Game loses something by not forcing Open play

[murraypaul]

A lot of angry people at the thought over not being able to build up in solo play then gank on open.

I don't think I've seen a single person saying that.
The argument is quite simple: This is how the game works. It is how the game has always worked. It is how the game was designed to work. Why should you be able to force a change now?

Those players, if they go into open mode, the odds are, 90% of the time, it will be to take their upgraded combat ship to attack players.

All I can say is that these quote say a lot about your view of gaming, and the people you think are playing Elite.
If I come into Open, it will not be to attack other players.
And certainly not to 'gank' them, defined as unbalanced PvP where the other player has little or no chance.

 

[Zargor]

its funny , those wanted cmndrs list are in solo mode , so you can grind in safety to best ships and do mode hopping into open and then switch back when you like.

haha

And? Did I miss some sort of race going on or something? Who cares how people obtain their ships.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Solo and group players not only put the whole community at risk, they're also the cause of their own fears.

(Some) open players not only put the whole community at risk, they're also the cause of their own fears.

Why is it so hard to all play together?

.... because of the players whose play-style requires unwilling targets to gain any satisfaction from the game.

 

[JamieM]

I'm a trader/explorer and I agree with the OP, Solo play should be separate from Open Play.

 

[Sargon]

I'm a trader/explorer and I agree with the OP, Solo play should be separate from Open Play.

OK. so what is the reasoning behind your preference? I'm honestly curious because anyone can easily fly out into the darkness, find a remote corner, and do exactly the same thing as in Solo Mode.

 

[StayFrosty]

There might be some hope for "bringing the two sides together" if more players championing All Online mode understood what was possible with this game, and what isn't possible, including the technical side that limits certain options. Instead, every single thread like this gets sidetracked with complaints about how it lacks EvE-like features of economy influence, territorial control, and a single online PvP mode -- things that not even other popular MMO's like WoW have. And it just throws a smokescreen over the whole conversation.

It's hard to discuss what might be ways to attract more people into All Online, while people keep insisting that it work like a different game design. That's why we're all talking past each other. The fact that we're two weeks away from official release might be a hint that what we're playing *is* the game. Some things will get further development. The basic design, including things like instancing and mode switching, isn't going to change as far as I can see.

You know, there are things I didn't get exactly the way I wanted them in this game either, like hyperlink discovery and a more challenging flight model. It's okay, I'll find a way to have fun in the game anyway. The people who expected this to be EvE with joysticks, are going to have to find that somewhere else.

As I see it, ways to attract people to all play together are already there, they only need to open their eyes and see how things are, my post above explains quite clearly why avoiding PvP is laughable when those seeking it can't even do it. What remains are things THEY need to do, and we won't be able to do it without them, for they will be the cause of it.

And that's what's the most problematic to me, as it threatens the community as a whole, and the game along with it. It seems to be a small thing, but it happened countless times before with countless MMOs. As it stands, Open play is likely to turn into a PvP mode, even though few really want that, and it's the kind of thing that could have me consider playing solo, despite championing open play. That's how bad it is, and it's not just vague theories, I've seen it happen many times before, and it has become very predictable. The only unknown is player demographics, I have no idea how many people play in open, groups and solo, and I might just be worrying for nothing. But still, I can certainly realize that there aren't enough players in open play.

 

[Luciuss]

+1

from me. Solo play and open should be seperated.

 

[Darzil]

The only way you're going to entice traders not to play in solo mode and risk being ganked is to increase the reward vs risk for trading in open by much larger profit margins for open play. If they biased the sell\buy prices by 20% (20% more to buy, and 20% less offered on purchase) on open vs solo you may find more traders willing to take the risk of open play.

At the moment the risk is not worth it for traders. Who wants to enter combat against a tooled up eagle/cobra/viper in a Hauler or Lakon kitted out for cargo running when they don't have to.

As a trader/explorer in open I'd support this, though quite honestly, with what I've encountered, a 1% bias would be too much.

Quite honestly the variation in playtime and trading luck is going to be wayyyyy larger than the variation between profit in solo and open. I wonder if those who feel that Open is so much harder than Solo have played Open. (In open I've lost one (unshielded) hauler to PvE combat, and killed no ships in the time it's taken me to get a Cobra/Surface Scanner and explore > 100 systems)

 

[StayFrosty]

(Some) open players not only put the whole community at risk, they're also the cause of their own fears.

