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Guardian SLFs Too weak to be used against Thargoids
- Thread starter CMDR Tod Quiller
- Start date
logs 4 and 5 describe the guardians need to develop autonomous war machines to fight for them because their own efforts failed.
this after a long war where the guardians ai machines outlasted the thargoid effort.
that's all in the logs. none of that sounds like they had no problem. it sounds like they had to invent ai after directly failing and then became so dependent on the ai that they couldn't stop it when it went sentient later on and died from their own incompetence.
fdev writing of lore sucks. they shouldn't have driven away talented authors willing to help.
log 4 contradicts slow evolution and reaction since thargoids developed a reaction to guardian tech in the short time frame they were involved in the war with them. thargoids also adapted to the human bio weapon used against them after a few decades.
what we have is a week cop out for why after millions of years the thargoids are defeated by weapons and tech designed from a race with only a 1300 years or so of experience with electricity. as always fdev doesn't care about making the story make sense. they have a goal for the kind of gameplay and if it doesn't make sense, oh well.
no, I'm saying guardians are a stupid race to consider better than humans for war tech when they have been written as being worse at fighting thargoids, worse at dealing with ai, and being millions of years behind the enemy we are currently facing.
guardian tech should be effective against humans because we are much younger and believably behind. thargoids should be impossibly advanced and devastating. that's not making things less fun. if fdev wants to show us war tech from an ancient civilization, it should be the tech that at least beat the enemy we're facing. not the tech that wasn't good enough. hint: the ai tech that beat the goids wouldn't be ships that appear to have cockpits or be. they would likely not be anything found in ruins or be understood by the guardians. if they could understand the tech, they likely wouldn't have been beaten by them.
I'm all for new gameplay, that's why thargoids should be nothing like farming human npcs. they should be nigh untouchable. alien. our game should revolve around finding a way to survive and exist out of their attention... not beat them. it's ridiculously stupid to think human tech is at a level to beat a race that's been warring across the stars before our race even evolved.
thargoids should be the galaxy's boogie man. the thing that keeps humanity from spreading far or getting too uppity. they are the top of the food chain and we need to find a way to survive long enough ( millions of years) so that one day we may surpass them... or earn their respect.
Human reverse engineered guardian tech is new. Humans beat the first wave of thargoids without any knowledge of guardians and in a short amount of time. and without needing to rely on a weapon we had no real control over that would eventually kill us.
using guardian tech to improve our own makes sense, since our tech is very new. but it's going from low tech to slightly less low tech. not a quantum leap.
the guardians did not fight the titans or it would have been obviously noted in the records. i think the totality of the thargoid battle with guardians was like the first wave humans had dealt with. guardians took way longer and suffered more losses and had to rely on ai to beat that wave.
then they killed themselves. just as the thargoids returned with titans like they did with us and the thargoids destroyed the guardian ai. the battle there having caused some titans to be lost. but none of this is written about because guardian ai and thargoids don't write stories down to be read. this battle weakened the goids but they were ultimately successful because we still have goids and we have no evidence of active guardian ai. just dormant relics related to guardians... not the ai constructs. we know it's not the constructs because of all the guardian codex stuff associated. the guardian ai constructs wouldn't leverage guardian tech, relics, etc. there wouldn't be writing or language in any way we'd understand guardian stuff to be.
so the thargoids killed off the ai constructs in the titan wave but suffered losses, perhaps losing many titans. then it took a long time to regrow the titan fleet. bringing us to current day when they once again set out a recon fleet which humanity quickly dealt with. the goids may have been more reluctant to respond to us in full force still, but the activation of the distress signal from the old titan by salvation was unignorable.
that's how i think events went and explain the lack of a galaxy full of ai overlords. the details of why goids are pushovers to a bunch of barely evolved apes just learning how to travel the stars .. notwithstanding. i'm not sure what fdev's plan is for goids long term but i'd be surprised if they had a plot thought out at all (at least one they are going to stick to). i think instead, it will be whatever it needs to be to follow whatever implementation of shoot-em-up combat that comes with on foot mechanics and if they can get more players involved with shooting them vs ignoring them by further nerfing goids.
