ANNOUNCEMENT Game Balancing

This put the mining OP (overpay) into quite a perspective for me. Been doing a few painite mining runs past few days in a Python, I am not the fastest miner, but still managed to fill 196T of painite in about 1.5 hours, sold them for a profit of 170+mil credits.
When you compare that to my net of 1.7m from an hour of laser mining, which included a 200t hold half filled with gold, platinum, palladium and other 10k+ items.... well, yeah, game economy is totally busted.

Who'd've thought... those things are a total waste of time
 
In my opinion when it comes to constantly nerfing mining, Is it fair for the new commanders where I had an advantage with mining then?
Do you currently feel it’s unfair that I cashed in on 100’s millions of credits when ‘source and retrieve’ missions were borked or when long distance passenger runs were allowing me to buy a new Anaconda every run?

Probably not.

The games future can’t be based on past mistakes...
 
I don’t care about them owning the biggest ships and if you had read what I wrote properly I said the fun is to be had with or without the big ships. I was never framing any argument about the big ship or anything else. I just find it strange that only way some people can have fun in this game is to have all the toys at once and that somehow playing the game is a “grind”.
Don't be disingenuous mate, you're not in this thread discussing the balancing of player incomes just idly commenting that "nobody needs to earn lots of money" at random lol, especially since literally nobody has stated the position you're arguing against. "I quite like being able to earn ships without months of grinding" is not the same thing as "I am a spoiled child and I must have all the toys immediately" and you all need to stop trying to pretend that's what people are asking for when they say "the game shouldn't be grindy".

"Do not lust after material possessions, they won't bring happiness" is a fine philosophy in the real world but Elite is a video game and it's not some kind of moral failing if someone says "boy, I'd really like to be able to try out those bigger ships in this game that I play for fun".

The games future can’t be based on past mistakes...
And yet it is and will probably continue to be for a long time yet. We've been having this dumb argument about "does wanting to reach the endgame ships quickly make you a bad person y/n?" since before launch and it's not a problem that will ever be solved while ships are the endgame. Literally everything in game is priced on a ludicrously ever-increasing curve because Frontier seemingly assume that everyone will stop playing as soon as they've ticked off the box that says "I own the best ship" and that's actually true for a lot of players because it's a self-fulfilling prophecy - if ships are the endgame, then there's nothing new to do once you have those ships. The early game of Elite is very strong - every thing you do right provides clear progress towards your next goal, everything you do wrong has the potential to set you back noticeably and you could lose your ship fairly easily. It's fun and exciting and it drives players forwards (assuming they don't bounce off the more needlessly obtuse elements, but that's another discussion entirely :V). There comes a point however, where factors combine to the game's detriment: upgrades stop giving a noticeable increase in earning power, the cost of the next upgrade scales exponentially, the ship you're in is functionally invincible (at least in PvE) and even if you did lose it, the insurance payout is a drop in the vast (but not vast enough to buy that A-rated powerplant you want) ocean of your wealth. This is when the game starts to feel for a lot of people like a grind.

Imagine though, if everything was priced much more reasonably. Like, say a stock Anaconda cost 14 million instead of 146 million - obviously that's insanely cheap for a ship with the anaconda's ability to do more or less everything while never being at any real risk. Ok but now that it's so cheap, it doesn't need to be anywhere near as powerful as it is and it certainly doesn't represent such a colossal time investment that it needs to be functionally indestructible. So we tone it (and the other mid to high tier ships) down substantially and it's "just another ship". Well now it doesn't matter so much if you lose it, right? So I guess insurance doesn't need to be almost comically forgiving anymore. Now that early game combination of constant progress, real risk and losses mattering carries on through all the ships and the game is in a much healthier place going forward.

Of course, we need something else to use as an endgame but I daresay the devs have more time to work on that now that they aren't spending 90% of their time trying to find the mythical sweet spot where incomes are high enough that players don't leave because they'll never earn the big ships but low enough that players don't ever earn the big ships and then leave :V
 
Don't be disingenuous mate, you're not in this thread discussing the balancing of player incomes just idly commenting that "nobody needs to earn lots of money" at random lol, especially since literally nobody has stated the position you're arguing against. "I quite like being able to earn ships without months of grinding" is not the same thing as "I am a spoiled child and I must have all the toys immediately" and you all need to stop trying to pretend that's what people are asking for when they say "the game shouldn't be grindy".

