ANNOUNCEMENT Game Balancing Pt.2

[Hellrider]

Until the mining nerf the procces was:

• Sidewinder, Cobra, Road to riches Bubble - robigo ===> Passenger python, then the same day, Anaconda, a few more passenger missions, and next day fully fitted conda, go mining, 5 billions in a week.
• Then that commander start grinding and farming materials for engineers and in the next ten days he has a fully fitted cutter for combat, mining, cargo, or whatever. And of course an FDL or Mamba.

That's why I'm very happy, that I learned game from...game. Game and wiki. Wiki don't say about all goldrushes and ways to the best farming.

But yes, probably there are people who think I am stupid, so go one, burn me

Yes, especially people, which are victims of internet and mining and still think, that "no way to money outside mining" or "less than 200m/h is waste of time". Their problem, not your.

 

[Nugstar]

Well, then the devs are wrong, lol. The carriers in our squadron are in use all the time, supporting both BGS efforts, new CMDRs, CMDRs who don't want a fleet carrier, etc. they're well and truly a part of the game, not end game at all. They've changed the gameplay, we can now load up a Fleet Carrier to go to Colonia and unlock engineers, or go to the Crab Head Nebula with a bunch of CMDRs onboard, both old and new, we can park them outside CZ's that don't have any decent stations nearby for refuel and repair and/or outfitting/shipyard. They are very much the opposite of endgame, they've changed the game completely.



So that's your measure of 'endgame', the amount of stuff you can buy? I think that's maybe just from playing the game from the early days when buying a Cutter was 'endgame' because it was the most expensive, hardest ship to attain in the game and because of its shield loadout, one of the hardest in the game to destroy. As you've said yourself, this game has no 'end', FC's are just an achievement you can unlock and then use as a very valuable tool. Endgame implies you stop playing when you've got one... which is rubbish.

If you own a carrier you've played for a significant amount of time, therefore in my opinion that makes ou an 'end game' player. One that has most ships, has done some engineering and has good knowledge of the way things work.

A new player should NOT be able to afford a carrier. It should be a goal for those that stick around long enough to afford one. imo.

 

[Nugstar]

I don't really have a problem with every player having access to all the ships from the start, that's essentially how it is anyway bar the Cutter and the Vette which they have to earn, every other ship is available as soon as they can afford one. I too went through that grind of taking months to earn my FDL and by that point, I was burnt out big time and I put the game down for a long time. If anything, giving players the ability to get up into bigger better ships faster is a godsend to the game, because if you're stuck in a sidey for a week, then a Cobra for a month, then eventually you get an FDL but it's gunna cost you more than the ship did to make it flyable and that's gunna take you another month in what you now realise is actually a crap ship with E rated modules, you're just gunna quit. Let people get access to the ships easy, that's a good thing for the rest of us. I see no value in locking people down into a slow rate of progress and despite what some may say about not caring about casual players, they're part of the game and can be very valuable parts of the game. We have a guy in our squadron who only gets an hour or two a day max and sometimes no time at all during a day to play, he's a great PVPer, contributes massively to our BGS effort as a squadron, he helps out newer players when they need advice, or someone to join their wing to complete a mission, why force him (and plenty of others like him) into spending most of his game time earning credits to be able to buy a Cutter he has the rank but not the credits for, just because we had it hard once? Makes no sense.

Im NOT saying it should take months to earn a ship. Are you even reading my posts?

I'm saying 25m credits per hour is a good amount.

100m credits an hour is too much.

 

[PontifusRex]

If you own a carrier you've played for a significant amount of time, therefore in my opinion that makes you an 'end game' player.

I agree, but then there are those who bust their asp for one too. The buddy I referred to in my post above only started playing back in April. His goal from day one was to own a FC and he busted his asp day in and day out mining until he had enough credits to get it. And he did. Kudos to him but man...

 

[CMDR HollowPointPC]

Im NOT saying it should take months to earn a ship. Are you even reading my posts?

I'm saying 25m credits per hour is a good amount.

100m credits an hour is too much.

I'm not sure you're reading mine. Why does it have to be hard to earn money? Those of us who play 5 hours+ a day, every day, won't give a other than it makes the thing more grindy than it was before and slows down any new ships, or means we have to sacrifice play time for carrier upkeep, but yeah, whatever, that's fine. Those who don't get to play as much will be disproportionately affected. Stop trying to insist everyones game has to slow down because you want it to, plenty don't. I agree completely the mining nerf needed to happen as it was silly money and too much OP vs any other profession, but taking earnings down to 25m/hr would be malicious and pointless.

