ANNOUNCEMENT Game Balancing

The history of the development of the game: NPC farm was top - money was nerfed for NPC, farm of materials in pirate activities was top - activities were removed, opal farm was considered top - scanner was broken, painite farm became top - sale price was nerfed. Nice, very nice history. Good job. Souls like games style ))
 
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I wonder if the people moaning at mining being nerfed will also complain when combat is buffed so you can hopefully earn similar amounts by doing either. Let’s give FDev a month or two then see where we are.
Of course they will. Mining&whining is a playstyle many people adapted throughout they years, this thread shows perfectly that they have no interest in giving that up :D
 
My guy, you could read the post you're quoting where I explain at some length how the game starts out fun and why it becomes grindy later on. That's an option you have available to you :V
Yeah I read it and to be honest didn’t make much sense. Ships are the end game? Not as far as I can see. BGS, circumnavigating the Galaxy in their FC, cos they can, helping people who have run out of fuel, delivering a Hutton mug to every station in the galaxy, AX combat, whatever floats your boat. The rest was a confusing mish mash of assumptions and contradictions. Players accumulate a vast wealth such that rebuys are a trivial thing, but they can’t afford an A rated power plant! Eh?! How does that work exactly? Progress becomes exponentially harder? Not from where I am sitting. It becomes exponentially easier. Generating credits is easy, even without doing any 250m/hour Painite mining. Engineering the same. I get so many materials from just playing the game that gathering the rest takes a trivial amount of time and is a welcome change of pace from my normal activities. I have reached a point in the game where I don’t want any more of the toys. The ones I have do what I want and are fun to use. I could do the Fed rank and get a Corvette. It won’t do anything my existing ships can’t do. Sure it will make a soloing a high CZ easier, but that will take some of the challenge and the fun out of it. So I will come back to my original question. What is that you get from the big ships that makes the game more fun?
 
Hope you don't mind me asking. What difference does it make what ED did look like 150 years ago. We have 2020. I've purchased my game in 2020, I do not care what was/wasn't at the beginning of the game... Market has changed, you either play by new rules or you can pack up the business.
What it illustrates is that you can make an engaging game without giving the players lots of different toys to play with and that is still true in 2020. If it wasn’t true it would mean Star Citizen is a better game than ED and it isn’t!
 
With all do respect. Because you did it does not mean everyone should... I rather have ship built for exploration, Palin trip is only one little thing, I do exploration as my main play style. Flying T6 for that is very wrong thing to do... 5000ly in the ship with low jump range is no fun...
My point was: You don't need a fully engineered ship just to do a 5000Ly trip. You can do it in any ship.
I agree with you that there are better ships than a T6 for a journey like that, but a fresh player might not have the funds for a ship with a 50ly+ jump range. (to be fair, that trip in my T6 funded my AspX after that).
 
What is the minim game time required to generate meaningful progression?
Well, I am 500h+ and have some money, three ships: Cobra MK3, Python for mining (can be repurposed very soon), Krait Phantom for exploration. I have no need to go for any of the big ships as those are more hassle than fun so there is that. For me I am slowly getting to the point where I am seeing meaningful progression FOR ME not only in the amount of credits that is flowing to my bank... I have all the ranks, system permits, enough money to afford any ship in the game and kit it out to the reasonable level etc. HOWEVER I probably see progression in the different way to what you may consider meaningful...
 
