+ will have multiple chevrons sets pointing at the same circle w/in a circle, bodies with moons will have a single chevron set pointing at the circle w/in a circle.

Yes, but you have to panning then, which isn't the point. FSS lovers and frontier suggested that you should be able to make a decision to decide to proceed further from the energy pulse spectrum. I guess they were just thinking credits, and only the most credits. In the past, you would look at the system map to decide if the sights of flying there would be worth it or not. Its rough not to be able to distinguish between a moon and a standalone body, they have 3 cryptic clues for their use but they didn't bother.

Lol maybe that's the difference there, some people play the game for their save game statistics and some for different reasons. Frontier programmed the new feature exclusively for the former.

Also, they added a link to the zoomed in body view of the system map, its the next best thing for getting detailed info in the cockpit. Of course the back button takes you back to the full system map which is crap, you have to hit your keybind to get out of it gracefully.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

So you accept that functionality was removed, you just don't care because it doesn't affect you. Okay.

You guys still arguing with the 'not my problem means there is no problem' fellers?

Odd.

These fellers do not care a portion of explorers has lost their favourite past time. Trying to make them care about other player's gaming experience is less important than coming out of top in an internet discussion. In fact, they'll mock you for having lost interest in the game just to get a rise out of you. They will tell you that the way you (used to) play a game is the wrong, you should play like them, the way you don't like to play. They'll argue the ADS was only for cherry pickers which is bad, but the FSS is even better for cherry pickers which is good.

Frog 'em.

Frontier has made their decision. They're not going to reverse it. We're not getting old ADS functionality back. If exploration using the ADS was your thing, exploration is dead. Just give up and stop playing the game. I can understand the motivation of arguing to get it back, but considering it took Frontier 4-5 years to come up with improvements to exploration, think we're all honking for credits anyway "and look guys! We increased honk pay outs! Aren't you happy?" they're not going to suddenly re-implement ADS functionality.

Sucks, but there it is.

 

[baqar79]

Well they might; I admit it is frustrating arguing for the return of a feature that only a few used. I mean the FSS isn't bad, it's just slow for me if I'm looking for particular orbital characteristics; for example within the ADS screen I would quickly mouse over binary moons or planets, checking their orbital periods to see if some might be very close; or I might mouse over a gas giant with 3 rings to see if I might find some moons in there.

I came across a system with 91 bodies in it on my way back from the black recently so thought to time myself (9 of which were already identified automatically). It took me about 10 minutes to scan everything, but admittedly I'm a bit slow being my first real run with the FSS; unfortunately after all that there wasn't anything of interest to me in the system.

Following DarkFyre99's advice, I could probably cut down that time considerably, if I said "I'm after close orbiting binary moons on gas giants". Then I would just focus on the gas giant signal sources and examine the surrounding signal sources for double ring signal sources (more than one signal source present), zoom into them and identify them, and either check the Orrery or system map to see the specs on those moons. It still would be pretty slow though (relative to before where you can see the entire system map while moving and lining up the next system jump), and I don't necessarily want to put my name on anything if it turns out that a system didn't contain the characteristics I was looking for; I would rather leave that to another explorer that would come across this system seemingly untouched and with the feature(s) they were looking for be happy to claim the system for themselves.

I mean the FSS could be improved for me...for example a scale would help so that you could at least gauge the distance between two bodies, or as another possibility add more details than just the distance and temperature when the FSS is hovering over a body; add the mass and orbital period, and the other information that you would normally get with the ADS honk. Would also be great to at least see a visual representation of an object once you had identified it, at least then I could zoom in on gas giants, identify them, see that there are other signal sources wedged in between the rings, or if not (as in most cases, I've only found 2 systems with moons in-between rings in thousands of systems), move on.

On the other hand, there are some explorers that would look at the visuals on the ADS to determine whether a body was worth investigating or would make for some good astrophotography. If the ADS came back as a separate module it would still cost you a slot to fit, which in my case would mean either giving up cargo space or an HRP; in this way I don't think it unfair and it would allow those explorers that relied on it to happily continue doing what they did beforehand, albeit with one less optional slot.