 

[CMDR HollowPointPC]

I agree, but then there are those who bust their asp for one too. The buddy I referred to in my post above only started playing back in April. His goal from day one was to own a FC and he busted his asp day and day out mining until he had enough credits to get it. And he did. Kudos to him but man...

see this, is my point, not everyone has 5 hours a day to play and not everyone wants to spend months earning a carrier, some people just want to buy the ships they want to buy and play the rest of the game, Guardians, Thargoids, PVP, BGS, etc. The game has evolved WAY beyond the original 'Cutter is OP ship' grind that it once was and people need to move on from it.

 

[Nugstar]

I'm not sure you're reading mine. Why does it have to be hard to earn money? Those of us who play 5 hours+ a day, every day, won't give a poopoo other than it makes the thing more grindy than it was before and slows down any new ships, or means we have to sacrifice play time for carrier upkeep, but yeah, whatever, that's fine. Those who don't get to play as much will be disproportionately affected. Stop trying to insist everyones game has to slow down because you want it to, plenty don't. I agree completely the mining nerf needed to happen as it was silly money and too much OP vs any other profession, but taking earnings down to 25m/hr would be malicious and pointless.

I'm not trying to slow the game down for me, or be malicious in any way.

I think progression in Elite is very important, and to hear you say you see nothing wrong with giving new players all the ships at the start (except the Cutter and Vette) makes talking to you pointless. Maybe you'd like credits to be removed from the game entirely and let players have everything they want at the click of a button?

My point is: Progression is enjoyable when it is done right.

I have seen both sides of the coin.

I have seen endless grind when Elite was first released. And I have seen People earn a Cutter in an hour.

Both are not great gaming experiences, especially in a game like Elite.

The fun starts when you get the progression just right.

 

[CMDR BlackFyre]

Im NOT saying it should take months to earn a ship. Are you even reading my posts?

I'm saying 25m credits per hour is a good amount.

100m credits an hour is too much.

for the people who just started 100mil/h is too much, but when you are Elite trading rank and have a lot of exspensive ships perhaps not so much.

 

[Nugstar]

for the people who just started 100mil/h is too much, but when you are Elite trading rank and have a lot of exspensive ships perhaps not so much.

Yea I can agree with that.

 

[CMDR HollowPointPC]

I'm not trying to slow the game down for me, or be malicious in any way.

I think progression in Elite is very important, and to hear you say you see nothing wrong with giving new players all the ships at the start (except the Cutter and Vette) makes talking to you pointless. Maybe you'd like credits to be removed from the game entirely and let players have everything they want at the click of a button?

My point is: Progression is enjoyable when it is done right.

I have seen both sides of the coin.

I have seen endless grind when Elite was first released. And I have seen People earn a Cutter in an hour.

Both are not great gaming experiences, especially in a game like Elite.

The fun starts when you get the progression just right.

Which I think it is and this proves you're not reading my posts, I didn't say give them every ship at the start, I said they've got access to all ships at the start, bar the Cutter and the Vette, they just need to earn the money to pay for them. I don't have a problem with someone earning that money fast and I don't see why you or anyone else does, if you want to take a billion transport missions and use the T6 and 7 and 9, go for it, why does that mean everyone else has to? Some people JUST want to do combat, they're not interested in trade or exploration, why can't they go to a Haz Res, kill some NPCs, upgrade to a Cobra that same day, kill some more and upgrade to a Chieftain the day after that? As the guy above said, his friends only goal was to get to a carrier, he has done that and now whether he chooses to continue playing or not, is his choice, not yours or mine. Why does everyone always want to force their will on everyone else? My alt is currently out exploring, after doing a few weeks of grinding through the ships one after another, the old fashioned way, right up until I got bored doing that and decided I'd get some money the easy way so I could do what I wanted to do with that account, explore.

 

[Nugstar]

Which I think it is and this proves you're not reading my posts, I didn't say give them every ship at the start, I said they've got access to all ships at the start, bar the Cutter and the Vette, they just need to earn the money to pay for them. I don't have a problem with someone earning that money fast and I don't see why you or anyone else does, if you want to take a billion transport missions and use the T6 and 7 and 9, go for it, why does that mean everyone else has to? Some people JUST want to do combat, they're not interested in trade or exploration, why can't they go to a Haz Res, kill some NPCs, upgrade to a Cobra that same day, kill some more and upgrade to a Chieftain the day after that? As the guy above said, his friends only goal was to get to a carrier, he has done that and now whether he chooses to continue playing or not, is his choice, not yours or mine. Why does everyone always want to force their will on everyone else? My alt is currently out exploring, after doing a few weeks of grinding through the ships one after another, the old fashioned way, right up until I got bored doing that and decided I'd get some money the easy way so I could do what I wanted to do with that account, explore.

