Glowing Green Giants - The Definitive List

[CMDR Neurum]

So do these things have a pattern of where they appear. It seems to be totally random, some near the center, some near the bubble. Has anyone noticed a pattern yet?

 

[Starsong]

So do these things have a pattern of where they appear. It seems to be totally random, some near the center, some near the bubble. Has anyone noticed a pattern yet?

No - there doesn't seem to be any pattern, or at least not one we could find with as few discovered as there is now.

 

[Babaa Yaga]

Yes there is a pattern...TOTALLY RANDOM. There are couple of commanders here on this thread that did some next level analysis on the current data and didn't come up with anything conclusive. If you are going to go out and join the search, I wish you luck and o7.

 

[Deleted member 38366]

After reviewing all Data again a few Days ago, I did notice a distinct pattern.... However (BIG however!) I have nothing to show for it until I can prove that my theory is correct.

It'll take me months easily but for what it's worth, I'm on it
(and if I'm unsuccessful, no harm done... that'd only mean I keep/kept doing what I'm already doing since 5 months)

 

[Starsong]

After reviewing all Data again a few Days ago, I did notice a distinct pattern.... However (BIG however!) I have nothing to show for it until I can prove that my theory is correct.
What’s your theory? Having multiple people test it could be useful.
It'll take me months easily but for what it's worth, I'm on it
(and if I'm unsuccessful, no harm done... that'd only mean I keep/kept doing what I'm already doing since 5 months)

What's your theory? Having multiple people test it could be useful.

 

[Deleted member 38366]

What's your theory? Having multiple people test it could be useful.

In due time.... For now. give me some time to see it I'm onto something or not in the 1st place.
I also still need to refine my Analysis and build some tables of data. More homework for me so to speak.

 

[Deleted member 38366]

Alright, I reviewed, analyzed and refined all Data to my best abilities and this is the Theory I came up with (Warning : long post, conclusion at bottom) :

Background :
I checked the Data and my eyes catched what looked like two distinct Medians building up on the Y Coordinates of the GGG Systems.
After sorting all GGGs by Y Elevation and limiting it to the 1280LY dimension of the Sectors directly above/below the plane, a Median above the Galactic plane shows at around 249LY and below the Galactic plane at -220LY elevation.

( http://www.falconfly.de/temp/ELITE-GGG_elevation.gif )

Then I took a step back and looked at the entire Galaxy as a ProcGen entity - made of math that creates Cubes - Boxels.
With the central dividing line at -25LY elevation separating Sectors and its 1280 x 1280 x 1280 Cubes that form and house all the Sectors.
In my imagination, I visualized these Boxels being filled by ProcGen like Fibonacci curves and fractal trees circling out of their centers in 3D and populating (seeding out) the Sectors with all the smaller subdivisions the resulting smaller families of Boxels.
( Details found in this excellent post : https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threads/rv-sonnenkreis-decoding-universal-cartographics.196297/ )

Now my basis was that the ProcGen had to generate all its Variables that create a System - one of these Variables ultimately decides that a Gas Giant turns out as Glowing/Green - would have to require the mathematical requirements to set in. The Pattern everyone is looking for.

As my own Carrier is currently in a place of very outermost corners where 4 adjacent Sectors meet, I realized again how boring those Systems typically were and how much variation I was missing.
I call those "limit-up edge cases" of Stellar Forge "under-seeded". A visible and notable lack of variation - IMHO due to increasing lack of variables that could still seed out a complete System with everything typical Explorers see elsewhere.
I do remember some Explorers say that they like such areas and find them interesting - but strangely this always went totally against my very own experience.
Even ELWs or Ammonia Worlds were far less common in such borderline areas and an above-average amount of Systems barely contained one or more stars - but no bodies at all.
Sector names such as EORM SCREIA EG-Y C12 instead of i.e. C12-46 (indicating a C12-0 upto at least C12-46 is present with likely headroom to more at a higher count) were often a dead giveaway for such a condition for all I can tell.

With that in mind, I revisited all the GGG Data and wondered :

• do GGGs exist in such "under-seeded" areas at all?
• if not, where in the 1280LY Sector Cubes would the Procgen enter or pass a phase where sufficient variables and RNG potential exists to create the conditions for a GGG?