Correct me if I’m wrong here, but didn’t the Constructs just vanish after doing the deed of killing their creators(rather than wait around for the Thargoids to come for round two - if they ever would have)? That’s what I remember the logs saying, anyway - ambiguous and open-ended, almost like Frontier is keeping that story aspect open for future uses… for all we know, they could have left the galaxy/Milky Way entirely, and are content to observe from the shadows. Or maybe just were, until that idiot Salvation set off the Proteus Wave…
And if the Constructs - certainly at the time of the Guardian-Thargoid war - were not using the technology supplied to them by the very species that created them, then what would they have used? Seems a bit illogical to not use what’s at your disposal already. Of course, does not exclude the Constructs making their own stuff later on, but it might still bear some similarities. (And would probably be a lot more devastating than our hybrid tech.)
Anyway, I don’t really think the Thargoids are swinging at full strength here. Though I’m also somewhat doubtful whether Frontier will actually make them pose a threat to more than a few systems at the edge of the Bubble, that most who aren’t out there don’t care for… otherwise, I’d say that I expect the next phase to be that, especially once we begin to drill into the Titans to recover pods.
I hope so(though also kind of have concerns), but my expectation is very different. I guess I’ll be pleasantly surprised if it turns out to be different.
Also, mycoid was just a pure stroke of luck(quite literally, if old logs are to be believed), bordering on magic with how effective it was. Some people seem to think it went close to wiping the Thargoids out, but I’m not exactly convinced, considering that we have exactly zero clues as to how many of them live in Witch Space, and what else they might have waiting in there for us. Plus the fact that they seem to have had no issues whatsoever keeping their forces going despite the losses around the Bubble.
(Okay, I guess around two centuries is enough time to recover from something like that, but to this extent? It’s more likely that it was just a recon fleet poking around our space back then. Also, old logs evidence the anti-Thargoid weapons of the time - which have probably been lost to history - having a negligible effect on those motherships.)
Anyway, re Guardian logs, they are simply not complete, so I don’t think we can fully rely on them telling us each and every detail of the war between Guardians and Thargoids. A lot of it just seems to be broad strokes, even the bit about the attempted communication isn’t particularly specific on why they failed negotiations. (And wouldn’t an understanding of the Thargoid language from those Guardian repositories be useful now …)
On that note - part of me does suspect a reason might have been the Thargoids doing a very similar thing with captured Guardians, as they are now with humans…
All of this is also a sidetrack from the original subject of Guardian fighters being hopelessly inadequate at fighting Thargoids, ever since the AI got messed up and they started targeting them immediately.
Hard disagree, we relied on a miracle fungus and basically prayed that the vaccine wasn't needed, since many would have needlessly died to it. Could have possibly even killed us all, since thargoids seem generally more resilient. Without mycoid miracle fungus and without guardian tech, we'd not be anywhere near as successful as we are.
I disagree. That would have to be more than one typo to get from "two medium, three large and two huge hardpoints" to "two small, two medium, one large and two huge hardpoints".
I think there would have easily been enough space to fit the bigger hardpoints. Aren't there still two additional utility slots in the model than we can actually equip?
Imho the design clearly changed at some point. It most likely changed several times, just as it did for all ships I'd assume.
Whether anybody wants to call these pre-release changes a 'nerf' or not isn't something I really care about.
Remaindering authors is their right, particularly if they believed they weren't following Frontier's own vision, or something...
aye
...and fdev has directly told us they change extremely slowly over time, we have logs saying the guardians fought with the same cyclops, basilisks and medusa we have now (if they were significantly different, it is unlikely the obelisks would have recognized the tissue samples)
especially about the obelisk part?? do they react to goid samples or something? :O
aye friend mind to tell me a little about
...and fdev has directly told us they change extremely slowly over time, we have logs saying the guardians fought with the same cyclops, basilisks and medusa we have now (if they were significantly different, it is unlikely the obelisks would have recognized the tissue samples)
especially about the obelisk part?? do they react to goid samples or something? :O
In Meene (the home system of the engineer Ram Tah) there are two special missions you can get (by docking at the stations) for decrypting guardian logs/lore from their obelisks. The first mission involves going to their ancient ruin sites, while the second mission involves going to their ancient structures (the sites with the sentinels, where you can activate the machine and get blueprints). To get the logs you have to scan their obelisks with the SRV while carrying the correct items indicated by the glowing symbols on the front of each obelisk.
Most of the obelisks require guardian items that are easy to find scattered around on the ground but some of the ones at the guardian structures require thargoid items, like probes or sensors or tissue samples from cyclops, basilisk or medusa. Why the guardians would choose these items to safeguard their historical records is a mystery.
OH great to know and thank you very much i really appreciate it!! i see now, maybe next time ill give this Ram Tah stuff a shot my self
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