Griefers make open impossible, and how easy the solution is.

[Good Whiskey]

Just a question to clarify something ...

I have never played Eve, looked at it, didn't like what I saw, didn't buy the game - so I have no experience in it. But it seems nearly every discussion concerning Elite is somehow compared to Eve because, what, they are both space games I guess.

So here is my questions - are there NPC's in Eve like we have in Elite? If not then every action in Eve is PvP, which in effect means people are comparing apples and tractors when comparing Eve and Elite.

The NPC opponents in EVE are your standard NPC opponents. Some are pirates. Some work for the major factions. Some are mission spawns.

But EVE is a PvP-centric game precisely because it is a massive single shard that is, for the most part, lawless. I think that's where the comparison comes in. I refer to it in PvP discussions for exactly this reason. It honors what "open" environments are all about by forcing adaptation. Elite does not force anything. It has PvP, but it is entirely optional - Solo, PGs, blocking, etc. - which is detrimental to the potential of its PvP culture.

I'm not saying that this is a bad thing, nor am I implying that EVE is better because it compels its players to be baptized in fire, but whereas problems arise from Elite's layers, those problems do not exist in EVE because there are no layers. There's just one universe. Do or die. Its corporations and alliances therefore develop rather sophisticated and unique cultures, because the shared experience promotes that in a big way.

Elite has this too, but it is segregated into very specific play styles. You can trade, explore, build stations and modules, and even focus on planetary operations in EVE, but always in an open multiplayer environment where who you know and how good you are at killing are always relevant factors.

 

[M00ka]

The NPC opponents in EVE are your standard NPC opponents. Some are pirates. Some work for the major factions. Some are mission spawns.

But EVE is a PvP-centric game precisely because it is a massive single shard that is, for the most part, lawless. I think that's where the comparison comes in. I refer to it in PvP discussions for exactly this reason. It honors what "open" environments are all about by forcing adaptation. Elite does not force anything. It has PvP, but it is entirely optional - Solo, PGs, blocking, etc. - which is detrimental to the potential of its PvP culture.

I'm not saying that this is a bad thing, nor am I implying that EVE is better because it compels its players to be baptized in fire, but whereas problems arise from Elite's layers, those problems do not exist in EVE because there are no layers. There's just one universe. Do or die. Its corporations and alliances therefore develop rather sophisticated and unique cultures, because the shared experience promotes that in a big way.

Elite has this too, but it is segregated into very specific play styles. You can trade, explore, build stations and modules, and even focus on planetary operations in EVE, but always in an open multiplayer environment where who you know and how good you are at killing are always relevant factors.

Thank you, that has clarified the question I had.

Having read your post I now believe you purchased the wrong game. You seem to be under the impression that ED should be a PvP centric game because there are players in it and thus, there must be conflict. Hate to be the bearer of bad news but I would surmise that only a very small percentage of players engage in PvP. Not because they don't have the skill, not because they are scared of the big tough PvP'ers - it is simply because they just aren't interested.

The current catch-phrase for this game is 'Take control of your own starship in a dangerous galaxy'. No where does it state you must interact with other players, no where does it state that the only way to play is by aggression. Take me for example, played thousands of hours, and yet I have never destroyed another Commander nor have I even been destroyed by another Commander. In fact the only interaction I have had is a handful of interdictions and they were more comical than dangerous. And before you say it, most of my playing time has been in Open I am just smart enough to change to Solo/PG if I am going to visit a known hotspot.

Also you seem to be under the impression everyone is actively and consciously working the BGS to their own goals. Again, the wrong assumption. In game, my Commander is an independent contractor, he takes missions from whomever is willing to pay. He doesn't care who is who, whether they are Imperial or Federal, whether the faction is an Anarchist. If the mission meets his own personal criteria he will take it. He has been known to transport Non-personal weapons and Body Armour to both sides in a civil war, deliver food to a station in famine without worrying about what 'side' they are on.

But I guess according to your vast knowledge of the game I am playing it wrong

 

[[VR] M4st0d0n]

Sometimes it feels like all the fanbois deceived by Eve Valkyrie just took ProsElyte Dangerous as their second choice for organic player interaction. At least we don't have time dilation when instancing at Shindez yet.