 

[IamMe]

Old ADS was more immersive, no popup screen minigames, now it just feels arcadish!
They just needed to add probe launcher to DSS and it would be perfect, or at least made FSS part of the ship's UI.
I hope this is not final version of FSS!

 

[Skip Rockbounder]

As I probably explained earlier all the information is there its just displayed differently. You wanting it at a glance doesn't equate to it being missing.

...Yess stig, Handbag or pockets.
"it's here somewhere, let me just empty the entire contents of my bag on the floor and I'll find it... I know I can"

 

[CMDR Karrde Sun]

I don’t get how people can reason that the ads has to have a cost, when the fss is so powerful it’s completely nukes elite dangerous out of elite dangerous.

They couldn’t stop boasting about how much you don’t have to play the game any more and all the goods are yours by leaving the game and using the cookie clicker module.

Why must the ads have a penalty?

 

[Stigbob]

...Yess stig, Handbag or pockets.
"it's here somewhere, let me just empty the entire contents of my beg on the floor and I'll find it... I know I can"

The information is very clearly displayed in the spock-o-scope, you just need to approach it logically.

 

[Darkfyre99]

Yes, but you have to panning then, which isn't the point.

Yes and no. Yes, in the sense that if you want confirmation that a system contains binary+ gas giants, which is one of the parameters for an interesting system for me, you have to pan. And you definitely have to pan to find binary+ rocky and icy planets. But no, in the sense that once you get a few hundred systems under your belt, you start recognizing the signs of binary+ gas giants on the FSS wave spectrum analyser.

It isn't 100% guaranteed to catch everything, but these days my general exploration work flow is: honk, check to see if the wave spectrum is worth doing a pan in the gas giant band, and then jump out or stay depending upon the results of the pan. I want a system that is interesting to fly through, and the FSS allows me to determine if that's the case, without spoiling the entire system by providing unwanted information.

FSS lovers and frontier suggested that you should be able to make a decision to decide to proceed further from the energy pulse spectrum. I guess they were just thinking credits, and only the most credits. In the past, you would look at the system map to decide if the sights of flying there would be worth it or not. Its rough not to be able to distinguish between a moon and a standalone body, they have 3 cryptic clues for their use but they didn't bother.

That was always the problem with the old system for me. I prefer to discover a system by flying through it, and the FSS lets me do this. With the old ADS system, a system was discovered by holding down a button for a few seconds, which left me with the choice to grind for credits, "discovered by" tags, or minutia... none of which interested me. Which is why I never explored for long before the FSS. There was no sense of discovery, no "aha!" moment when you realize you're looking at something special, and no surprises.

That's why I like the FSS. It's a multi-tool that allows me to get just enough information about a system to determine if I want to explore it via parallax, without revealing the information I want to discover for myself. If I'm having trouble, I can go back into the FSS for additional hints, or for those outer icy bodies that don't particularly interest me.

That being said, I have no problem with Frontier adding something the similar to the ADS back into the game, as long as it's an optional module. The FSS is ill suited for a certain style of exploration, which Frontier admitted was the case when it was introduced. As long as I don't have to install anything similar to that soul-sucking monstrosity of a placeholder on any of my ships, I'm fine with it existing in the game. I just don't want spoilers ruining my exploration game play. It's bad enough that previously explored systems get spoiled in that way.

Lol maybe that's the difference there, some people play the game for their save game statistics and some for different reasons. Frontier programmed the new feature exclusively for the former.

Given that I explore systems primarily via parallax these days, I don't think that's the case. Frontier designed the FSS to provide multiple heirarchies of information, nothing more, nothing less. Each step requires you to make a decision on whether to get more information or not. You can use it sparingly, or you can play it as a mini-game. The important thing is that we get to choose how much information we get, or don't.

