Goodbye Open til SCB issue is sorted

[YinYin]

Leaving with a bad taste in my mouth, given that we both know who should have won that duel!
How can you play in open normally? without loadout set up for PvP ie I've got KWS, limpet drone, heat sink, cargo racks, so one SCB and 2 chaff launchers along with the fact that other missions use up some of your defences..it makes the whole experience pretty depressing!

Basically, with PvP, who wins? the best pilot or the ship with the most internal compartments?..the game mechanic is truly awful in this respect, but, as I said..roll on 1.4.

Face it: you lost that. There is no who should have won. You lost.
If you want to get past a stack of shield cells you need to be more cunning than firing with normal ammo.
You need the best lasers or rail guns and add some unexpected ramming to take the shields down before a cell kicks in.
You are in the faster ship - it should work.
Also pack some torpedos to make quick work once the shields are gone instead of risking them getting up again having to repeat the process of bypassing the cells.
Everyone saying it ruins tactics or anything: I just showed you how it expands required tactics. There is no end all tactic and you may have to switch yours if you want to best certain tactics.

You ran and it was the right thing to do with how the fight evolved.

edit: and if you do keep playing open you should run again if you are not prepared to face an opponent with several shield cell banks - you can see the modules as sub targets after all. Skip the fight earlier.

 

[Jacob Marshall]

I can't see the purpose of SCBs.

A small boat vs a bigger boat has a dps penalty, while the bigger boat has stronger shields.
A big boat vs a smaller boat has to deal with the smaller boat's manoeuvrability.
Like-for-like boats, well that's down to skill and experience.

Seems balanced enough without SCBs.

Have I missed something?

 

[Jim Steinman]

SCBs are fine whether multiple or singular. It's nice hearing different opinions, but there's been nothing decisive either way in terms of reason just yet.

 

[SAB380]

I can't see the purpose of SCBs.

A small boat vs a bigger boat has a dps penalty, while the bigger boat has stronger shields.
A big boat vs a smaller boat has to deal with the smaller boat's manoeuvrability.
Like-for-like boats, well that's down to skill and experience.

Seems balanced enough without SCBs.

Have I missed something?

Agreed. I'm not even sure why they are a discussion point to 'better balance'.
Just get rid of them, they create a problem where one doesn't exist.
Shield strength + shield boosters + armor + bulkheads + countermeasure(chaff/ECM/PD) + lasers + ammo based guns + speed + agility = a ton of options and more than enough to create varied and interesting fights.

 

[Banjax]

sorry op, I'll stick with my carefully managed and used SCB's. I fly a war conda and there's only 3 reasons for me to attack you as a player. you're attacking new players for the hell of it, you fire upon me or you have a bounty that makes your demise worth my time. in all of these instances having multiple SCB's in parallel helps me eradicate you. and the great thing about them is you can fit them too, in fact everyone can. does it make me harder to take down, hopefully. am i invulnerable hell no. change your tactics.

I'm genuinely sorry if this flies in the face of your beliefs about SCB's but we all have our own style of play, I'm a brawler, but I've been taken down by people that got through my shield and out flew me. for a good pilot, SCB's are just delaying the inevitable.

 

[[HJ]-RedRaven]

