FSS vs. ADS – and Alternative or Additional Options for Compelling Gameplay

[baqar79]

It's a multi-tool that allows me to get just enough information about a system to determine if I want to explore it via parallax, without revealing the information I want to discover for myself. If I'm having trouble, I can go back into the FSS for additional hints, or for those outer icy bodies that don't particularly interest me.

I'm not sure if I'm understanding this quite right, but it sounds like you use the FSS to decide whether to explore a system further or not and then manually locate system using an eyechrometer and ignore the rest of the FSS's functionality for the most part (no zoom-in identification). If this is the case, I think I can understand why you would hate the ADS...having all orbits and objects suddenly show up in a system after a honk would destroy the satisfaction of that exploration, where the FSS version will give some reasonable information without spoiling everything.

I guess though my problem with the current FSS is that it is more focused on the type of object in the system rather than the mechanics of the system. The ADS pretty much gave explorers both the object type and mechanics, but the FSS returns just returns the former and a much stripped down version of the latter, which is kind of rubbish for certain exploration types. I would certainly like to see much more of the mechanical information (not just distance and temperature) on bodies that the FSS is pointing at as well as having it integrated into the cockpit (having to slow down to use the FSS isn't fun)...but that would be catering towards my exploration method, and may not help other explorers at all.

Seems a good compromise would be to have the original 3.2 ADS module reinstated (no additional penalties like weight or power).

 

[Skip Rockbounder]

For my trip back to the bubble it's turned me into a the very thing I detested finding, a litterbug.
I now...
Enter-Scoop
Stop-Honk
Check for GG ELW WW, twock the good stuff
LEAVE

That ain't exploring, that's smash & grab.

 

[Morbad]

Seems a good compromise would be to have the original 3.2 ADS module reinstated (no additional penalties like weight or power).

That's not a compromise. The old ADS was broadly and objectively superior in many functions. To reintroduce it would displace the FSS except for level 2 scans and create a single optimal approach.

Maybe if the ADS had a range limit...

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Yes, quick assessments of a system is much more time consuming now.

However, I don't feel this is entirely a bad thing. It always seemed a bit silly to me that I could get a complete picture of the positions and basic surface features of every body in a system with just a 'honk'. It was too easy, too basic.

That said, I'm not entirely happy with the FSS implementation either; too many arbitrary minigames.

You're right, it's not an entirely universal bad thing. It depends on your playstyle and what you're looking to get out of it. Plus, if you could use the FSS in a more focused manner, it would mean less use of FSS, and using the FSS with a notion what you're looking for, instead of going through the motions of unraveling yet another system.

I don't think it's silly to get a visual representation of the system you're in in a very short notice, without knowing the basic surface features. Perhaps a second honk would tell you orbital and rotational periods, since it could compare 2 snap shots of the system and determine motion of planets. Mass and composition would need to be confined to using the FSS.

 

[Riverside]

That's not a compromise. The old ADS was broadly and objectively superior in many functions. To reintroduce it would displace the FSS except for level 2 scans and create a single optimal approach.

Maybe if the ADS had a range limit...

It doesn't create a single optimal approach (meta), that's the thing, because it occupies a slot (a change to the FSS made during beta was that it no longer occupied a slot, originally it did).

The ADS isn't OP compared to the current implementation and the remaining (weak) justification for removing the old modules evaporated during the beta.

 

[baqar79]

Yeah, that is the problem with placing any sort of handicap on the original ADS module if it returned but was nerfed in someway. The best way to account for all other exploration styles would be to return the module as it was in 3.2.

By making it optional, it wouldn't effect your exploration if you hated it, and you would still have an additional optional slot as a reward for not using it.

EDIT: I should add that personally I would prefer that the FSS improves with better information over having to use the ADS myself if it returned, but I feel that ADS should return as well so that other exploration styles that existed before the change can continue to do so.

 

[[VR] Merkir]

That's not a compromise. The old ADS was broadly and objectively superior in many functions. To reintroduce it would displace the FSS except for level 2 scans and create a single optimal approach.

