Hang on...what happened to shields?

[Kissinger]

As has been pointed out before...this is a game. When the game is at a point where situations you regularly find yourself in are a) unwinnable regardless of your skill level, and b) unsurvivable, so you can't really increase your skill level without losing so much money that you're effectively on a constant downward path, it's not really a game any more. It's just masochism.

Conversely, when the game suddenly changes to make (a) and (b) the case, it's sadism

Agreed, but maybe they are trying to encourage winging up. But I agree this is a problem, because from the very first days, and the original Elite, I've been a solo player.

 

[Space Dandy]

Agreed, but maybe they are trying to encourage winging up. But I agree this is a problem, because from the very first days, and the original Elite, I've been a solo player.

Maybe but I bought this before single player was scrapped and that's how I want to play it, not interested in wings or pvp which is why I group or solo. I know I am far far from the only one so if they try to push this too hard it wont make me wing more but rather log off and not want to log back on.

 

[Kissinger]

Maybe but I bought this before single player was scrapped and that's how I want to play it, not interested in wings or pvp which is why I group or solo. I know I am far far from the only one so if they try to push this too hard it wont make me wing more but rather log off and not want to log back on.

I do think there's been a lot of emphasis on development of team play, which leaves solo players wonder when something will be done for them also. This is why the quality and financial balancing of missions is so important to many players, but it often falls on deaf ears. Ignoring the quality and playability of missions in the development process seems to be almost a tradition in this game, but that's a bit off topic

 

[DaveB]

Took out my A-spec Python ( 3 Lg Gimbl burst lasers, 2 Med Gmbld MCs, sincgle A6 SCB, Mil spec armor ). Against a Competent Anaconda, Dangerous Vulture, and Dangerous Eagle...

Ok, so lets do a little after-action review here. You were facing three separate targets, with the disadvantage of only being able to engage one while the other two fired on you unopposed except by your passive defenses. NPCs are known to use chaff at the skill ratings of these three and you were relying on gimbaled weapons for your entire offense. In addition the balance of firepower was not in your favor with a total of one huge, five large, four medium and five small weapons targeting you while you were only able to reply with three large and two medium. This is not a completely unsurvivable tactical situation but it certainly isn't a favorable one. You chose to engage the weakest threat first. You could have tanked the fire from that eagle much longer than you could either of the other two ships. It is debatable whether the vulture or the anaconda posed the greatest threat given their differences in firepower and maneuverability but it is certain that the eagle should not have been your primary target. The time you spent popping the weakest ship exposed you to the fire from two much more powerful craft when you should instead have been eliminating at least one of them to knock out a minimum of two large hardpoints of incoming fire.

You got your rear handed to you because in a challenging tactical situation you failed to properly evaluate the threat you faced and made incorrect tactical choices as a result.

"The department of defense regrets to inform you... "

 

[Space Dandy]

...snip...


For reference, here's a handy illustration on EVE Online's learning curve: http://imgur.com/gallery/jj16ThL. E should strive to achieve something similar, PLUS the twitch skills requirement.

..snip..

Ridiculous, this was never meant to be Eve in cockpits with dark souls difficulty.

 

[CMDR Kantos Kan]

The more I think about it, the more I believe that this is a move in the right direction, even if it makes E the game which isn't for everyone (possibly myself included).

The game's title is Elite: Dangerous, not Adequate: Chill Space Trucking. And it should live up to its name and the creator's vision first and foremost. Read up the Dark Wheel (the original 1984 Elite's companion fiction). Space traders are constantly broke, constantly threatened, and trading up even to a Cobra takes half a lifetime; the other half a lifetime is spent paying to outfit it and to scrap together enough money to retire. On top of that, every time you fly you can get in a fight (so flying shieldless or weaponless is not an option), and every fight can wipe out any potential profits from your trade and put you in the red, if you survive that is. The main character literally fusses over whether he should or shouldn't fire a missile because reloading that missile would likely eat up his current trade's profit. And combateers have short lifespans, with Elite rank being so rare that they are almost legendary. Nearly everyone who fights for a living either flies an OP fighting craft, or wings up, or both.

For reference, here's a handy illustration on EVE Online's learning curve: http://imgur.com/gallery/jj16ThL. E should strive to achieve something similar, PLUS the twitch skills requirement.

Really, the end goal should be Ninja Gaiden-level difficulty, where every time you fight, you fight for your life; every mistake is potentially fatal; every decision is life and death; and every loss is keenly felt. The base for this model is already there: Elite's main currency is time, and when you are threatened, you should be looking at potentially losing months or years (not days or hours) of hard grind. Yes, it would drive off certain segments of the playerbase, but it would attract others to replace the departed. So nerfing shields, upping prices for everything, increasing weapon strength and increasing death penalties are the right way to go, as those are elements of the original vision. Those in disagreement with it may just have to seek greener pastures elsewhere.

Yes, great idea. As a result, in one year, there will be exactly 151 players remaining in the whole universe. How are you going to sell your next expansion?

 

[CariadocThorne]

Who's refusing to file a report? The fact that there's probably a bug at work here is great, but as I said...I want more information before I file a report so as to maximise the chance of them fixing it without having to spend a ton of time investigating. Unfortunately, I actually have a day job so I can't sit noodling around in Elite until this evening, possibly tomorrow.