"Do not lust after material possessions, they won't bring happiness" is a fine philosophy in the real world but Elite is a video game and it's not some kind of moral failing if someone says "boy, I'd really like to be able to try out those bigger ships in this game that I play for fun".


And yet it is and will probably continue to be for a long time yet. We've been having this dumb argument about "does wanting to reach the endgame ships quickly make you a bad person y/n?" since before launch and it's not a problem that will ever be solved while ships are the endgame. Literally everything in game is priced on a ludicrously ever-increasing curve because Frontier seemingly assume that everyone will stop playing as soon as they've ticked off the box that says "I own the best ship" and that's actually true for a lot of players because it's a self-fulfilling prophecy - if ships are the endgame, then there's nothing new to do once you have those ships. The early game of Elite is very strong - every thing you do right provides clear progress towards your next goal, everything you do wrong has the potential to set you back noticeably and you could lose your ship fairly easily. It's fun and exciting and it drives players forwards (assuming they don't bounce off the more needlessly obtuse elements, but that's another discussion entirely :V). There comes a point however, where factors combine to the game's detriment: upgrades stop giving a noticeable increase in earning power, the cost of the next upgrade scales exponentially, the ship you're in is functionally invincible (at least in PvE) and even if you did lose it, the insurance payout is a drop in the vast (but not vast enough to buy that A-rated powerplant you want) ocean of your wealth. This is when the game starts to feel for a lot of people like a grind.

Imagine though, if everything was priced much more reasonably. Like, say a stock Anaconda cost 14 million instead of 146 million - obviously that's insanely cheap for a ship with the anaconda's ability to do more or less everything while never being at any real risk. Ok but now that it's so cheap, it doesn't need to be anywhere near as powerful as it is and it certainly doesn't represent such a colossal time investment that it needs to be functionally indestructible. So we tone it (and the other mid to high tier ships) down substantially and it's "just another ship". Well now it doesn't matter so much if you lose it, right? So I guess insurance doesn't need to be almost comically forgiving anymore. Now that early game combination of constant progress, real risk and losses mattering carries on through all the ships and the game is in a much healthier place going forward.

Of course, we need something else to use as an endgame but I daresay the devs have more time to work on that now that they aren't spending 90% of their time trying to find the mythical sweet spot where incomes are high enough that players don't leave because they'll never earn the big ships but low enough that players don't ever earn the big ships and then leave :V
If you quite like being able to buy lots of ships without waiting months then it is possible and looks likely will remain so after the changes, in fact even more possible. But what makes the game more enjoyable having lots of ships? Having played the original Elite, where you had zero choice of ship and limited upgrades and still played it for months maybe my expectations differ from the average player.
No what puzzles me about the grind is that to get the next thing that you want you have to play the game loops, but if that is grindy and you don’t enjoy it why do you play the game in the first place? I hear comments like the Guardian unlocks are a terrible grind, which I don’t understand as I had a complete blast doing them. The animation and sound for the various elements is very well done and stalking Sentinels around the ruins, picking off one at time was fun.
There was an interesting video by Morphologist about how people are leaving Star Citizen because there is nothing you can achieve in the game that can’t be bought in the CIG store.
 
No what puzzles me about the grind is that to get the next thing that you want you have to play the game loops, but if that is grindy and you don’t enjoy it why do you play the game in the first place?
My guy, you could read the post you're quoting where I explain at some length how the game starts out fun and why it becomes grindy later on. That's an option you have available to you :V
 
Having played the original Elite, where you had zero choice of ship and limited upgrades and still played it for months maybe my expectations differ from the average player.
Hope you don't mind me asking. What difference does it make what ED did look like 150 years ago. We have 2020. I've purchased my game in 2020, I do not care what was/wasn't at the beginning of the game... Market has changed, you either play by new rules or you can pack up the business.
 
Hope you don't mind me asking. What difference does it make what ED did look like 150 years ago. We have 2020. I've purchased my game in 2020, I do not care what was/wasn't at the beginning of the game... Market has changed, you either play by new rules or you can pack up the business.
First while it may be a lifetime for some it wasn’t that long ago, however all our past experiences shape our current expectations.

Congratulations you seem to have purchased the game at a time where things are changing yet again, I hope those changes aren’t too disappointing for you.
 