Just going to throw in my opinion as a new player, been playing Elite for about two weeks. For a game that already has some major time sinks traveling in general and engineering material gathering come to mind. I don't understand why making credit earning more time consuming is necessary or healthy for the game. I am looking to eventually do endgame combat and I want to do it in a fully engineered Chieftan and Corvette. Even with watching all the videos and using the tips on the fastest way to gather materials it is going to take many, many hours of what I would call less than exciting game play to get them kitted. I also know neither ship is going to have great jump range or be cheap to rebuy. Jump range time sink can be solved with a fleet carrier which will require a ton of credits which already requires a ton of time. For myself mining double Painite hotspots (not mapped) with a Python I was earning around 150ish mill a hour. At that rate I was looking at 40+ hours of game play just to get the quality of life enhancement that is a fleet carrier. I understand that other income sources will be brought up to the new mining norm but still the rate at which I can earn credits will drop. I am really enjoying the game but as I work through the engineering grind and gathering credits to buy a Corvette and Carrier I am becoming increasingly concerned that the dev team does not see my time as valuable.
 
What is that you get from the big ships that makes the game more fun?
You get to feel like a badass who's almost unstoppable, that's what.

What is the minim game time required to generate meaningful progression?
That, on the other hand, is a much more interesting question, and while I don't have an exact number, it's somewhere in the ballpark anywhere from "a long time" to "weeks or even months of full-time effort".

No question, Elite Dangerous is a time sink, and I feel that was by design.
 
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Balancing this isn't easy, because some of the fundamentals are broken - the mining economy in particular, but to my mind that is just a symptom, not a cause, because they just have high prices. The problem is that the profit margins are ungodly.

The galactic average for Polymers is 308 credits. The profit margin on these, if sold to any of the top 25 prices as listed on EDDB is 2,793%, and 24 of 25 of those stations have demand that is higher than 250,000. Per ton the profit isn't that high - it's only 8,600 (ish) credits over galactic average, but compare it to gold (unmined). The highest profit you can make on gold is 4,250 (ish) credits, and you need to buy it at the cheapest place possible and sell at the highest place possible. And you need to make the money to even buy one ton of gold to start with.

We start the game with 1,000 credits. That buys you 3 tons of polymers at galactic average prices. Sell with a profit of 8,600 and you're one sale away from having 26,000 credits. D-rate everything, c-rate the FSD, sell your lasers (costs 21k, so you have 5k profit left) and fill the ship with cargo racks and do one more run. You're now carrying 12 tons and will make a profit of 103,000 credits.

Who wants to haul gold when you can haul plastic? Who's going to rob you of your precious plastics? No self respecting pirate will look at a haul of plastics and think "I'm having that!"

Buy a D-rated Hauler with a C-rated FSD for a one time run for a 176k run and upgrade to a mining Adder. Fill that with 8 tons of painite and get a nice 4 million credit for your troubles. Spend about 1.5M on a mining Type-6 with 64 tons of cargo space. Fill that up with mined painite for 32 million profit. Spend 30 million on a Type-7 painite miner that carries 224 tons for 112 million credits in profit. Spend 104 million on a Type-9 miner that can carry 640 tons and can net you 320+ million of profit with painite.

This can be done in less than 10 stops, not counting refuelling and finding a station to buy the ship and the right equipment.

We've gone from a Sidewinder to a Type-9, and barely spent any time in the Sidewinder, Hauler, Adder, Type-6 and Type-7 other than to fill the cargo hold once, a bit of mining and a bit of travel.

Now what? Where do you go from there? Anaconda and Beluga? They're more expensive, but since making money has essentially become the only focus of the game, why pay more money to make less money? The Corvette is more expensive but can't carry as much and thus makes less money. The Cutter gets close, but without dropping the shields, it's still hauling less stuff when mining. And those two need rank, which is just boring work anyway.

The only "upgrade" from this 6 stop progression is a fleet carrier. If you want to do something else, you now have the funds to do pretty much anything you want. The only thing you can't realistically do is PvP, because you haven't unlocked the engineers, but that's it. You have the funds to go toe to toe with anything else the game can throw at you, and you don't ever have to worry about funds.

It snowballs completely out of control and leaves those who haven't figured out how to do this so far behind that they think the game is rigged against them, while those who know will jump so far ahead that they never learn to appreciate any of the small ships.

