Griefers make open impossible, and how easy the solution is.

[Deleted member 110222]

True. Something concrete should be done about crime and punishment, though within realm of believability - where police is present, the reaction and consequences should be at least comparable to reality we have now.

But we should be looking for some way to punish other gankers, too. Perhaps a player-driven system where high-enough number of reports would send the player into solo for a week? Paired with a check that the player actually destroyed other players in a certain time (to prevent a whole another kind of ganking).

Stop.

This whole "Ban PvP players" campaign that's happening right now is stupid.

This is a game that features unsolicited PvP from Day 1.

It is a major selling point whether you like it or not.

If you don't want PvP you have been given two modes to abstain. One of those modes is identical in PvE co-op content. Winging in PG is literally no different to Open.

Please. Stop calling for banning people who play the game as advertised. Funny thing is that if that did happen... Well all those empty lawsuit threats? The ones from being banned for PvP would likely not be so empty.

Be very bloody careful what you wish for, as "good ideas" rarely are.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

TL;DR if you really want persistent NPCs (in terms of pilots of NPC ships similar to what we can fly) in a space setting then I would probably stick with games that are Solo without a shared universe state (e.g. X4) or player server multi-player (e.g. Freelancer) since there are a myriad of complications due to both the shared universe state and the MMO nature of ED.

If it is true that the reason we can't have any proper persistence or even simple NPC missions like in 30 year old games like xwing then I fear the cost of making ED the MMO that it is was too high .

That said - and I am no programmer so probably am wrong - I still don't see why SOME NPC's can't be tied to each person's account stored on their machine and spawn in their bubble. IF another player spawns in the same bubble then they would see them too (and possibly kill them) but they would not be persistent for that player.

 

[Ezren]

If it is true that the reason we can't have any proper persistence or even simple NPC missions like in 30 year old games like xwing then I fear the cost of making ED the MMO that it is was too high .

That said - and I am no programmer so probably am wrong - I still don't see why SOME NPC's can't be tied to each person's account stored on their machine and spawn in their bubble. IF another player spawns in the same bubble then they would see them too (and possibly kill them) but they would not be persistent for that player.

This sort of happens with mission NPCs.

What needs to happen is that Haz Res and Compromised Nav Beacons need to have some updates, or new locations (or specific system types) similar to them can be added to keep high-difficulty NPCs localized.

I was hoping Pirate Attack would be a state that did something similar, but.

 

[Cmdr Eratosthenes]

Of course there's going to be griefing in a game where there are literally no consequences for your actions, either for the griefer (self-explanatory) or even for the griefee (just a loss of ridiculously easy to acquire credits).

Duh.

 

[Azreh Helas]

There is one simple solution that doesn't involve banning anyone. Prepare for the open experience, bulk up your ship and learn how to high wake quickly.

In this game, past a certain amount of engineering escape becomes very easy.

 

[lenna]

Of course there's going to be griefing in a game where there are literally no consequences for your actions, either for the griefer (self-explanatory) or even for the griefee (just a loss of ridiculously easy to acquire credits).

Duh.

That depends on your personal game-play choices - credits are not that easy to acquire unless you engage in certain grindy exploits. The penalties for griefees (and the ganked) are certainly not that insignificant - 1 death could cost you hours (or more) of gameplay depending on the build and what you were doing at the time. The cost is not always just measured in credits - lost exploration data, failed missions. The only people that really lack any penalty of significance are the attackers.

 

[lenna]

There is one simple solution that doesn't involve banning anyone.

You are ignoring the fact that not everyone has access to engineering, there are still some base game hold-outs scattered around PLUS the "git gud" responses like yours are part of why I would not recommend Open mode to anyone - Mobius or other dedicated Private Group would be better.

There is nothing "reasonable" that FD can do to address the problems with Open that they have allowed to emerge (without alienating one section of the community or another) - it is too late to close that particular barn door.

 

[Ezren]

You are ignoring the fact that not everyone has access to engineering, there are still some base game hold-outs scattered around PLUS the "git gud" responses like yours are part of why I would not recommend Open mode to anyone - Mobius or other dedicated Private Group would be better.