Analysis :
I found out that only one GGG was in such a System, Pheia Aewsy LV-Y d11. All the others were in "normal" Systems. 1 out of 27 - at least it was possible but apparently very uncommon.

After verifying the Coordinates from the documented GGGs, it appeared that many were "Sector edge cases" at least to some extent and are generally tending towards the outer areas of every Sector.

I rechecked with ED Astrometrics - and indeed the 2D representation already indicated that appeared to be the case.

( http://www.falconfly.de/temp/ELITE-GGG_edge.jpg )

So imagining any Sector like a 1280x1280x1280 LY cube and seeing most GGGs being located a bit "obfuscated in the outer rim" as opposed to being in their very center, I measured and verified the raw Data on every single one.

( http://www.falconfly.de/temp/ELITE-GGG_deltas.gif )

Explanation of terms :
- Sector Delta defined as the distance (LY) of a known GGG to the nearest adjacent other Sector, per given X, Y and Z Coordinates

• a Sector Delta of 1LY would mean it resides at the outermost part of its own Sector in that axis, a Delta of 640 LY would indicate it resides at the exact center of the Sector (1280x1280x1280) in that axis
• X/Y/Z Deviation is a Percentage based on that Sector Delta, given per axis. A Deviation of 0% would indicate the GGG was located in the exact center of the 1280LY Sector in its respective axis, a Deviation of 99% would indicate the GGG was located at the outermost part of its Sector for that axis

The preliminary data indicated that most GGGs appear to reside far more likely in the outer parts of a Sector (in at least one of the X, Y or Z axes).
That's the Pattern I saw and intended to confirm with the goal to reduce Search Volumes and increase GGG Discovery effectiveness.

The numbers confirm this, everything in red indicates a Deviation of 50% or more.
This indicates that these GGGs in that X, Y or Z axis are all located in the outer quarter of the entire Sector (= within 320LY of its own outer Sector boundary).

As a result, I'd say :

• searching for a GGG is best done in the outer 320LY shell of the 1280x1280x1280LY Sectors
• searching for a GGG seems not suitable anywhere near the 3D center of a Sector in its 1280x1280x1280 cube, as none was ever found in such a location

As a reminder, the Y axis has only a few fixed separators that divides Sectors vertically :
3815
2535
1255
-25
-1305
-2585
-3865

The majority of GGGs of Sectors right above & below the Galactic plane have been found within ~234LY of the the central -25LY Y Elevation Sector divider of the Galactic plane.
That nicely falls into the "stay within approx. 50% of Sector Boundaries" theory.
That'd define an optimized Search Volume of max. ~320LY distance from any adjacent Sector all inside the 1280LY cube and cover all except one GGG.
If one is to include 100% of all discovered GGGs, the single max. 47.5% Sector Deviation one would change this distance slightly to 336LY from Sector Boundaries to be on the safe side.

----------------------------
Conclusion (TL/DR) :

• so far, all GGGs were found within 336LY of a Sector boundary and at a considerable distance to the 3D Center of its own Sector
• hence, this outer shell of a Sector appears to offer an optimized Search Volume
• however, at this moment it's nothing more than a Theory

PS.
Little helper to determine the fixed Sector boundaries :

Spoiler

( http://www.falconfly.de/temp/ELITE-GGG_SectorBoundaries.gif )

 

[[VR] Merkir]

Alright, I reviewed, analyzed and refined all Data to my best abilities and this is the Theory I came up with (Warning : long post, conclusion at bottom) :

Background :
I checked the Data and my eyes catched what looked like two distinct Medians building up on the Y Coordinates of the GGG Systems.
After sorting all GGGs by Y Elevation and limiting it to the 1280LY dimension of the Sectors directly above/below the plane, a Median above the Galactic plane shows at around 249LY and below the Galactic plane at -220LY elevation.

( http://www.falconfly.de/temp/ELITE-GGG_elevation.gif )

Then I took a step back and looked at the entire Galaxy as a ProcGen entity - made of math that creates Cubes - Boxels.
With the central dividing line at -25LY elevation separating Sectors and its 1280 x 1280 x 1280 Cubes that form and house all the Sectors.
In my imagination, I visualized these Boxels being filled by ProcGen like Fibonacci curves and fractal trees circling out of their centers in 3D and populating (seeding out) the Sectors with all the smaller subdivisions the resulting smaller families of Boxels.
( Details found in this excellent post : https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threads/rv-sonnenkreis-decoding-universal-cartographics.196297/ )

Now my basis was that the ProcGen had to generate all its Variables that create a System - one of these Variables ultimately decides that a Gas Giant turns out as Glowing/Green - would have to require the mathematical requirements to set in. The Pattern everyone is looking for.