To me, this is the root cause of the game's main problem. Progression has one of two paths - one that is slow and (to some boring) and one that jumps you to the end game almost immediately only to reveal the lack of an actual endgame.

Is this the game you want to promote? Is this the game you want us to buy? Is this the game you want to play?

To my mind, if this is the intention, then why not just start us all off with two billion credits and be done with it, because if the credit inflation isn't fixed, you might as well.
 
What the game really lacks are proper quests. And I'm not talking about rich readable text content. I'm talking about signing up for a mission that takes time to do, with many parts that can be filled with action, mystery, damn, even romance. Voice overs, cutscenes, proper plot. This Elite... this is just a sandbox filled with bland things. I've never, for once while playing the game, felt immersed in a mission. It all looks, and feels the same. Empty.
I have loved 3 kinds of space games:
Mass effect for the role play.
Wing commander for the missions and interactive story (Specially Heart of the Tiger) - (Except the "intercept cruise torpedoes mission". I hate that one!!)
And Freelancer, for the freedom and combat style.
I will render my heart to the game that finally melds these things together. Until now, Elite, is not one of them.
 
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Besides other things, I already suggested to fix the scanners so that you can find the type of mineral indicated by a hotspot at the hotspot rather than all kinds of minerals and none of the mineral the hotspot indicates. That is way more important than simply adjusting the selling prices of minerals.

You have to keep in mind that the normal player can not reasonably make money by mining. Fixing the scanners/hotspots could help a great deal to alleviate that. And what about the planetary mining machines that could be deployed on planets in Frontier (and made the game crash once you wanted to leave the system)? When are we getting those in ED (without the game crashing)?

I also suggested to automate mining. It's what sane people would do. How about that?

Really, just adjusting selling prices of minerals doesn't even begin to touch the surface ...

Please make all changes known in the newsletter, and please make a new thread for each change so it might become possible to keep track of what is being done.


PS: @Martin Schou

Where do you find that much Painite as you describe --- or any other particular mineral? Last time I was at a so-called Painite hotspot, I couldn't find any.

I don't think some kind of endgame is required --- and it's probably a bad idea to have one because once you're at the endgame, the game is almost over. There needs to be stuff that is fun to do so that I want to keep playing, and that is currently missing. Instead, I'm being put off by a lot of things and don't play anymore.
 
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ink some kind of endgame is required --- and it's probably a bad idea to have one because once you're at the endgame, the game is almost over. There needs to be stuff that is fun to do so that I want to keep playing, and that is currently missing. Instead, I'm being put off by a lot of things and don't play anymore.
There's a trick to that "end game" thing. It's called quests. Independent stories that a player/squad can sign up, and will carry him through a whole adventure. Frontier could make them, instead of stupid and vague plots to find a stranded mega-ship that rewards you with... text.
Imagine, playing Elite dangerous like a "firefly" tv series, where each time you had a new adventure to enjoy.
 
There's a trick to that "end game" thing. It's called quests. Independent stories that a player/squad can sign up, and will carry him through a whole adventure. Frontier could make them, instead of stupid and vague plots to find a stranded mega-ship that rewards you with... text.
Imagine, playing Elite dangerous like a "firefly" tv series, where each time you had a new adventure to enjoy.
Yes, and we should be able to create our own quests, without limiting them to some kind of endgame. Why not let players put in some content?

I do like passenger missions for the sightseeing, they are kinda like quests. Unfortunately, they pay very poorly, and strangely, they are all made such all the passengers at one place all go to different places. What's the point of cruise ships like the Beluga when you can't have passengers? And I already suggested that we should be able to make own cruises passengers can apply for ...

However, I'd like to see this thread --- or maybe a new one --- limited to the topic of adjusting mining. There isn't much point in overwhelming the willingness to change things. At least this thread shows, if they even look at it, that simply adjusting sales prices of minerals is totally pointless. It has been done before without making anything better and will probably only make things worse.
 
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