Well, this isn't a rant, I have every confidence in Frontier realising that they have made a huge mistake with multiple SCBs and putting it right!
I was in open, playing the game as a multipurpose, bounty hunter, smuggler, assassin (chaff and SCB depleted slightly from previous cmdr who attacked me while I was dealing with an AI Python in a RES while doing a multiple pirate mission, not credit farming!).
Just doin my thang, in supercruise looking for WSS, when I scanned two cmdrs in a wing-enemy Empire in Fed territory, so throttled down (love a good fight with equal ships!), allowed them to interdict me..submitted, only the deadly Courier appeared and so began my tail of woe! Firstly, I hit my deploy landing gear instead of hardpoints, not a good start..so I can't even boost to turn..doh! Anyway, down to 1 ring on my shields before SCB gets me back up and running, now I'm ready for the dogfight. we start duelling and it's clear that I'm in the more agile ship..I'm getting on him first in every turn, he's got more chaff than the entire USAF, but no probs..just turned off targetting..got his shields down to 1 ring again and again and again, I'm now out of everything with a few hundred rounds of multi-cannon ammo left. How many SCBs has the Courier got? He gives up the dogfight tactic (good strategy..I'm not blaming the cmdr at all!) then starts reversing pummelling my shields, I catch him he boosts away rinse and repeat. Now he has 2 rings as I watch his shields regenerate for the 15th time and I'm down to critical..running out of ammo, I run. Leaving with a bad taste in my mouth, given that we both know who should have won that duel!
How can you play in open normally? without loadout set up for PvP ie I've got KWS, limpet drone, heat sink, cargo racks, so one SCB and 2 chaff launchers along with the fact that other missions use up some of your defences..it makes the whole experience pretty depressing!

Basically, with PvP, who wins? the best pilot or the ship with the most internal compartments?..the game mechanic is truly awful in this respect, but, as I said..roll on 1.4.

You were't prepared, entered the fight at a distinct disadvantage, while he exercised an obvious advantage (fresh ship and it was him controlling the fight, not you). You placed youself at risk, lost and had to bail out. Bad taste? That's just sour grapes imo.

Sounds reasonable to me... you could be seen to have cheated the other player out of a well-earned kill - he's had to dock and replace SCB cells. Not a lot of cost, but you sound like you got away with no armour or systems damage, so its not that bad.

Really, SCB's are not the problem... the 1MJ/sec recharge rate across the board for all ships is LAUGHABLE.
Different shields should
- have different charge rates,
- use differing amounts of power,
- respond differently to SCB charges
- different add-in modules should affect your shield operation (faster charge, sower charge but added shiled, resistance bonus modules etc..

ED's shield system is just a joke, but its not the fault of SCB's. thats just a symptom of the underlying problem (shields)...

Do the capital shps recharge at 1MJ/sec? Will the Federal Corvette? Ppfft.

 

[Dr Roly]

I think SCBs are good as they are. They make for some interesting choices when outfitting and add new tactical options in a fight.
-
In a 1v1 it's always going to be a slugging match, unless there's a great disparity in equipment or pilot skill. Remember, FD designed this game so that PvP engagements resulting in a ship kill are supposed to be the exception rather than the rule.
-
In a larger engagement, you can focus on one target and drop its shields before the SCB kicks in, but of course that leaves your wing men open. So, it forces a tactical decision, which is good.
-
If anything I'd like to see the heat and energy stats for SCBs and the "heavy" weapons tweaked so that you get 2 choices:
1) Fit several SCBs but limit weapons to Pulse, MC, Cannon etc
2) Don't fit SCBs but fit Beams, Rails, Plasma etc AND stats are tweaked so these weapons are MUCH more usable in PvP and give a much higher DPS than the guy using SCBs and Pulses.

 

[salad]

I always fight until they pop their first SCB, then I declare myself the winner and FSD away.

Say NO ​to shield potions!

 

[Kastor]

In a 1v1 it's always going to be a slugging match, unless there's a great disparity in equipment or pilot skill. Remember, FD designed this game so that PvP engagements resulting in a ship kill are supposed to be the exception rather than the rule.

Seriously. I'm sure you were part of the P-Beta crew.

Back before SCBs one on one dogfights were a thing of beauty. People actually tried to dodge out of arc. FD said they'd design this game to have WW2 dogfighting and they stuck to that promise, right up until SCBs were added.