As my own Carrier is currently in the very outermost corners where 4 adjacent Sectors meet, I realized again how boring those Systems typically were and how much variation I was missing.
I call those "limit-up edge cases" of Stellar Forge "under-seeded". A visible and notable lack of variation - IMHO due to increasing lack of variables that could still seed out a complete System with everything typical Explorers see elsewhere.
I do remember some Explorers say that they like such areas and find them interesting - but strangely this always went totally against my very own experience.
Even ELWs or Ammonia Worlds were far less common in such borderline areas and an above-average amount of Systems barely contained one or more stars - but no bodies at all.
Sector names such as EORM SCREIA EG-Y C12 instead of i.e. C12-46 (indicating a C12-0 upto at least C12-46 is present with likely headroom to more at a higher count) were often a dead giveaway for such a condition for all I can tell.

With that in mind, I revisited all the GGG Data and wondered :

• do GGGs exist in such "under-seeded" areas at all?
• if not, where in the 1280LY Sector Cubes would the Procgen enter or pass a phase where sufficient variables and RNG potential exists to create the conditions for a GGG?

Analysis :
I found out that only one GGG was in such a System, Pheia Aewsy LV-Y d11. All the others were in "normal" Systems. 1 out of 27 - at least it was possible but apparently very uncommon.

After verifying the Coordinates from the documented GGGs, it appeared that many were "Sector edge cases" at least to some extent and are generally tending towards the outer areas of every Sector.

I rechecked with ED Astrometrics - and indeed the 2D representation already indicated that appeared to be the case.

( http://www.falconfly.de/temp/ELITE-GGG_edge.jpg )

So imagining any Sector like a 1280x1280x1280 LY cube and seeing most GGGs being located a bit "obfuscated in the outer rim" as opposed to being in their very center, I measured and verified the raw Data on every single one.

( http://www.falconfly.de/temp/ELITE-GGG_deltas.gif )

Explanation of terms :
- Sector Delta defined as the distance (LY) of a known GGG to the nearest adjacent other Sector, per given X, Y and Z Coordinates

• a Sector Delta of 1LY would mean it resides at the outermost part of its own Sector in that axis, a Delta of 640 LY would indicate it resides at the exact center of the Sector (1280x1280x1280) in that axis
• X/Y/Z Deviation is a Percentage based on that Sector Delta, given per axis. A Deviation of 0% would indicate the GGG was located in the exact center of the 1280LY Sector in its respective axis, a Deviation of 99% would indicate the GGG was located at the outermost part of its Sector for that axis

The preliminary data indicated that most GGGs appear to reside far more likely in the outer parts of a Sector (in at least one of the X, Y or Z axes).
That's the Pattern I saw and intended to confirm with the goal to reduce Search Volumes and increase GGG Discovery effectiveness.

The numbers confirm this, everything in red indicates a Deviation of 50% or more.
This indicates that these GGGs in that X, Y or Z axis are all located in the outer quarter of the entire Sector (= within 320LY of its own outer Sector boundary).

As a result, I'd say :

• searching for a GGG is best done in the outer 320LY shell of the 1280x1280x1280LY Sectors
• searching for a GGG seems not suitable anywhere near the 3D center of a Sector in its 1280x1280x1280 cube, as none was ever found in such a location

As a reminder, the Y axis has only a few fixed separators that divides Sectors vertically :
3815
2535
1255
-25
-1305
-2585
-3865

The majority of GGGs of Sectors right above & below the Galactic plane have been found within ~234LY of the the central -25LY Y Elevation Sector divider of the Galactic plane.
That nicely falls into the "stay within approx. 50% of Sector Boundaries" theory.
That'd define an optimized Search Volume of max. ~320LY distance from any adjacent Sector all inside the 1280LY cube and cover all except one GGG.
If one is to include 100% of all discovered GGGs, the single max. 47.5% Sector Deviation one would change this distance slightly to 336LY from Sector Boundaries to be on the safe side.