RE: Pirates at mining locations.
I never have pirates because I don't mine inside the bubble. I have at least 8 systems I found by exploration outside the bubble in which I was able to find whatever I wanted and since they are outside the bubble, no pirates.
It is going to be interesting to see what mining is like now.
As for the Payouts, I made my current billion CR in TWO ships/accounts in Private Group in Wing mostly mining and I never got anything like the prices that the DEV's are now seeming to say will be "balanced".
 
Hope you don't mind me asking. What difference does it make what ED did look like 150 years ago. We have 2020. I've purchased my game in 2020, I do not care what was/wasn't at the beginning of the game... Market has changed, you either play by new rules or you can pack up the business.
"I played the original elite in 1984 and it didn't have feature X" is a fairly common argument around these parts but I played the original too and let me tell you, it's a straight up betrayal of its memory to use what was, without doubt, the most cutting edge videogame of its generation as an argument in favour of settling for less.
 
Greetings Commanders!

Game balance has been at the heart of many discussions around Elite Dangerous, for a long time, and rightly so. At its core, Elite Dangerous is about blazing your own trail and we want all Commanders to feel fairly rewarded for whichever path they choose.

To this end, we have taken a close look at the current state of the game and where we would like it to be. Using our data combined with your feedback, we have created a plan of incremental changes we hope will bring the key gameplay mechanics more in line with each other.

What's Changing?

Elite Dangerous has seen a lot of changes since its release in 2014. Among many other aspects of the game, these changes have affected the core gameplay elements and how players earn credits. Over that time, while we have made some balancing adjustments, these elements have inevitably grown out of sync.

In response to your feedback, will bring a series of balancing adjustments to the rate at which credits are earned in each core gameplay mechanic: mining, trade, combat and exploration. Our goal is to have rewards better match the level of skill, effort, and risk each method requires. This means we'll see increased credit rates in some activities and reductions in others.

Crucially, this re-balancing will be an ongoing process where we spend time observing how the changes affect the game and how you, the community, respond both in-game and with your feedback. This may mean several adjustments are needed for each type of gameplay before settling on final values. Giving each method attention in isolation will allow us to more accurately see the results and tweak accordingly, hence the step by step approach, but ultimately they all need to work in the context of each other.

Mining and combat stand out from your feedback as needing the most attention with regards to balancing. As such, we will begin with mining, bring the top range down to a point we see as fair and look at which aspects of mining should offer the greatest rewards based on the skill required.

After this, we intend to look at increasing bounties and solo combat missions in the weeks that follow to meet expected levels. From there we can turn to the still important but less pressing elements such as other mission types and exploration.

These changes will be woven into Elite Dangerous lore and introduced through the narrative. The first can be expected early next week in the form of a GalNet article.

Mining and Trade

Mining has been the most lucrative role within Elite Dangerous for a long time. While this makes perfect sense as pilots find, extract, and transport huge quantities of precious minerals, the gap has become disproportional. This has allowed even brand new Commanders to become wealthy enough to buy the highest performing ships very quickly. For the health and longevity of Elite Dangerous, we're going to considerably reduce the payout of this activity so that it remains lucrative but players won't feel compelled to head out to the latest triple hotspot whenever they need credits.

The following changes will be implemented early next week as a starting point:

These approximate maximum prices offered by markets for the following commodities will be introduced:
  • Painite - 600,000
  • Low Temperature Diamonds - 700,000
  • Void Opals - 1,300,000

To recognise and reward the extra effort and skill needed for core mining, the majority of minerals extracted this way will see an increase in price, barring Void Opals mentioned above. Several mining commodities which can be bought will have the range of their prices increased, resulting in a higher number of goods with strong profit margins (25,000+) when commodity markets are in suitable states.

To benefit trade, we'll also bring the following changes:
  • Commodity markets will offer the average price rather than minimum price when selling in bulk. This will affect all commodities.
  • The base prices of a number of general salvage items will be increased.

What's Next?

As above, these first changes will happen early next week. We'll spend time observing their effects and listening to your feedback before deciding whether further adjustments are needed.

Next, we intend to adjust combat rewards in the form of bounties and mission payouts. You can expect to hear the planned changes before the date is announced in a post similar to this one.

Thank you in advance for your patience and understanding that this isn't a fast process and it will take time for the effects to become clear.