Maybe if the ADS had a range limit...

I'm curious. Why would you think reintroducing the ADS would "displace the FSS" when the ADS can't even award first discovered tags?

 

[marx]

Another thought: ironically enough, for the only new exploration content that the Chapter Four update introduced, which are NSPs (Notable Stellar Phenomena), using the FSS is actually the worse option. You might miss them there, while simply looking at the navigation panel will tell you much more noticeably when there are any in the system.

As for what Morbad remarked, about too many mini-games and such: in general, the FSS introduced rather pointless busy-work, where you do things to reveal what the game already knows, but when you are about to find out what the game doesn't already know (chiefly, geological POIs), you can't actually do anything. All you can do is either watch the spinner, or leave the body to scan others and return to it later. It would be much better if the game calculated the required information while you were busy playing whatever mini-game, and presenting to you the information that is already available without putting in time sinks. That would be more responsive, as opposed to having to watch a spinner in hopes of finding something, only to be presented with yet another planet of 32 geologicals.

The alternate suggestion I had in this thread earlier (see here) would accomplish this nicely.

 

[Morbad]

Why would you think reintroducing the ADS would "displace the FSS" when the ADS can't even award first discovered tags?

I was mostly speaking of the process involved in identifying specific bodies worth investigating. With the ADS this was a honk and quick glance at the system map, all of which could be done while scooping and charging for the next jump.

 

[Riverside]

I was mostly speaking of the process involved in identifying specific bodies worth investigating. With the ADS this was a honk and quick glance at the system map, all of which could be done while scooping and charging for the next jump.

That allows for non-viable candidate systems (for whatever criteria the player is looking for) to be more quickly eliminated, a desireable QoL feature on a game map the size of the galaxy. Forcing busywork to eliminate the dross (when it could be before) is not an improvement, it is a backward step in the design of the game.

 

[CMDR Karrde Sun]

EDIT: I should add that personally I would prefer that the FSS improves with better information over having to use the ADS myself if it returned, but I feel that ADS should return as well so that other exploration styles that existed before the change can continue to do so.

You know, i could live with that too. This attempt i took a real crack at imagining the system map from the spectrum, to some misguided expectation that we would be able to.

You can't. See the last few pages. It works for seeing if the most valuable credit bodies are in the system, for sure. And if something has rings on it after some inconvenience. That's about it. You simply can't replace the system map from the fss until you've cleared it 100% or so.

 

[Skip Rockbounder]

I was mostly speaking of the process involved in identifying specific bodies worth investigating. With the ADS this was a honk and quick glance at the system map, all of which could be done while scooping and charging for the next jump.

So, that was a bad thing... to assess on the move? right now I have the fortune of popping the data on the good stuff without even moving... even be it 460 000 light seconds away, yup , all I have to do is reduce my throttle and access the FSS for a few seconds.
In fact sometimes it even gives me bragging rights and the associated wedge for MRB's while I scoop... lovely, loads a money for doing NOTHING!

 

[Morbad]

That allows for non-viable candidate systems (for whatever criteria the player is looking for) to be more quickly eliminated

Yes.

a desireable QoL feature

Well, for some of us.

on a game map the size of the galaxy.

With 400 billion systems, we're never going to see more than a tiny fraction, no matter the method for evaluating candidate systems.

However, this does give me an idea for an FSS that works across hyperspace magnitudes of distance...

Forcing busywork to eliminate the dross (when it could be before) is not an improvement, it is a backward step in the design of the game.

I share the distaste for busywork, but I do not want to go back to an instantaneous system that offered even less in the way of gameplay, even if it was more convenient and faster.

So, that was a bad thing... to assess on the move?

Something did feel silly, from my perspective, when I could assess upwards of sixty systems an hour.

 

[Skip Rockbounder]

With 400 billion systems, we're never going to see more than a tiny fraction, no matter the method for evaluating candidate systems.

Something did feel silly, from my perspective, when I could assess upwards of sixty systems an hour.