Because making progression go too quickly makes some players quit the game sooner.

Equally, make the game too grindy and the same happens, players quit sooner.

I'd like Elite to be popular for a long time to come. Healthy steady rewarding progression makes players feel better, enjoy the game more and stick around for longer.

 

[PontifusRex]

Yep. Like I said before, I would love to own a carrier but I can't bring myself to do the work required to earn all those credits.

To me, it's not a game anymore if I have to spend all my free time "working" for something I believe is way overpriced to begin with. And I'm not talking the 5 billion as much as I am the weekly upkeep costs.

I have a real issue paying big credits for the privilege of continued ownership. Kinda of like excessive condo fees for a fancy apartment that you've already paid millions for.

 

[CMDR BlackFyre]

Which I think it is and this proves you're not reading my posts, I didn't say give them every ship at the start, I said they've got access to all ships at the start, bar the Cutter and the Vette, they just need to earn the money to pay for them. I don't have a problem with someone earning that money fast and I don't see why you or anyone else does, if you want to take a billion transport missions and use the T6 and 7 and 9, go for it, why does that mean everyone else has to? Some people JUST want to do combat, they're not interested in trade or exploration, why can't they go to a Haz Res, kill some NPCs, upgrade to a Cobra that same day, kill some more and upgrade to a Chieftain the day after that? As the guy above said, his friends only goal was to get to a carrier, he has done that and now whether he chooses to continue playing or not, is his choice, not yours or mine. Why does everyone always want to force their will on everyone else? My alt is currently out exploring, after doing a few weeks of grinding through the ships one after another, the old fashioned way, right up until I got bored doing that and decided I'd get some money the easy way so I could do what I wanted to do with that account, explore.

i think he did read your post and just understood it diferently then intended, but i have to agree with him. Many games are fun because you need to actually play the game to get things and not just basicaly get them handed out to you, rebuy means nothing if people can get the money without any realy risk the combat pay out is fine now i think. to fast progression is boring in most cases to me to slow is the same.

 

[Nugstar]

Yep. Like I said before, I would love to own a carrier but I can't bring myself to do the work required to earn all those credits.

To me, it's not a game anymore if I have to spend all my free time "working" for something I believe is way overpriced to begin with. And I'm not talking the 5 billion as much as I am the weekly upkeep costs.

I have a real issue paying big credits for the privilege of continued ownership. Kinda of like excessive condo fees for a fancy apartment that you've already paid millions for.

Ageed, upkeep sucks.

If only Carriers weren't a server hog, that way they could afford to have loads of them.

 

[CMDR HollowPointPC]

Because making progression go too quickly makes some players quit the game sooner.

Equally, make the game too grindy and the same happens, players quit sooner.

I'd like Elite to be popular for a long time to come. Healthy steady rewarding progression makes players feel better, enjoy the game more and stick around for longer.

Me too, but 25M cr/hr is too low for that to be viable. Besides, no one earns a Cutter in an hour, you're lucky if you can complete the Empire grind in a day of solid playing and you certainly won't earn enough to pay for the Cutter if you do data missions for a solid day to get the rank, so then off to the mines you go with your dolphin, or Cobra or whatever, you mine, you trade, you buy new ships. Again, my point isn't that we should be able to earn 400M/hr that's silly and way too quick, everyone seems to agree that, but the ability to earn 100M/hr seems fair, even 200M/hr if you've got the skill and capability to do it seems a reasonable fast track to earn credits. The issue I take with setting the bar too low on cr/hr is that you rule out those players who just want to do PVP, you make alts almost pointless because people won't want another account if they have to take eons to get their PVP ships built if that's what the account is for, or to get their explorer setup, or to build their BGS fleet if that's why they want the alt, there are literally tonnes of reasons not to slow it down that much. I do agree, that progressively earning more needs to be better, not just related to your rep with a faction, it should have more to do with your rank and experience in the game, but that's difficult to achieve. I mean, if someone happens to be good enough at combat to kill an Elite Anaconda in a Haz Res with their Cobra MkIII and a couple of MCs, why should they get less bounty than I do for the same kill, just because their combat rank is 'Mostly Harmless' and mine is 'Dangerous'? Right now, combat seems to be possible to earn about 50M/hour in a decent Haz Res, or Pirate Threat 7 signal, you can still earn about 100M/hr it would seem if you go mining, but why is that really a problem? Those who want immersive and engaging gameplay will go combat, those who just want to earn some credits to pay for whatever trophy they want to achieve, will go mining... I don't see an issue.