----------------------------
Conclusion (TL/DR) :

• so far, all GGGs were found within 336LY of a Sector boundary and at a considerable distance to the 3D Center of its own Sector
• hence, this outer shell of a Sector appears to offer an optimized Search Volume
• however, at this moment it's nothing more than a Theory

PS.
Little helper to determine the fixed Sector boundaries :

Spoiler

( http://www.falconfly.de/temp/ELITE-GGG_SectorBoundaries.gif )

Very nice work. Well done. While I haven't thought about it in any detail yet, I will point out that from what you're saying the volume of sector space within which all GGGs have been discovered so far is 77.4% of the total volume of the sector. While the sample set is quite small, this still may statistically significant. I suggest you look into that aspect.

 

[Deleted member 38366]

Very nice work. Well done. While I haven't thought about it in any detail yet, I will point out that from what you're saying the volume of sector space within which all GGGs have been discovered so far is 77.4% of the total volume of the sector. While the sample set is quite small, this still may statistically significant. I suggest you look into that aspect.

Unfortunately, that's true...
So even if fully valid and confirmed - it indeed means that the "optimized Search Volume" is still massive by all means and not a whole lot is saved.

For typical single CMDR efforts, this might be (100% speculative) a tad more useful when being applied to Sectors with low Star density - be it due to location in the Galaxy or a high Y Elevation above/below the Galactic plane. In terms of percentage gained, it'd remain the same - but be somewhat more doable or afford a more realistic sample rate.
At least that's my own plan right now more or less, as around here (Arcadian Stream) there's some 40000+ Systems per 100LY radius even at the optimized elevations near the Galactic plane. Pure numbers working very heavy against all effort.

Either way, GGGs certainly will remain an Alpha rare find.

PS.
That's a bit beyond my capabilities right now, but someone with better Statistical skills might possibly work out some further optimization based on those findings.
I also have hope that maybe more samples could eventually afford to build something like a "Goldilocks zone" within that still-too-large outer shell volume of the Sectors.

 

[marx]

No - there doesn't seem to be any pattern, or at least not one we could find with as few discovered as there is now.

They don't appear to be completely random: for example, roughly two-thirds of GGGs have been found in systems with a single star, one-third in multiple-star systems. Other such conclusions can be drawn, but the catch is that with the total sample size of only 27, once could easily slap in ten different ones and obliterate any conclusion. For example, if the next ten GGGs discovered were all in multiple star systems, then that pattern would be gone, and the distribution of GGGs (in that aspect) would match the distribution of all systems.

Be it as it may, the chances of finding a GGG appear to be so low that one would likely be better off going for speed, not for filtering. You could look at your destination systems on the galaxy map and see if they are single stars, or you could just set a star class filter and blaze along, visiting, say, 5 systems in that time instead of 2 cherry-picked ones.


@FalconFly : that's pretty interesting, and well done! One more thing that might be worth considering: take a look at the GMP POIs. To me, it looks like the majority of them are nearer to sector boundaries. Perhaps a side effect of how people travel over the galaxy?

 

[Deleted member 38366]

@FalconFly : that's pretty interesting, and well done! One more thing that might be worth considering: take a look at the GMP POIs. To me, it looks like the majority of them are nearer to sector boundaries. Perhaps a side effect of how people travel over the galaxy?

I generally ignore the GMP and never use it (earned by their own actions).

However, the sheer variation of User-generated POIs and the many different types to me make it look like very "muddy waters".
A broad collection of things simply isn't what we're looking for (GGG focus in mind), although I generally agree that they could easily follow similar patterns of "where does rare stuff appear in Sector Cubes".

If they're interested in analyzing specific POI types, they can launch an independent investigation but I will not cooperate with nor support.them under any conditions.

 

[scopelx]

@FalconFly : that's pretty interesting, and well done! One more thing that might be worth considering: take a look at the GMP POIs. To me, it looks like the majority of them are nearer to sector boundaries. Perhaps a side effect of how people travel over the galaxy?

Marx's point is my biggest hiccup in trying to draw much in the way of conclusions given the small dataset. It's possible that sector edge idea holds which would be interesting. But it's also possible that the known locations of GGGs is more a reflection of where people go rather than something more fundamental about where they spawn.