 

[Good Whiskey]

Thank you, that has clarified the question I had.

Having read your post I now believe you purchased the wrong game.

Then you didn't read my post. Nowhere did I say that I wanted Elite to be like EVE. If you had read my post, you would know that.

I'm not saying that this is a bad thing, nor am I implying that EVE is better because it compels its players to be baptized in fire, but whereas problems arise from Elite's layers, those problems do not exist in EVE because there are no layers. There's just one universe. Do or die. Its corporations and alliances therefore develop rather sophisticated and unique cultures, because the shared experience promotes that in a big way.

Can a person state some objective facts about a different game than this without immediately being told they've bought the wrong game? Seriously?

You seem to be under the impression that ED should be a PvP centric game

No I am not. You are simply reading into something that isn't there. I'm pointing out two different approaches to open multiplayer environments and the difficulties that arise from having multiple modes affect the game galaxy instead of there being only one mode that people have to live with.

You ask me about a game you've never played. I explain some differences between it and this one, and you immediately accuse me of a) having bought the wrong game, and b) wanting something for Elite that I don't. This isn't even a subtle semantic thing. I'm not lobbying for anything, but you claim that I am.

Very odd conversations I have here sometimes.

 

[Stigbob]

Just a question to clarify something ...

I have never played Eve, looked at it, didn't like what I saw, didn't buy the game - so I have no experience in it. But it seems nearly every discussion concerning Elite is somehow compared to Eve because, what, they are both space games I guess.

So here is my questions - are there NPC's in Eve like we have in Elite? If not then every action in Eve is PvP, which in effect means people are comparing apples and tractors when comparing Eve and Elite.

Its like a naff multiplayer version of Homeworld without proper 3d manoeuvring.

You could reskin EVE with tanks and grass and it wouldn't make much difference to how it plays.

 

[Good Whiskey]

You could reskin EVE with tanks and grass and it wouldn't make much difference to how it plays.

You really could. It's actually very "point and click".

 

[kdogg788]

I checked out what Eve was, and it looks like 3rd person point and click. Not the direct control of your ship that you have here. From what Ive read, its very pay to win, with money dominating the game and being in player alliances being a must have thing otherwise you wont last very long.

-k

 

[Good Whiskey]

I checked out what Eve was, and it looks like 3rd person point and click. Not the direct control of your ship that you have here. From what Ive read, its very pay to win, with money dominating the game and being in player alliances being a must have thing otherwise you wont last very long.

This is actually absolutely true. You can buy PLEX with real money, sell the PLEX in the game for ISK, and then use the ISK to buy anything you want. Now, you can't just buy the biggest ship right away if you have enough money like you can in Elite, because your character's skills increase with timers, not by actually doing things. But guess what? EVE has you covered there too, rich guy or gal, because there's a feature called Character Bazaar where you can literally buy characters that have been trained by other people for months or even years with... yes... currency you bought with real money. This is a thing in EVE. Its developers actively encourage players to scam one another, steal from one another, plot to overthrow one another, and so on. If you have enough money - real money - anything is yours.

It is, however, funny to watch someone who bought an expensive character and an expensive ship to go with that character lose everything immediately because they have absolutely no idea what they're doing. It's a cesspool, but it gave rise to some of the most influential player associations of all time.

One of the reasons I prefer Elite now is that this sort of single shard social engineering and blended economy has completely lost its appeal.

 

[Stinja]

I checked out what Eve was, and it looks like 3rd person point and click. Not the direct control of your ship that you have here.

You can also be (essentially) a middle manager, playing with spreadsheets: balancing books, optimising profits via ship scheduling and just-in-time manufacturing etc
At least what I've read about Eve.

The issue with OO ED is some do buy the game as FPS-Eve, and then try to change it to that once they find out it isn't.
Hence the occasional massive thread describing systems like entire lawless areas, a criminal super-organisation to rival the Pilots Federation, special weapons for rank with crimes etc etc.
But it's always only to benefit PvPers (and gankers and griefers) and not any of the less combat-focused playstyles.
They always feel very much like Eve players wanting to morph ED into their version of it.

When one sees an OO ED thread pop up, they can feel like chipping away to start the Eve transformation.

 

[Good Whiskey]

When one sees an OO ED thread pop up, they can feel like chipping away to start the Eve transformation.