 

[CMDR BlackFyre]

Me too, but 25M cr/hr is too low for that to be viable. Besides, no one earns a Cutter in an hour, you're lucky if you can complete the Empire grind in a day of solid playing and you certainly won't earn enough to pay for the Cutter if you do data missions for a solid day to get the rank, so then off to the mines you go with your dolphin, or Cobra or whatever, you mine, you trade, you buy new ships. Again, my point isn't that we should be able to earn 400M/hr that's silly and way too quick, everyone seems to agree that, but the ability to earn 100M/hr seems fair, even 200M/hr if you've got the skill and capability to do it seems a reasonable fast track to earn credits. The issue I take with setting the bar too low on cr/hr is that you rule out those players who just want to do PVP, you make alts almost pointless because people won't want another account if they have to take eons to get their PVP ships built if that's what the account is for, or to get their explorer setup, or to build their BGS fleet if that's why they want the alt, there are literally tonnes of reasons not to slow it down that much. I do agree, that progressively earning more needs to be better, not just related to your rep with a faction, it should have more to do with your rank and experience in the game, but that's difficult to achieve. I mean, if someone happens to be good enough at combat to kill an Elite Anaconda in a Haz Res with their Cobra MkIII and a couple of MCs, why should they get less bounty than I do for the same kill, just because their combat rank is 'Mostly Harmless' and mine is 'Dangerous'? Right now, combat seems to be possible to earn about 50M/hour in a decent Haz Res, or Pirate Threat 7 signal, you can still earn about 100M/hr it would seem if you go mining, but why is that really a problem? Those who want immersive and engaging gameplay will go combat, those who just want to earn some credits to pay for whatever trophy they want to achieve, will go mining... I don't see an issue.

tbh this seems like a "immovable object meets an unstopable force scenario"

 

[CMDR HollowPointPC]

i think he did read your post and just understood it diferently then intended, but i have to agree with him. Many games are fun because you need to actually play the game to get things and not just basicaly get them handed out to you, rebuy means nothing if people can get the money without any realy risk the combat pay out is fine now i think. to fast progression is boring in most cases to me to slow is the same.

Again though, this comes down to what people want from the game, not everyone wants to trade, explore, fight NPCs and mine and that's the point of the balancing, is to cut the ridiculous amount of money people could make mining, while boosting the money people can make doing other 'trades' in the game. Games are fun for you if you actually have to achieve things and I tend to agree with you, that's how I play too, but I know plenty who would sign up to Elite to blow up other CMDRs and do PVP, only to find it's not that simple, you have to grind for a week before you can afford the ship, then grind another month to unlock the engineers, then grind another week to pick up all the materials you need... if you extend the credit grind even further, most players who come in just for the PVP aspect, will bail. FDev knows this and it's why they introduced Arena/CQC, only that didn't end up really being all that popular and sometimes it's hard to find a match at all. Campaign mode should be a campaign, but not a lifetime of dedication

 

[CMDR HollowPointPC]

tbh this seems like a "immovable object meets an unstopable force scenario"

not really, we seem to agree on the idea that progression should be the right speed, we just disagree with what speed that should be, because we want different things from the game, which is the essence of my point

 

[PontifusRex]

Just for some OT background, I read a real estate ad recently advertising a nice two-story townhouse (condo) available in NYC.

The ask was about $2,5 million. Not bad for what it was. The monthly "maintenance fees" were $3,300!

WTFug do you need that much money a month to maintain a townhouse lol.

This is why I hate the way FC are currently implemented in the game.

 

[Apocalysse]

see this, is my point, not everyone has 5 hours a day to play and not everyone wants to spend months earning a carrier, some people just want to buy the ships they want to buy and play the rest of the game, Guardians, Thargoids, PVP, BGS, etc. The game has evolved WAY beyond the original 'Cutter is OP ship' grind that it once was and people need to move on from it.

I'm finding right your thinking, because i have also a lot of ships and when i got a Cutter (my old objective) and i have enginered it, i have find out that i was knowing very little of the game. A new player can get a anaconda pretty fast, but does he know how to make a build from the scratch ? The answer is no because the lack of knowledge. I have passed some times on Elite and even now i can see build that i never thinked of and it turn me on to try them by buying another ship!
In the end the Cutter / Corvette are only another ship to enjoy different set-up and gameplay, possessing it doesn't mean you have "finished" the game or that you are OP, the is much more out of the ship itself ^^