And who are they?

Still, I don't really see how they could do this, considering they're still playing in open. Unless we're talking about things like cheating, I don't think they could be doing anything wrong aside from playing the game. The only problem with it could be the way they change the balance, but it's not like they'd have to leave, it's only that more have to join.

.... because of the players whose play-style requires unwilling targets to gain any satisfaction from the game.

You mean like NPCs can? That's not a problem with PvP, that's a problem with the game as a whole. No matter how hard you fight that idea, PvE and PvP are still essentially the same thing.

 

[Sargon]

I think once the game is fleshed out and system conflicts are implemented, player participation will attract pilots to online play.

Not only will the typical 'star fighter' be attracted in the hunt for human targets, but also the trader will find profitable exchanges when supply and demand is affected due to blockades, politics and the shifting of which faction controls what.

I think it's way too early to have fears about how things will evolve since we haven't gotten a taste of the mechanics to be implemented that will affect and be affected by player actions, as David Braben has planned.
Frankly, people worry way too much far too early.

 

[JamieM]

OK. so what is the reasoning behind your preference. I'm honestly curious because anyone can easily fly out into the darkness, find a remote corner, and do exactly the same thing as in Solo Mode.

The only reason why I play solo play is because some docking stations are full and do not become empty, and with limited time on missions its pointless to lose rep/money.

Why do I think they should be separate?

It's far easier to progress in solo mode... Your argument that you could go off and hide in a distant corner for trading that's great but that doesn't remove the risk of interacting with other players (good or bad).

It's not just pirating its the case that you could have costly of cargo and a maniac in a cobra/sidewinder dashing through the star port entrance at the same time, you won't get any of the fun which other players bring.

 

[murraypaul]

Playing with other people, because it's an online game, and that's what online games are about.

It wasn't meant to be an online-only game, that has only happened recently. The game I bought promised an offline mode, if they had delivered it, I'd be playing it.
That is a basic misunderstanding. It can be a multiplayer game. It can be a single-player game. That is a fundamental design decision.

Telling someone "I don't want to play with you" is quite possibly the most insulting thing you can do in an online game, even worse than griefing.

There are several posters here that I do not want to play with. If that insults them, tough.

The impossibility of merging solo activities with group activities, because there's something about a "solo" activity in an "online game" not being right in the first place.

See above.

Learning from 30 years of multiplayer games, that taught us a community needs a healthy balance of all roles, and that includes PvP. Don't think everyone that wants to play in open wants to actually participate in PvP activities, most simply realize this balance is needed, and as such, there are plenty PvE enthusiasts who want PvPers around them.

I don't think that is what experience of multiplayer games, and MMOs especially, has taught us.
I think it has taught us that:
- Most MMOs make PvP optional in one way or another, either by splitting PvP and non-PvP worlds, by specific PvP arenas, or by a PvP flag.
- Solo (either exclusively or normally) players are now a distinct audience that MMO developers are reaching out to.

But most anti-PvP zealots don't understand that a game subjects you to rules, nor that multiplayer comes with compromises, and they reject both simply because it doesn't put them in control. This breaks the entire nature of multiplayer and has far more negative aspect for the majority than any amount of griefing.

And you are missing that from the outset, the game was designed with multiplayer being optional.

When PvP comes with such heavy consequences designed specifically to please anti-PvP crowds aswell as fully integrate PvP as a part of the game.

What consequences? A bounty that probably amounts to less than fuel costs? That can simply be paid off at the nearest station?
There is no effective NPC/system response to balance PvP, and the bounties are a joke.
An interdiction system whereby the interdictor gets to size up the interdictee before deciding whether to fight or not, and can simply walk away from any fight they might lose? Where the interdictee cannot fire first without themselves becoming Wanted?

 

[Sargon]

It's not just pirating its the case that you could have costly of cargo and a maniac in a cobra/sidewinder dashing through the star port entrance at the same time, you won't get any of the fun which other players bring.

I've been killed by 'untalented' NPC pilots ramming me... the danger is always there.
I've been delayed by NPC ships... since we aren't seeing the level of eventual traffic, here's no foundation to deem that online play will be any more or less busy.