I don't think that's entirely it. Sure it comes up, but there are plenty of other games that feature more robust PvP offerings and communities than Elite, which I'm pretty sure a decent number of people around here wish this game had. A better CQC with real rewards and customization in the true arena tradition. Content that specifically rewards PvPers for fighting other PvPers. But again, these things aren't in Elite primarily because of the way it handles multiplayer. Which is badly. Love the game, but it's true.

 

[Eliza]

My Semantese is pretty good too.


It objectively is, though. For one side of the equation.


If someone wants to beat me without ever seeing me, their vote clearly carries more weight.


Then why does it even have features like BGS/PP? I'll hazard a guess. Because people moaned until they got it, right? Should all of them simply have gone to another game, because Elite is an exploration and space trucking sim? This is where the message gets all tangled.

Afaik the bgs was designed to bring some sort of "economy" for the PvE-commanders, so that they have choices what to haul and who to hunt/fight. A lonely commander simply doesn't have the "power" to manipulate it severly. Yes, the bgs was intended to serve as-a background for a space-trucking-sim, indeed. What FDev forgot to count in is the social aspect of us commanders. With time we considered ourself dedicated to a MF. That was the starting-point when Pandoras-Box was opened. Then FDev foolishly (?) Decided to give us the opportunity to establish our "own" pmf. Then crap really hit the fan. The rest is bgs-history.

 

[Uvelius Sång]

The fight-mechanics are not to blame...they are great...the P2P-mechanics are the bottleneck that prevents us to do MASSIVE multiplayer.

Sorry, I wasn't precise there. The player interaction mechanics are what I meant.
Only maybe the core fighting mechanics wouldn't fit too well to Convoy mechanics, since ships may not be able to resist fire long enough or jump out too easily. But that's a core question of a fighter vs. a cruiser space sim, I guess.


As for the "hollow squares", I actually enjoy it knowing that there are other living beings around. So for me, the pros outweight the cons there.

 

[Eliza]

I would just like to add that Crime & Punishment is working as intended, and I hope at some point in these interesting 58 pages someone pointed out to the OP that the mechanics he/she is asking for already exist.

ZO

Mentioned it once or twice already?

 

[Linnunrata]

I checked out what Eve was, and it looks like 3rd person point and click. Not the direct control of your ship that you have here.

Yeah, obviously. That's how they can handle massive battles, because Eve is no simulator. You couldn't have hundreds of people actually flying their ships and shooting with weapons that required ED-grade fixed precision.

 

[Good Whiskey]

Yeah, obviously. That's how they can handle massive battles, because Eve is no simulator. You couldn't have hundreds of people actually flying their ships and shooting with weapons that required ED-grade fixed precision.

You can click around and navigate freely, but combat in that game is 90% positioning or orbiting at optimal range and managing modules. You turn them on and off, and you either live or die. I'm oversimplifying it, but at the same time, I'm not.

 

[Deleted member 182079]

This thread is certainly not making me warm up towards EVE

 

[Good Whiskey]

This thread is certainly not making me warm up towards EVE

It's an ungodly hellhole that rewards the worst demons that dwell within our eternally cursed souls.

It does have crafting, though.

 

[kdogg788]

It looks looks boring to me. Not my thing. I could care less about how the players acted.

-k

 

[Deleted member 182079]

couldn't

 

[CmdrKafka]

No it wouldn't.

You'd be jumping in to a system blind, essentially. Not being able to target backwards means you don't know what ship is following you until you're interdicted.
Meanwhile, the outlaws are sitting by the star, scanning anything that looks and acts like a CMDR, completely hidden amongst the NPC's.

no you wouldn’t be blind... for one thing, your bandwidth spike would warn you there’s others in the system (CTRL-B) and, all NPCs send canned messages before attempting to interdict (ie don’t try to get away... etc). In getting rid of the hollow box a few other tweaks might be needed, like showing it as hollow once an interdiction starts, or clearly labeling it as a player in comms if they send a message. I don’t say this solves griefing, it just removes the cross hairs off players that hollow boxes currently represent. Maybe take it a step further and make it impossible to differentiate a commander vs NPC at all, other than the bandwidth spike telling you someone might be there... you’d just be guessing based on the name