We would also most importantly like to thank you for your continued constructive feedback on this topic, which will be invaluable during this process!

Thanks for your support,

o7
Great, but what about the pulse wave analyser issue? Apparently its broken, which us useless if your a core miner.
 
Ok this is clearer, to be honest none of us play for the credits in Powerplay, we play it because it is the only form of E-sports in Elite. Now Powerplay is about PvP, and that is coming form someone who is NOT a PvPer, I am one of Winters Leadership and my area is Undermining so PvE Combat, but because our culture in Winters is to support Open play, we have almost weekly training to our Haulers and recruits on how to survive a PvP, the idea that if you cannot send your combat PvP to stop your enemies, and them sending theirs to stop us, then the game will become a game of numbers "the community with largest player numbers wins" which turn Powerplay into another grind. But when we strategies we try to put hooks and hoops so that we have contingency plans to when the enemy tries to blockade a system or attack us and try to stop us from fortifying or expanding etc... that is the beauty of Powerplay, that it can be dynamic, even with all the broken mechanics in Powerplay if it becomes open only a lot of things are solved:

1. you can catch random players from your own faction doing harmful things to you because they rely on the info that the game gives them which is wrong, we always tell our recruits: The game UI lies, Fdev Lies. The only way to reach random players who play in solo now is through system chat, which is not efficient because most of the time they will take the devs word over ours even if we know Powerplay more than Fdev will ever know it (Because Frontiers developers do not play their game)
2. It will solve the 5C problem, no longer will we need to fight our competitors in game AND 5C from within,5C plague all the major powers. Once it is open only, you can catch these horrible CMDRS (mostly bots) and fight them.
3. It will create epic battles (we had few of these) where we send Combat Air Patrol to protect our haulers and distract enemy PvPers, and vise versa

In the end the Lead Designer of Powerplay Sandro said repeatedly that Powerplay is mainly a consensual PvP gameplay, consensual PvP doesn't mean you need to be a PvPer but to accept that you will be attacked by your enemy PvPers.

As I said I am not a PvPers, I have rarely ever blew up a CMDR in game, but I learned how to survive an Attack which is very satisfying actually.
Good answer! Your power is lucky to have you, respect.

Thing is how can anything profound change in Elite such as OOPP without causing a major community meltdown? How can modes be separated without denying aspects of the game to other players, it’s a hard thing to get right.

I think (speaking for myself) a lot of issues are the RL players that a hell bent on ruining the experience for others - and by that I don’t mean PvP powerplay - but the other type, you only have to take a look at the seal clubbing going on near the starter systems to see what I mean in action.

Anyway, you have a point - and it’s made me think a little harder on my stance on the issue.
 
Don't be disingenuous mate, you're not in this thread discussing the balancing of player incomes just idly commenting that "nobody needs to earn lots of money" at random lol, especially since literally nobody has stated the position you're arguing against. "I quite like being able to earn ships without months of grinding" is not the same thing as "I am a spoiled child and I must have all the toys immediately" and you all need to stop trying to pretend that's what people are asking for when they say "the game shouldn't be grindy".

"Do not lust after material possessions, they won't bring happiness" is a fine philosophy in the real world but Elite is a video game and it's not some kind of moral failing if someone says "boy, I'd really like to be able to try out those bigger ships in this game that I play for fun".


And yet it is and will probably continue to be for a long time yet. We've been having this dumb argument about "does wanting to reach the endgame ships quickly make you a bad person y/n?" since before launch and it's not a problem that will ever be solved while ships are the endgame. Literally everything in game is priced on a ludicrously ever-increasing curve because Frontier seemingly assume that everyone will stop playing as soon as they've ticked off the box that says "I own the best ship" and that's actually true for a lot of players because it's a self-fulfilling prophecy - if ships are the endgame, then there's nothing new to do once you have those ships. The early game of Elite is very strong - every thing you do right provides clear progress towards your next goal, everything you do wrong has the potential to set you back noticeably and you could lose your ship fairly easily. It's fun and exciting and it drives players forwards (assuming they don't bounce off the more needlessly obtuse elements, but that's another discussion entirely :V). There comes a point however, where factors combine to the game's detriment: upgrades stop giving a noticeable increase in earning power, the cost of the next upgrade scales exponentially, the ship you're in is functionally invincible (at least in PvE) and even if you did lose it, the insurance payout is a drop in the vast (but not vast enough to buy that A-rated powerplant you want) ocean of your wealth. This is when the game starts to feel for a lot of people like a grind.