Yes, well, as you allude to 400 billion systems being on offer perhaps that not such a bad thing!

 

[Riverside]

I share the distaste for busywork, but I do not want to go back to an instantaneous system that offered even less in the way of gameplay, even if it was more convenient and faster.

You wouldn't have to.

 

[Morbad]

Yes, well, as you allude to 400 billion systems being on offer perhaps that not such a bad thing!

My goal as a player isn't to catalog the entire galaxy, it's to be immersed in a credible space fantasy setting. Scoophonkjumpification didn't do much to immerse me in the setting and wasn't particularly engrossing gameplay.

You wouldn't have to.

Yeah, I don't have to use the best tool for the job in combat either. I still think it's nuts to expect me to handicap myself, especially in a game with a shared setting that everyone contributes to.

 

[baqar79]

Yeah, I don't have to use the best tool for the job in combat either. I still think it's nuts to expect me to handicap myself, especially in a game with a shared setting that everyone contributes to.

I think that is rather unfair to handicap other exploration styles because you are unhappy about having the option to install the ADS onboard or not, where as it stands right now those explorers don't have any choice whatsoever.

 

[Riverside]

My goal as a player isn't to catalog the entire galaxy, it's to be immersed in a credible space fantasy setting. Scoophonkjumpification didn't do much to immerse me in the setting and wasn't particularly engrossing gameplay.



Yeah, I don't have to use the best tool for the job in combat either. I still think it's nuts to expect me to handicap myself, especially in a game with a shared setting that everyone contributes to.

You would be handicapping yourself how exactly? It saves time (read frustration) in a non-time critical situation. It allows the player to eliminate the dross more effectively, and improves the chances to find interesting stuff (oddly coloured gas giants, unusual arrangements). It is looking out the window compared to travelling through a tunnel when fast travelling, and provides no meaningful advantage that justified it's removal in terms of time to scan a body compared to the current implementation.

For fast travel the meta is to optimise jump range (ie don't fit an ADS or DSS).
For competitive tagging (as I did the other day with 'Raxxla') jump range is king.
For general looking around in a non-competitive way there is no meta, just fit as much or as little as you like in any ship that meets your minimum requirements.

There is no meta that requires an ADS in a game map this big.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

So you use the best tool in both the initial assessment of a system, and the more thorough one. You honk the ADS to get a general idea, without specifics. From that general idea you decide to want to know more, and use the FSS to further your investigation.

The amount of information from the ADS can be limited to such an extend, you can get the information from the FSS if you want. On the other hand, if it's a system you're not interested in, you can abandon it and move on to a system that is more to your liking.

 

[Faded Glory]

My preferred hierarchy of information/decisions would be:
1. Enter the system, honk -> populate the system map. Determine from the system map whether this is a system worth investigating. If positive, proceed.
2. Enter the FSS, resolve the system, or notable bodies in the system. Determine whether there are planets worth investigating. If positive, proceed. (the FSS here would have meant it would have been a great addition to exploration, and I would have been cheering FD for it's introduction.)
3. Fly towards a planet and determine by eyeballing or lobbing some probes at it whether it's a planet worth landing on.

Yes, every step should be part of a process that moves the player to the next level.

For 'traditional' exploration, the FSS does this fine. Enter system and FSS, check energy spectrum for ELW, Locate and scan ELW with FSS. It also works for finding POI's, as in scan body, determine there's a POI, fly to body and probe, find POI location. No need to do anything if the previous step comes up empty.

Unfortunately, if you are looking for oddities then it doesn't do that and the only way to do it is to scan something to see if it's something you want to scan. Poor game design.

There's no good reason not to reinstate the ADS as an optional module, and the great majority of players who like the FSS say they would be quite happy with that.

Those that insist on suggesting the FSS is fit for every purpose will only get my vote when FD remove the spectrum readout, so that it's a level playing field. If the interesting / desired content of a system should be hidden for some players, it's really only fair if it's hidden from all until the system has been fully scanned.