 

[AveMe]

I think SCBs are good as they are. They make for some interesting choices when outfitting and add new tactical options in a fight.
-
In a 1v1 it's always going to be a slugging match, unless there's a great disparity in equipment or pilot skill. Remember, FD designed this game so that PvP engagements resulting in a ship kill are supposed to be the exception rather than the rule.
-
In a larger engagement, you can focus on one target and drop its shields before the SCB kicks in, but of course that leaves your wing men open. So, it forces a tactical decision, which is good.
-
If anything I'd like to see the heat and energy stats for SCBs and the "heavy" weapons tweaked so that you get 2 choices:
1) Fit several SCBs but limit weapons to Pulse, MC, Cannon etc
2) Don't fit SCBs but fit Beams, Rails, Plasma etc AND stats are tweaked so these weapons are MUCH more usable in PvP and give a much higher DPS than the guy using SCBs and Pulses.

What about FDL and vulture? they can't fit anything bigger than pulses because of power problems. They are combat ships and they can't fit more SCB, it makes them weak in combat.
Anyway pulse lasers are best weapons for PvP. Best damage per energy. Rails, beams and plasma are useless compared to pulses.


----------------------------------
Deleting SCBs will nerf BES ( bounty extraction side ) grinding. My python for BES has 4 SCBs ( about 20 Shield cell banks ). It's singleplayer game with option to attack another player and waste time ( and i think this waste of time and money is best ED experience ), so i think FD won't fix this.

 

[CMDR Crustatious Cornelius Pig]

Maybe quick charging the shields like this could cause damage equivalent to the overcharge rate, so if your shield held 50 units and you charged 60 ya shield would take 10% damage this coupled with the all fire at once deter the 'ooo I will have five SCB's to be indestructable' brigade. Would certainly deter me if my shield had 50 units and combined SCB's whacked in 150 ending up with no shields cause of over use would really make ya think.

I like this idea!! SCB's need to have a more dramatic downside, they ruin the dogfights you get into by being misused. Don't get me wrong, I love a challenge but skill is not really involved here.

 

[EUS]

It's hypocritical to hate the SCB, but have no problem with running 4-8 shield boosters.

 

[Banjax]

I like this idea!! SCB's need to have a more dramatic downside, they ruin the dogfights you get into by being misused. Don't get me wrong, I love a challenge but skill is not really involved here.

They do have a downside, try popping a bank of SCB's when your heat is near peak, and you're out of heat sinks, but if you don't pop them they're going to get through your shield. you over heat and it's module damage all round.

Also just a side note, but SCB's help you survive those wonderful instances where you're jumped by a wing of players, not just the 'honourable' 1v1 pvp'er.

This is a dangerous galaxy not an orderly one.

 

[catra]

I dunno why everyone's crying about with scb's? Take note in this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YiYkbQvhnUU

If you notice I the clipper have shields but my dear friend wutang does not. Now Why didn't the anaconda attack the higher threat? Oh I know why because his radar cant see him when hes over 1k in distance. This allowed him to go pew pew pew with rail guns with his rails and my combined ram's we killed a conda shield with ease. Second Take note an conda can have well over 1,500 mj of shields. That is alot damage to soak.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZ1QO63WXro
I now give you my dear ol friends Eron, and few others I cant recall. We stalked this poor python till we opened up on him he went poof. Why? cuz the dip boosted into a roid right as we engaged him. Guess what all but eron was shield-less.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mv2ipNQhg8Y
I give you an 3v4 fight we tricked and split their members enabling poor spica to die Take note Bollok is a an shield-less member. He was in the fight earlier but ran out ammo this fight laster well over 8 minutes. its a shame my shadow play was set for 8 mins. I run out ammo pretty much as well.sword fish and i line up for a quad ram and nail it perfectly causing that team member to wake out. in the end we nearly kill spica again with bollok's torpedos. this was the end of the fight.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvdBOg_dsaw
MY final video is na'qan an stealth viper vs cobra and asp. he blows up the asp the cobra runs. Notice once his shields drop he becomes stealthy. The shield is only there fore one reason. Something I wont tell because it is his strat.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQVFMzjshQE
one with a conda

I am sorry but with right strat's SCB are pointless. They really are. you can defeat them with stealth or ramming. I know I ram 100% the time its my goal is to hit you going over 400m faster I go more damage I will inflict. People will notice I myself carry 5 scb's I do makes me a very nice ramming clipper. the goal is for me to ram till you drop shields.

