Goodbye Open til SCB issue is sorted

[znôrt]

this is the meta loadout means you have to choose to PvP....not let PvP happen naturally....

it means you have to pick your fights. pvp fight can't just mean fight and win as in pve combat. some players are focused on combat, even on pvp combat only. unlike you, they forfeit everything else, but are good at that one thing, they should be hard to crack. there will be fights for which your ship just isn't prepared and you should know when to bail out. it's part of the multiplayer fun, actually.

and that the SCB is the reason for this problem

yeah, as i tried to explain i don't see this as a problem ;-)

But when you have an Anaconda with 20+ of them <shrug> I fail to see how this is any fun for either side. The fight just comes down to who has the most SCB's OR who misfires theirs first. It's a battle of attrition over anything resembling flight skill or gunnery skills.

the whole point of the anaconda is being a tank. if two tanks clash together of course it's mostly a matter of brute force and resilience. and taking down a colossus like that in smaller vessels should still be possible but require a considerable amount of sweat - which it does.

 

[Banana's_Are_Good_For_You]

One dimensional shenanigans.

 

[Vecter]

FD could achieve a reasonably okayish outcome, I reckon, by making a newly switched on module charge up for a period, before it was usable. That would even FIT with what it's intended to be, and do - especially if it ate some SYS capacitance as it charged up.

That is so logical, I don't get why it isn't implemented in a game that want to be a simulation and not an arcade space game.

I just don't get why SCBs weren't lumped in with Fuel Scoops and Shield Generators in the "max one item per ship" category.

Me too, with the mechanic you propose, it will in a way change that too. That's why I like this idea.

Ah, well. Guess these things take time. But nine months, man? Nine months?

They will change the mechanic with the power plant in 1.4, so maybe "one day" they will change that too...

I'd be happiest with such a system if it was consistent in terms of "energy" sucked from SYS into SCB, then dumped into Shields. Right now, you can divert all the energy you like into SYS, but shields recharge at a fixed rate - a rate that scales, well, not at all.

Yeah I don't miss the dogfight in Eve (what dogfights?!?) but the different tanking mechanics, that I miss a lot. ED is a bit shallow on this part, it feels a bit arcadish.

 

[Space Fan]

A simple fix would be to make multiple SCBs in a ship behave like a single unit. If you switch on/off one of them they all switch on/off. I think this was the original intention of FD since all SCBs (if switched on) fire simultaneously.

That would, indeed, be a very elegant fix. Stack them, and you get a small advantage over having just one, but not much - diminishing returns. +1

 

[Psycho Romeo]

Uh, abuse? Please.

I think a lot of people who petition removing SCBs are doing so because they feel that they are being defeated. The reality of the situation is that this comes down to user error in the form of poor choice in picking fights and poor choice in weapon load out.

You were a more capable pilot. They were better equipped for battle. You lost. This is the end of the story. There's nothing wrong here.

A trader with more cargo bays will (typically) trade better than a trader without. A fighter with more SCBs will (typically) fight better than a fighter without. There is exactly nothing wrong with this.

 

[Space Fan]

absolute rubbish a good pilot makes use of the equipment he has and knows when to run and when to fight just because some players dont use the SCB that way dont mean they should be removed YOU choose your load out YOU choose when and where to fight it would be like me saying remove exploration because i dont do it

How is it 'like..saying remove exploration'? I don't get that. Exploration doesn't have anything to do with balance or PvP.

 

[Crimson Kaim]

Basically. The player with the most SCBs wins if done right. End of argument. SCBs = Guardian Angel. limiting them to one per module type or making them passive would make combat in ED pretty interesting!

 

[Psycho Romeo]

Basically. The player with the most SCBs wins if done right. End of argument. SCBs = Guardian Angel. limiting them to one per module type or making them passive would make combat in ED pretty interesting!

Basically. The player with the most cargo racks makes most profit if done right. End of argument. Cargo racks = Assured Profit. Limiting them to one per ship would make trading in ED pretty interesting!

 

[micky1984]

How is it 'like..saying remove exploration'? I don't get that. Exploration doesn't have anything to do with balance or PvP.

and saying remove specific equipment just because you dont use it the same as others do has nothing to do with balance

 

[micky1984]

people really do not get this game at all your free to equip what you like do what you like to whom ever you like as long as it doesnt involve a hack or cheat thats called freedom if these players had there way every ship would be exactly the same because they want BALANCE

 

[Nicodemus]

Stick the SCBs on a 10 minute recharge. It gives you the boost you need at the time you need it but forces you to realise it's only a temporary reprieve.

 

[torc]

Basically. The player with the mosD. cargo racks makes most profit if done right. End of argument. Cargo racks = Assured Profit. Limiting them to one per ship would make trading in ED pretty interesting!