 

[Deleted member 38366]

Marx's point is my biggest hiccup in trying to draw much in the way of conclusions given the small dataset. It's possible that sector edge idea holds which would be interesting. But it's also possible that the known locations of GGGs is more a reflection of where people go rather than something more fundamental about where they spawn.

I'd likely agree - however the distribution is scattered across the Galaxy. They have been discovered both in or near well-treaded Tourist Routes - but also in quite remote and isolated locations of low Exploration density, all while sharing similar characteristics.
That gives me sufficient confidence that the distribution rate is sufficient to rule that out to some extent.
On top, Sector edges as of the last 6 years aren't typical "Explorer Highlights" for all I can tell, there's no such Exploration meta as far as I know.
(likely exception : alot of travelers moving close to the Galactic plane, which IMHO is the main reason for so many samples close to that Y elevation)

However, the data set is indeed close to a minimum, meaning everything is still possible of course. That's what made the Analysis quite difficult so far and more samples would be extremely useful. Anyway, it's just an analysis based on those 27 samples... going against 400 Billion Systems. Very difficult terrain, to say the least.

 

[[VR] Merkir]

The other question you have to ask yourself is... why? Why would the developers of the procgen for GGGs decide that relative position within a sector should become one of the generator pdf parameters? Certainly they used some of the characteristics of the body itself like type, age, composition, temp, pressure, etc., and possibly much broader galaxy-wide location parameters (perhaps), but what possible reasoning could they have for making the outer shell of an individual sector more likely to contain a GGG?

 

[scopelx]

The other question you have to ask yourself is... why? Why would the developers of the procgen for GGGs decide that relative position within a sector should become one of the generator pdf parameters? Certainly they used some of the characteristics of the body itself like type, age, composition, temp, pressure, etc., and possibly much broader galaxy-wide location parameters (perhaps), but what possible reasoning could they have for making the outer shell of an individual sector more likely to contain a GGG?

I'm very much doubting it was a conscious effort, given that they were retroactively made canon. Given FalconFly's line of reasoning, whatever low probability procedural quirk of stellar forge math that results in this color rendering may only manifest itself in these kinds of locations. If I'm not misreading his idea

However, due to the fact that Fdev was able to make them canon it gives me hope that we could discern the variables that lead to their generation. If Fdev made so that they all get put into a certain codex discovery box, it means those variables weren't too opaque or convoluted for them to figure out why they show up like they do. Granted they have access to more information about GG color generation than we do

 

[Martin Shepard]

Just a noob question: how can I locate a sector edge?

 

[iain666]

Just a noob question: how can I locate a sector edge?

There's a by-sector galactic map linked from this thread: (3) Major Sector searchable map | Frontier Forums

 

[Shnyrik]

After sorting all GGGs by Y Elevation and limiting it to the 1280LY dimension of the Sectors directly above/below the plane, a Median above the Galactic plane shows at around 249LY and below the Galactic plane at -220LY elevation

Sorry, just thought: could this have connection to the layout of neutron layers?

 

[Deleted member 38366]

Sorry, just thought: could this have connection to the layout of neutron layers?

This might be an interesting question, so I started crunching some numbers on this.
It'll take me a few more hours to complete the correlation based on EDSM Data and see if there's any interesting stochastic pattern to it.

-- edit --

Can't see much to be honest, there's ones that are located in areas of higher Neutron Density - but also ones that are in low Neutron Density.
Thus I can't see any direct connection to Neutron Fields and GGGs.

The only thing I noticed was that most GGGs are within roughly 100-120LY of a Neutron Star, even in regions that only have few Neutrons around.
This distance only increases in areas were the Neutron Density is extremely low.

( http://www.falconfly.de/temp/ELITE-GGG_NeutronStars.gif )

• LY nnN = LY to next nearest Neutron Star
• N50/100/200/1000 = number of Neutron Stars within 50/100/200/1000 LY
• S50/100/200/1000 = number of Total (any) Stars within 50/100/200/1000 LY
• N/S(100) ratio = Percentage of Neutron Stars compared to Total Stars near (within 100LY) the GGG
• N/S(1k) ratio = Percentage of Neutron Stars compared to Total Stars in the broad area (within 1000LY) of the GGG

 

[EpicDragon7]

Does anyone have a screenshot of what GGGs look like on the FSS when fully zoomed in on it?