There is nothing "reasonable" that FD can do to address the problems with Open that they have allowed to emerge (without alienating one section of the community or another) - it is too late to close that particular barn door.

People holding out on Horizons are really determined, it's like $4 right now.

 

[lenna]

If it is true that the reason we can't have any proper persistence or even simple NPC missions like in 30 year old games like xwing then I fear the cost of making ED the MMO that it is was too high .

That said - and I am no programmer so probably am wrong - I still don't see why SOME NPC's can't be tied to each person's account stored on their machine and spawn in their bubble. IF another player spawns in the same bubble then they would see them too (and possibly kill them) but they would not be persistent for that player.

Who really knows the true reason for lack of persistent NPCs, FD no doubt have considered the concerns that I have highlighted. Whether these are the fundamental reason why they have not implemented them (outside of SLF crew) or whether there are other reasons for the situation is a bit of an unknown.

 

[wrmiller]

I'd like a game with the flight model and galaxy of ED combined with the NPCs, station building, alien races, etc. of X4. Single-player only of course.

Can I get it by Christmas?

 

[kilvenny]

That depends on your personal game-play choices - credits are not that easy to acquire unless you engage in certain grindy exploits. The penalties for griefees (and the ganked) are certainly not that insignificant - 1 death could cost you hours (or more) of gameplay depending on the build and what you were doing at the time. The cost is not always just measured in credits - lost exploration data, failed missions. The only people that really lack any penalty of significance are the attackers.

This - Absolutely nailed the issue. Until you reach a certain point where it doesn't matter, the total cost of death is too much and you are right, it's not necessarily just credits that matter. It's okay saying a player should engineer or get good, but its the journey to that point that is the challenge. I fly a Cobra, the rebuy doesn't kill me, it's the other consequences of death that you mention that have a bigger impact.

 

[Ezren]

That depends on your personal game-play choices - credits are not that easy to acquire unless you engage in certain grindy exploits.

Citation needed.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

This - Absolutely nailed the issue. Until you reach a certain point where it doesn't matter, the total cost of death is too much and you are right, it's not necessarily just credits that matter. It's okay saying a player should engineer or get good, but its the journey to that point that is the challenge. I fly a Cobra, the rebuy doesn't kill me, it's the other consequences of death that you mention that have a bigger impact.

Indeed and add to that that for me personally the answer isn't to do the exploity or stupid over paid meta to make credits irrelevant either... Because i want ship destruction to be meaninful and also I don't want my ship to be so strong that I am essentially invincible.
Open can never be a good mode for me, well not until I have finally given up on trying to make ED feel believable ........ When that happens and it is just another space arcade shooter then sure what ever , I will treat it like war thunder or COD then .... But for now I want my game to feel as plausible as i can and open is just not that mode now.

 

[Brrokk]

Indeed and add to that that for me personally the answer isn't to do the exploity or stupid over paid meta to make credits irrelevant either... Because i want ship destruction to be meaninful and also I don't want my ship to be so strong that I am essentially invincible.
Open can never be a good mode for me, well not until I have finally given up on trying to make ED feel believable ........ When that happens and it is just another space arcade shooter then sure what ever , I will treat it like war thunder or COD then .... But for now I want my game to feel as plausible as i can and open is just not that mode now.

This. It's not the credits. It's not even the lost hours, although that seems more significant to me. The problem is really the breaking of immersion. Having people going about randomly attacking other starships to no purpose isn't a plausible SF future. Flying a spaceship is always going to be an expensive activity and the people doing it would need to be engaged in profitable activities like trade or mining. Space pilots would naturally be cooperative and have camaraderie by necessity.

Being attacked by a single-purpose ship flown by an uncommunicative pilot with purple hair just isn't a proper space game.

 

[Azreh Helas]

You are ignoring the fact that not everyone has access to engineering, there are still some base game hold-outs scattered around PLUS the "git gud" responses like yours are part of why I would not recommend Open mode to anyone - Mobius or other dedicated Private Group would be better.

There is nothing "reasonable" that FD can do to address the problems with Open that they have allowed to emerge (without alienating one section of the community or another) - it is too late to close that particular barn door.