This is really stupid...explorations or better cargo doesn't affect the lost of a ship or griefing for another player...FIGHT AND PVP is another thing. You can unbalance all the fighting in elite making weird decisions...and IMO SCB are a bad choice. Agreed...one per ship as thrusters or fuel scoop...nothing to add and say welcome back to tactics in ED

 

[Psycho Romeo]

This is really stupid...explorations or better cargo doesn't affect the lost of a ship or griefing for another player...FIGHT AND PVP is another thing. You can unbalance all the fighting in elite making weird decisions...and IMO SCB are a bad choice. Agreed...one per ship as thrusters or fuel scoop...nothing to add and say welcome back to tactics in ED

Two traders can be in competition with each other with a trade route. Whoever hauls more faster wins.
Two explorers can be in competition with each other with a first discovery bonus. Whoever scans first wins.
Two fighters can be in competition with each other with their lives. Whoever kills the other wins.

So one SCB per ship, as well as cargo rack, or scanner. Nothing to add, and say welcome back to forced equality in ED.

 

[david6768]

Well the only problem getting rid of SCB's are it would totally ruin all the multipurpose ships. Right now in a multi purpose ship you can equip cargo racks to be a trade ship or equip SCB's and a larger shields generator and make your multipurpose ship a combat ship. For those that want to argue how can a Python take out a FDL or Vulture I would argue that that a Python is a much more expensive ship to kit out and only when it is kitted out is it a real threat to either combat ship! Point is if you get rid or even limit SCB's to a number then you will not be able to multirole out the multipurpose ships so the Cobra, ASP, Python, and Anaconda just become a little better trade ships!

 

[torc]

Two traders can be in competition with each other with a trade route. Whoever hauls more faster wins.
Two explorers can be in competition with each other with a first discovery bonus. Whoever scans first wins.
Two fighters can be in competition with each other with their lives. Whoever kills the other wins.

So one SCB per ship, as well as cargo rack, or scanner. Nothing to add, and say welcome back to forced equality in ED.

Again...competition vs fight...this is really a different thing...as i said pvp should be based on skils, not in the amount of SCB. You continue with the wrong argument. If you don't wanna see the difference that's your problem

- - - Updated - - -

Well the only problem getting rid of SCB's are it would totally ruin all the multipurpose ships. Right now in a multi purpose ship you can equip cargo racks to be a trade ship or equip SCB's and a larger shields generator and make your multipurpose ship a combat ship. For those that want to argue how can a Python take out a FDL or Vulture I would argue that that a Python is a much more expensive ship to kit out and only when it is kitted out is it a real threat to either combat ship! Point is if you get rid or even limit SCB's to a number then you will not be able to multirole out the multipurpose ships so the Cobra, ASP, Python, and Anaconda just become a little better trade ships!

Good point...maybe one Scb per ship, but rebalance the class...a python Scb should be more powerful tha the one in a Vulture

 

[Psycho Romeo]

Again...competition vs fight...this is really a different thing...as i said pvp should be based on skils, not in the amount of SCB. You continue with the wrong argument. If you don't wanna see the difference that's your problem

It's a skill to choose a correct load out for the job. The most skilled man in the world armed with a rock is going to die against a two year old sucking on the trigger for a nuclear launch sequence.

You're telling me I can't see things when you yourself are being completely blind. If someone were skilled, they'd be able to look at the situation and say 'I am not prepared for this' and choose a different tactic other than to charge straight in to battle.

 

[Roybe]

Basically. The player with the most cargo racks makes most profit if done right. End of argument. Cargo racks = Assured Profit. Limiting them to one per ship would make trading in ED pretty interesting!

There is a serious problem arising within this game and I am interested in seeing how it will be resolved....basically, PvP is fighting a war where every battle turns most of the player base against it. Some of this is risk aversion...but more of it (IMHO) is the inherent lopsidedness of the proposition. The discussion we are currently having exacerbates this issue because those playing the rewarding part of the game cannot carry enough healing potions to play the game evenly with the PvP player.

Basically, you can play the game or you can PvP. Sometimes playing the game costs you assets. PvP is always a losing proposition, asset-wise....win or lose..attacker or attacked. All the player has to play for is the 'feels'. Fun for some...negative for most. However, players have a choice to remove this loss from their game. You can see the outcome of this...and where this part of the discussion would go...I suggest not going there. However, those that PvP will find themselves in a growing situation where they are in an increasingly target poor environment...and when CQC opens this will become a very large problem.

I wish the PvP players the best...honestly...I just do not see a positive future for these types of roles in the future. This is unfortunate and includes the idea that SCB's tip the scales to far from balance.