 

[Ism]

How can you play in open normally? without loadout set up for PvP ie I've got KWS, limpet drone, heat sink, cargo racks, so one SCB and 2 chaff launchers along with the fact that other missions use up some of your defences..it makes the whole experience pretty depressing!

You should outfit your ship for combat if you want to do PvP instead of complaining about the fellow that did when you lose the battle of attrition.
Regardless how many SCB's an opponent has, if you had taken down the opponent's shields before he recharged them we wouldn't be reading this post.

 

[goemon]

fitting a group of scb on a highly manouverable ship like a courier is a clever tactic, valid and well played.

but to all here, who are so pro to fit half a dozend scb on their python:

- i do understand, that flying a 130+ mio cr ship wants an insurance before the insurance screen. this is why i have fitted 1 scb on my python. it takes 18 secs to highwake out -

how does shieldbank-stacking make your game experience better?

 

[Privata]

The best pilot allways wins , IMHO

 

[Witcherman]

A more radical idea would be to dispense with the whole module specific slot concept and just have a single total slot limit where you could fit any combination of module classes upto that total limit. It would allow people to customise ships for different roles and thier play style much more. For example you could "millenium falcon" your asp (or whatever) by just fitting a honking great engine and not much else.

I like this idea!

 

[Waldi]

Been thinking about this and i kind of like the idea of 1 on/off all on/off or since they are a extremely high energy transfer/booster you could just triple the weight of them forcing people to consider the mass cost of them

 

[CaptainKremmen]

In my opinion, Shield Cell Banks did indeed mess up a dogfighting system that had been carefully balanced for months and months and months.


The first mention of Shield Cell Banks I can find is from around October 4, 2014... so probably Beta 2, which dropped on October 1st.

They landed without anyone asking for them, and immediately threw dogfighting into turmoil. The early banks could fit over ten cells per bank! The first time I tried SCB, I thought, "overpowered as hell", but I thought there was just one recharge. When someone at work told me there were thirteen cells per bank, usable instantly like quaffing health potions, I was horrified.


To put this into beta context, about a million posts were written about the FA Off Boost Speed Bleed mechanic, introduced in Standard Beta 1 (July 30th), and eventually reworked into what we see now in Beta 2 (October 1st). This speed issue was a Big Deal at the time, and a lot of testers had input and ideas to contribute.

The final Boost Speed Bleed mechanism was chosen, NOT because of "physics", "realism", "consistency" or any such thing. It was chosen because it was deemed the most positive contribution to dogfighting.


Then, ironically, in the very same Beta 1 patch update, Shield Cell Banks appeared.


FD spent enormous effort agonising over exactly how to fine-tune a precision flight mechanic so that players would get the most fluid, dynamic dogfighting experience possible in open space...

...and then slapped in a way to have FIFTY PLUS magic shield potions on call, thereby obviating the need to manoeuvre, think, prioritise targets or do anything other than press FIX SHIELD.


A later patch reduced the number of cells per bank. Still bad.

Cell costs got jacked up. Still bad.

Heat spike added. Still bad.

Delay added after button-press. Still bad.

Power usage increased. Still bad.


The common theme here... Shield Cell Banks were, and are, a bad idea.


To be fair, FD are closer to making them a tolerable bad idea than they have ever been. But it's taken nearly NINE MONTHS of messed-up dogfighting, both vs. NPCs and vs. Players.

FD could achieve a reasonably okayish outcome, I reckon, by making a newly switched on module charge up for a period, before it was usable. That would even FIT with what it's intended to be, and do - especially if it ate some SYS capacitance as it charged up.


I just don't get why SCBs weren't lumped in with Fuel Scoops and Shield Generators in the "max one item per ship" category.


Ah, well. Guess these things take time. But nine months, man? Nine months?