 

[Robert Maynard]

And who are they?

Still, I don't really see how they could do this, considering they're still playing in open. Unless we're talking about things like cheating, I don't think they could be doing anything wrong aside from playing the game. The only problem with it could be the way they change the balance, but it's not like they'd have to leave, it's only that more have to join.

.... so, players who want to be able to play in solo and private groups are going to be the downfall of the game and players who use the "I can do it so I will do it" play-style justification are in no way accountable for discouraging less pugnacious players from playing in open?

You mean like NPCs can? That's not a problem with PvP, that's a problem with the game as a whole. No matter how hard you fight that idea, PvE and PvP are still essentially the same thing.

NPCs cannot take satisfaction. NPCs do not pass over more suitable targets just to target a player.

 

[Miklos Atreides]

...
Why is it so hard to all play together?

You got the point in this one question.
I want to play together not against any other. The core of the problem is that 3% are playing against the others treating everyone as an enemy who needs to be transformed to nuclear dust.
I prefer solo mode because hitting one of those type of players can ruine a week of playing easily.
My time is rare, so I want to have fun and not get annoyed from a tiny minority which isn't able to play together.

Regards,
Miklos

 

[murraypaul]

Oh so the third point still applies to you:That's still not a fundamental difference, especially when you consider both players and NPCs use the same ships, the same equipment, and do the same things... they're definitely more similar than different. And I haven't read many stories of griefing that weren't exagerated, fixed since the introduction of the fine/bounty system, nor weren't the responsibility of the one thinking he got griefed.

Are there NPCs sitting in SOL in a pimped-up Cobra interdicting every Sidewinder and Hauler they see?
The Bounty system is a joke. Fuel costs are higher. And the bounty for collecting USS cargo containers is 10x times that for murder.

 

[Sargon]

What consequences? A bounty that probably amounts to less than fuel costs? That can simply be paid off at the nearest station?
There is no effective NPC/system response to balance PvP, and the bounties are a joke.
An interdiction system whereby the interdictor gets to size up the interdictee before deciding whether to fight or not, and can simply walk away from any fight they might lose? Where the interdictee cannot fire first without themselves becoming Wanted?

Now there is a very valid point... Murder should be punished much more severely... Balance is wanting at the moment, for sure.

 

[MrHatMan]

I would be quite happy with the removal of "Solo play" if proper PVE is introduced, with an optional PVP flag, or alternately EVE like high-security systems where PVP is only possibly between at-war groups and any other PVP action is immediate kill rights to anyone else and/or instant and unavoidable death due to local police force.

I play Solo because I "choose" to not want to PVP. If I ever want to PVP I should be able to choose when to put myself in that situation, and not let someone else choose for me and until I get to choose, I will continue to play Solo, and/or PVE only private groups.

PS: Yes, I know Elite is not EVE, nor do I want it to *be* EVE, but don't reject an idea for discussion just because it's from a game you don't like.

 

[Cmdr Irenicus]

Why is it so hard to all play together?

Simply put because there are absolutely no advantages in doing so. None. There are but disadvantages to playing in Open play.

The opposite is true for Solo play. No disadvantages over Open, nothing but advantages. Simple.
So if you want to play Open because you don't mind the above, then fine.
The rest of us will be enjoying Solo play thanks.

 

[Tyr07]

I don't think I've seen a single person saying that.
The argument is quite simple: This is how the game works. It is how the game has always worked. It is how the game was designed to work. Why should you be able to force a change now?



All I can say is that these quote say a lot about your view of gaming, and the people you think are playing Elite.
If I come into Open, it will not be to attack other players.
And certainly not to 'gank' them, defined as unbalanced PvP where the other player has little or no chance.

So you're saying you're going to trade always in solo mode, to be safe as I commenting about those players specifically?

Okay, enlighten me then, I'm serious, not being sarcastic. If you fall into that category, why would you enter into open mode? I notice you didn't post as to why. So if right now, you don't, because you don't have a reason to, but you're saying if you did, you wouldn't it for that reason, then at the moment, you're just someone who doesn't go into open mode, which no offense, makes your information invalid.

You're right tho, I haven't seen someone say "I am angry at the thought of not being able to build up in solo then play on open" however it can be derived over their protest over the idea of solo mode and open mode having separate progression.