 

[mossfoot]

Two traders can be in competition with each other with a trade route. Whoever hauls more faster wins.
Two explorers can be in competition with each other with a first discovery bonus. Whoever scans first wins.
Two fighters can be in competition with each other with their lives. Whoever kills the other wins.

So one SCB per ship, as well as cargo rack, or scanner. Nothing to add, and say welcome back to forced equality in ED.

Difference - Multitasking Python vs Dedicated Cargo Python - is there an 14 times difference in the amount of cargo carried?

No?

Well, how about the fact that a dedicated PvP Python has 14 times the shield strength: (numbers crunched by Kremmen here: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=171185&page=29&p=2626537&viewfull=1#post2626537 )

So... (regarding a Python)

Base shield strength = 403MJ

Shield strength with boosters = 726MJ

Overall potential shield strenth, with a stack of Shield Cell Banks = 5576ML

That's nearly EIGHT TIMES the boosted shield strength, and nearly FOURTEEN TIMES the base shield strength!

If you were specifically out to fight other players, would you want your Python sporting only 2x base shield strength? No, that would be 1/7 of the above build. Or only 7x base shield strength? No... that would be only 1/2 of the above build.

Without wading into a Strong Signal Source looking for trouble, is there any NPC situation that can crack that Python build? No, not unless the pilot deliberately ignores sustained NPC attack.

I just think it's a shame that the capability exists to equip ships to a point where their potential "on tap" shielding is 13.8 times the best available shield generator.

Who also aptly explained what the end result of SCBs as they currently are will end up as: ( https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=171185&page=4&p=2620084#post2620084 )

To my mind, SCBs CREATE players exclusively focused on player-killing. Here's why...

Q: Do you think you might attack and try to kill another player?
NO -> Fit out a "non player killer" ship... which is basically anything other than carrying a full rack of SCBs.
YES -> Create a "player killer" ship - fit as many SCBs as possible.

Q: I'm flying a "non player killer ship". What should I do in this game?
A: Lots of stuff, except for fighting other players. I can dabble in exploration, smuggle, fight off NPC pirates, trade in rares or in regular goods, pirate NPCs, bounty hunt NPCs, etc. But stay the hell away from other players.

Q: I'm flying a "player killer" ship. What should I do in this game.
A: Kill players.

Q: I'm flying a player killer ship, but just got killed by another pilot in his player killer ship who had one more SCB than me. What should I do with the token 8t cargo rack I foolishly retained for "RP pirating" or picking up special things I come across?
A: Ditch the 8 tonnes of cargo space and fit another SCB, of course. Specialise more. Discard anything not absolutely focused on player killing.

Q: 95% of players just avoid me in my player-killer ship. The 5% that don't avoid me all fly player-killer ships in wings of 4, and kill me. What do I do?
A: Wing up with three other like-minded, fully specialised player-killer ship pilots.

Q: Me and my three friends wanted to have fun playing Elite, but all we do is fly around in a wing of player-killer ships, looking for other player-killers. This is getting really boring when there are no gudfites, which is most of the time. Why is this game boring?
A: Because you are flying in a specialised wing of player-killer ships in a game that is honestly not built around PvP gudfites, and your ships cannot do anything particularly well except kill other players. And if you DO get in a good fight, your shield cells are the key to victory... and you just used some up. So EVERY fight is quickly followed by a trip back to buy some more, before you are back to full player-killer effectiveness. God knows, you wouldn't want to meet other specialised player-killers with only 50% of your cells remaining.You're bored because your entire game has shrunk down to a very small and repetitive gameplay style, with a very limited loadout flexibility, probably in a small number of systems, and probably fighting against a very small number of like-minded, and similarly specialised, players.

Q: I'm getting seriously bored and frustrated now with Elite, in my 100% player-killer focused ship, with my 100% player-killer focused in-game friends. What's to stop me making life "interesting" and injecting some hilarious forum drama by just going ape, and killing every player I see?
A: Technically nothing. Don't forget to bait, goad and annoy people with comments about "salty tears", "care bears" and such. Perhaps some people will grow a pair and actually challenge you in battle if you kill enough Haulers, Sidewinders and Type 6 in systems where newer players congregate!

The last time we had this debate (SCBs Boil My Blood) nobody adequately was able to get around the logic of these two points, they just ignored it.

 

[Dillontheman]

hmm - someone said a long time ago, that PVP has come down to how many SCB's you can stack...

As far as outfitting goes it is. Clearly the only sensible way to outfit for PvP

 

[YinYin]

when CQC opens this will become a very large problem.

No, CQC will solve these problems as there are no financial penalties for loosing a CQC loaned ship in a set arena contest.

edit: why are so many in here ignoring the very skilled no shield hunters that take down other shields before the cells kick in? They seem much superior to 'the only sensible way to outfit for PvP'