Imagine though, if everything was priced much more reasonably. Like, say a stock Anaconda cost 14 million instead of 146 million - obviously that's insanely cheap for a ship with the anaconda's ability to do more or less everything while never being at any real risk. Ok but now that it's so cheap, it doesn't need to be anywhere near as powerful as it is and it certainly doesn't represent such a colossal time investment that it needs to be functionally indestructible. So we tone it (and the other mid to high tier ships) down substantially and it's "just another ship". Well now it doesn't matter so much if you lose it, right? So I guess insurance doesn't need to be almost comically forgiving anymore. Now that early game combination of constant progress, real risk and losses mattering carries on through all the ships and the game is in a much healthier place going forward.

Of course, we need something else to use as an endgame but I daresay the devs have more time to work on that now that they aren't spending 90% of their time trying to find the mythical sweet spot where incomes are high enough that players don't leave because they'll never earn the big ships but low enough that players don't ever earn the big ships and then leave :V
My god, it’s Sunday morning is there a TLDR version of your post?

The point I was making is that new players aren’t going to care how old cmdr’s earned credits. That was it.

It doesn’t even look like Frontier are going to change mining that much. 600k for P is what...a 30% reduction in peak cost? So now it’s going to take an extra half hour to go from a Sidewinder to a Python?

Almost every activity in ED earns the player credits, so when we have too many credits...it diminishes every activity in the game because the reward becomes pointless in my opinion.
 
The same does not apply to anything that generates rewards. You're not "gaming" a PvE system simply by playing it, and it's much easier to balance.

Zero sum PvP is an interesting take and definitely cancels any risk of manipulation but is a huge disincentive for the activity overall.
Zero sum PvP puts us back at having to do other activities to bring credits into the PvP space, so I don't see how it's any different to what we have now.
 
Then FD need to make a PvP feature properly. Powerplay is the ideal basis for that- its mostly separate as it is now. Your power could pay for your rebuy if you held merits or PP cargo at the time maybe (and you were killed by a rival pledge). Not watertight but better than nothing.
 
Imagine though, if everything was priced much more reasonably. Like, say a stock Anaconda cost 14 million instead of 146 million - obviously that's insanely cheap for a ship with the anaconda's ability to do more or less everything while never being at any real risk.
I don't know if it is, though.

The Sidewinder costs 31,000 credits.
The Anaconda is certainly better than the Sidewinder at most tasks, but it's not 4700x better (146M / 31k). It's not even 470x better (14.6M / 31k). At best - for bulk cargo carrying - it's about 30 times better ... and for credit-obtaining exploration it's arguably slightly worse as its much lower supercruise agility will take longer to map planets (sure, the Anaconda can get out to the "first discoveries" zone a bit quicker, but that's only marginally important on a long trip)

It might seem silly for the Anaconda to only cost a million credits (and it probably should cost slightly more than that) ... but if it did, then earning rates could be set at a few thousand an hour (in a Sidewinder), or a few hundred thousand an hour (in an Anaconda), and it'd still all be okay.

As it is, even with the price cut by 90%, the Anaconda is still overpriced for what it can do, which means any earning rate which allows an Anaconda to be bought in reasonable time at all makes the cheaper half of the ships basically free. (And then, of course, carriers exist ... which makes most ships below the Anaconda basically free)
 
I've never understood why they never made PvP an engaging and meaningful role, it would have single handedly ended a vast majority of community conflicts in one go whilst vastly improving the game.

Instead of making bounty hunting with an intelligent criminal reporting network (updated when scanned for example to keep things spicy) and galnet news flashes and updates along with criminal/hunter infamy we got a stifling engineering arms race grindathon based on a secondary currency and a 6 year forum fight.
 
These approximate maximum prices offered by markets for the following commodities will be introduced
That's great news, as well as for combat. But please, try to make sure not to kill off pve piracy.

I don't think pve piracy has to be related to minerals, there's plenty of commodity that can be acquired only through pirating npcs, such as trinkets of hidden fortune, classified documents, technical blueprints, etc. Prices of those commodities can be balanced in a way to make pve piracy viable, without it being related to mining commodities.
 
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