Right, I forgot that you need Horizon to be able to play the full game. I took it for granted.

Edit: I have close to a bil rebuy from players and NPC's alike. So yeah getting killed motivated me to get better. Assuming you have Horizon, increasing your survivability is not a hard thing.

Make Horizon part of the game already.

 

[Gleitfrosch]

My issue with PVP in ED is that it is like "if I kill or rob someone in New York, all I have to do is to travel to Miami and everything will be ok."

We would not allow murderers and pirates to walk unharmed in our cities and states, so why do the authorities in ED allow it?

Prohibit them from docking at authority controlled stations, make them have to use pirate or some independent stations or systems controlled by Archon Delaine.

But make them feel the consequences for being a murderer or pirate.

Currently killing players and (in my opinion) player pirating is a hobby for the rich and the ones who can spend a lot of time to grind engineers and guardians sites.

 

[Azreh Helas]

I'd like a game with the flight model and galaxy of ED combined with the NPCs, station building, alien races, etc. of X4. Single-player only of course.

Can I get it by Christmas?

You know there may come and overhaul mod for x4 that does just that. That would be great. But don't make ED a SP game.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

You know there may come and overhaul mod for x4 that does just that. That would be great. But don't make ED a SP game.

Other games have gone from purely single player to multiplayer like elite has and they seem to work ok without compromising the single player game.... GTA is an obvious one ..... Others have still kept a single player component to keep the original players happy but have definitely lead to the single player part being marginalised somewhat (ie COD). But Elite Dangerous has i think asked the single players to give up more features and potential features than any other game I can think of where a purely single player franchise has added multiplayer.......
Which I always found surprising since FD really went hard at the Elite old guard when trying to work out if ED had the chops to be a viable product in KSer.
Personally I thing FD should have gone with their initial plan with elite 4 (before it was even named) and that was to keep the multiplayer component as a totally separate game...that way they could have played to the strengths of a single player game as well as an MMO

Where we are now imo is close to how ESO compares to Skyrim or fallout 76 to fallout 4.... Difference being there is still going to be a new proper elder Scrolls game and a new fallout game. ED is all the elite fans have and all the likely will ever hAve.

Remember when ED launched it didn't even have wingmates.

Just my 2p and my toys are still in my pram

 

[lenna]

Citation needed.

No citation required - it is simple truth. Besides which, credits are not the only things that can be lost on death as I have already pointed out.

Think about the case where a miner with expensive cargo gets ganked, they have not just lost their rebuy and the sale value of the cargo but also the time taken to acquire that cargo. Not necessarily a quick job.

Similarly with explorers, they may have flown thousands of Ly (spent days or longer in the black) and end up not only losing their rebuy but also their exploration data.

It is too easy for the PvPers to claim credits don't matter but they are ignoring numerous other related concerns.

 

[lenna]

This - Absolutely nailed the issue. Until you reach a certain point where it doesn't matter, the total cost of death is too much and you are right, it's not necessarily just credits that matter. It's okay saying a player should engineer or get good, but its the journey to that point that is the challenge. I fly a Cobra, the rebuy doesn't kill me, it's the other consequences of death that you mention that have a bigger impact.

Rebuy ALWAYS matters, 1 Million or less and you can theoretically earn it back in a single 15 minute (non-combat) mission (in theory) but get killed during that 15 minute mission and you can increase that penalty to 30-45 minutes, get killed again and that goes up to perhaps an hour (or more) wasted. On top of that there are the rep penalties and other concerns for mission failure.

In larger ships you have much higher re-buys, but conversely if you are in the bigger ships you should also be at a higher pilot rank - at least if you have any common sense. That being said, the higher paying missions are not guaranteed to be available so a c. 10 Million rebuy could take at least 2-4 times as long to recoup.

Anyone that claims (at a minimum) 15 mins worth of gameplay is insignificant or does not matter is showing a lack of respect to their fellow players and the game itself.

It is now past midnight in the UK, so Merry Christmas everyone and (at the gankers specifically - whoever they may be) please try to show a bit more good will and consideration/respect for your fellow players (at least) over the next week than you would at other times.