Also, they added a link to the zoomed in body view of the system map, its the next best thing for getting detailed info in the cockpit. Of course the back button takes you back to the full system map which is crap, you have to hit your keybind to get out of it gracefully.

I know. I'd still prefer to have that information in the cockpit, rather than visiting a separate screen. I'm already in visual range of the planet or moon, so I know what it looks like. I just want to know certain information about the world, to determine if its worth dropping probes on it or not.

 

[Skip Rockbounder]

I don’t get how people can reason that the ads has to have a cost, when the fss is so powerful it’s completely nukes elite dangerous out of elite dangerous.

They couldn’t stop boasting about how much you don’t have to play the game any more and all the goods are yours by leaving the game and using the cookie clicker module.

Why must the ads have a penalty?

The only reason those that favour the return of the ADS intimate that it could have a mass and cost and perhaps even high energy consumption is to try to put a balanced module back on the fittings list that might be accepted by the nay-sayers, personally I'd prefer it if modules were reasonable and the Ronco/K-Tel all singing all dancing scanner fit size 5 slots and wipe 20 gazillion terajoules* of power every time they were used.

* No, I don't know what they are or even if they have an expiry date... but they are probably a lot!

 

[CMDR Karrde Sun]

that might be accepted by the nay-sayers,

I see what you're saying, but completely invalid. I don't believe it is right to assert white knight pacification as a game mechanic.

By logic, the ads should be built in or class 1 and the fss should be a class 6 slot and weigh 120 tonnes comparing the list of functionality each of them provide. How is the god mode one without cost?

For combat players and usses i know but it doesn't make sense. I said during the beta if the fss was locked behind a 3 week duration guardian mission and had an outfitting cost id would have had an easier time accepting it. Its so OP!

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Old ADS was more immersive, no popup screen minigames, now it just feels arcadish!
They just needed to add probe launcher to DSS and it would be perfect, or at least made FSS part of the ship's UI.
I hope this is not final version of FSS!

So after using the old ADS what did you then do. Most likely use the pop-up equally unimersive system map.

But I do agree that the FSS would be better inside the UI, just like the system map and galaxy map would be. But I can see it having performance issues though which is probably why they are all separate screens. As to arcadey, well thats subjective. I don't see it like that, and I have no issues with mini-games. It's the only way to add new mechanics. The core mining is a mini-game, but at least it uses the main UI. I just see the full screens as a full surround VR overlay.

 

[Skip Rockbounder]

I see what you're saying, but completely invalid. I don't believe it is right to assert white knight pacification as a game mechanic.

By logic, the ads should be built in or class 1 and the fss should be a class 6 slot and weigh 120 tonnes comparing the list of functionality each of them provide. How is the god mode one without cost?

For combat players and usses i know but it doesn't make sense. I said during the beta if the fss was locked behind a 3 week duration guardian mission and had an outfitting cost id would have had an easier time accepting it. Its so OP!

Yeah, I know, though it started off as
We want the ADS back..
NO!
It could be optional
NO!
We would give up space for it
NO
It could cost us lots of money
NO
It could draw lots of power, be big and cost lots of money...
NO
I hate you...

 

[CMDR Karrde Sun]

It isn't 100% guaranteed to catch everything, but these days my general exploration work flow is: honk, check to see if the wave spectrum is worth doing a pan in the gas giant band, and then jump out or stay depending upon the results of the pan.

Yes, that's what im leaning towards as well. Im also gas giant centric and that seems to be by luck supported doing what you describe. It was just disappointing arriving with an effort to learn it that its by dumb luck and a non intended usage.. looking at that spectrum wasn't designed to be mastered in that way, it was for whether you want to stop for credits. If it was it could contain the information. They could have used the triangle display rectangle above the spectrum shown on tuning, or some function of the ticks.. but its not there as far as i've seen. Indicating the mass somehow would have done it.

There was no sense of discovery, no "aha!" moment when you realize you're looking at something special, and no surprises.

How is not the zoom on the gas giant the biggest spoiler? Im just getting over this. The flow of activity presents you with the body in the fss. Marking it in the system map didn't have such a profound effect, and you got this on approach instead. I know i have to get over it. But to me it was another thing robbed from the "when you get there" experience.

Apart from the spoiler i do like new balance though. Because you didn't spend all this time point at scanning each of the moons, its like a smörgåsbord of things you can do when you arrive without having any time consumed prior. I've completely dismissed the value of anything to do with mapping now so its just a bit of fun for something to do.

It's a multi-tool that allows me to get just enough information about a system to determine if I want to explore it via parallax.

Absolutely. The trick to not never exploring again is to minimise the time you're in there, and go in with an intention rather than seeking to be inspired by it. Its a mobile app game and focused on gameplay rewards not experience. Its just something else.

I also like the assistive fss model. Max Factor was condemning this idea but i really like pointing your ship via in ship play in the general direction and using the fss ad hoc to resolve stuff directly infront of you. The offensive panning is no longer done and small doses is achieved. Eg, flying to a station and once you're aligned using the fss to only resolve signal sources on the way there. Really neat like that.

As long as I don't have to install anything similar to that soul-sucking monstrosity

FSS

I know. I'd still prefer to have that information in the cockpit, rather than visiting a separate screen. I'm already in visual range of the planet or moon, so I know what it looks like. I just want to know certain information about the world, to determine if its worth dropping probes on it or not.

Its nice how its done via the nav panel though, the process lets you suspend disbelief about being taken out of the cockpit. I don't mind it anyway

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Frontier designed the FSS to provide multiple heirarchies of information, nothing more, nothing less. Each step requires you to make a decision on whether to get more information or not.

An important step to this process was removed for me.

The ADS system map gave me the information I needed to answer the question: "is this system worth investigating?". The EM spectrum doesn't give me this information. To get it, I need to use the FSS in order to determine I want to use the FSS. Note that "for me" means this is subjective to the way I play this game. It might be, and in your case is, different for each player.

Introducing the FSS while removing the ADS has removed an important decision right at the beginning of my exploration process.

My preferred hierarchy of information/decisions would be:
1. Enter the system, honk -> populate the system map. Determine from the system map whether this is a system worth investigating. If positive, proceed.
2. Enter the FSS, resolve the system, or notable bodies in the system. Determine whether there are planets worth investigating. If positive, proceed. (the FSS here would have meant it would have been a great addition to exploration, and I would have been cheering FD for it's introduction.)
3. Fly towards a planet and determine by eyeballing or lobbing some probes at it whether it's a planet worth landing on.

Now I have to do steps 1 & 2 as a package. There's no information except the # of bodies and the type of planets, which for my needs doesn't tell me much, to go on, so the only way is to enter the FSS and play around with that about every system. And then what could have been a great addition turns into a grindy mini game for me which I got fed up within 5KLY. Tried variations on using the FSS in different ways, with no luck.

 

[CMDR Karrde Sun]

My preferred hierarchy of information/decisions would be:
1. Enter the system, honk -> populate the system map. Determine from the system map whether this is a system worth investigating. If positive, proceed.
2. Enter the FSS, resolve the system, or notable bodies in the system. Determine whether there are planets worth investigating. If positive, proceed. (the FSS here would have meant it would have been a great addition to exploration, and I would have been cheering FD for it's introduction.)
3. Fly towards a planet and determine by eyeballing or lobbing some probes at it whether it's a planet worth landing on.

Amazingly, i dont think anyone has ever written it down like that before and it makes so much sense

Why couldnt it have turned out like that? So simple and everyone included.

 

[Morbad]

The ADS system map gave me the information I needed to answer the question: "is this system worth investigating?".

Yes, quick assessments of a system is much more time consuming now.

However, I don't feel this is entirely a bad thing. It always seemed a bit silly to me that I could get a complete picture of the positions and basic surface features of every body in a system with just a 'honk'. It was too easy, too basic.

That said, I'm not entirely happy with the FSS implementation either; too many arbitrary minigames.