You really do seem to be twisting yourself in a knot to justify calling me a whiner here. It's really quite silly.

Ok, first an apology. Reading back I realise I must have skimmed through this thread too quickly and mixed up who posted what. Your posts are not the ones moaning and whining, so I apologise for accusing you of moaning and whining.

Secondly, as someone who has also done some development over the years (albeit small scale stuff for local use only) I would suggest that it is better to report a bug early than wait to gather more data. After all, there's nothing to stop you continuing to gather data and pass it along later, but FD can't do anything until they know the bug is there.

As for "probably" a bug, if it is occuring inconsistently (as some players are experiencing it and some aren't) then it's almost certainly a bug. It might even be that shields are meant to be weaker and the bug is that some players aren't having that, but that is still a bug.

 

[nrage]

Shield strength wasn't touched. And a4 scbs actually received a very slight nerf whereas the larger scbs got buffed.

I thought all SCBs got buffed WRT the time they operate for - they all boost for twice as long as before. Then, all SCBs of class 5 and lower got nerfed in their amount of output, based on size, so more nerf for smaller SCBs - to make them less desirable for larger ships. Then, all shields got a recharge boost when in the "down" state until they're back up (4x or so). Then, all shields got a recharge boost in staion (7x or so).

So, the basic idea now is to fit the largest single SCB you can, and/or have a backup, but stop stacking loads of smaller ones.

 

[Kissinger]

with the disadvantage of only being able to engage one while the other two fired on you unopposed except by your passive defenses.

(+1. This is actually the origin of one of Lanchester's Laws of warfare - the square law - but beware of Stigler's Law )

 

[eza]

Yes, great idea. As a result, in one year, there will be exactly 151 players remaining in the whole universe. How are you going to sell your next expansion?

EVE has done well for itself for over a decade. The reason for the longevity is the high difficulty level.
If a game's too easy then people get bored with it and stop playing.
Elite's always been a hard game. Don't see why it should get dumbed down.
Things are a lot better now than they were in Gamma, when I could dodge station fire while popping system security for as long as I wanted, or slaughter hundreds of combat-challenged NPCs and come out without even a scratch on my paintwork.
Now strong signal sources and hazardous RESes have made things much more difficult, and much more fun.
It makes you think about the consequences of what you're about to do, form better plans, and ultimately play in a more interesting way.

 

[winghong]

ok but.... EVE 's npc's are much much easier to avoid.....

 

[Bacalao]

My shields have been fine in interdiction encounters, enemies are the same, just as easy to kill but they shoot back now instead of interdicting and flying away, or getting interdicted and ignoring you, or scanning you and turning away.
-
Those horrible, horrible NPCs, don't they know they are supposed to spin around until I get their hull to 50% and then they have my permission to boost into an asteroid?

 

[Jet Fusion]

I thought all SCBs got buffed WRT the time they operate for - they all boost for twice as long as before. Then, all SCBs of class 5 and lower got nerfed in their amount of output, based on size, so more nerf for smaller SCBs - to make them less desirable for larger ships. Then, all shields got a recharge boost when in the "down" state until they're back up (4x or so). Then, all shields got a recharge boost in staion (7x or so).

So, the basic idea now is to fit the largest single SCB you can, and/or have a backup, but stop stacking loads of smaller ones.

I'm ok with that, however the current heat generation is really off the scale. The current generation should be happening when you use more than one cell at once. A protective module that actually destroys your ship doesn't make any sense from an engineering perspective. When the idea is to not use them then why have them in the game at all for the larger ships or is the idea to sacrifice a slot for heat sinks to keep spamming shield cells? Shield cell + heat sink macro = bye bye nerf?

I'm ok with a higher difficulty level, because for me it was on grandparent mode. The game is called Elite Dangerous not Pink Fluffy's destroy 2 million civilizations while sleeping and dreaming about jelly donuts.

 

[Magnusvermagnussen]

What I'm seeing here is some moron who's never flown a combat ship, much less paid the repair bill for a damaged Python. Sure, this would be fine if the bounty rewards per ship were something like a million bucks, because then it'd be worth it to take one ship out and be forced to fly back for repairs. Right now? Absolutely ridiculous. I paid a damn sight more than a Cobra's worth for my Python, and I don't expect it to be able to be taken out by a Cobra because of that. And keep in mind, this is a ship I spent over two hundred hours grinding for. When you actually spend some time trying to earn a ship, THEN you can come back and state your opinion. For now, get out.

Wow. Somebody peed in someone's cheerios this morning.
.
In all seriousness, you may want to consider anger management therapy: http://www.apa.org/topics/anger/control.aspx. These guys can probably help.
.
Best of luck man.

 

[nrage]

What you're probably noticing is the AI isn't going dormant and just spinning in a circle while not moving. They actually shoot back now. It also seemed like they matched them more closely to your combat rating in RES and CZs too, which is great for both bounties and raising your rating.

I was running into mostly Elite NPCs in a High Intensity RES while messing around with frag cannons. 140k for an Asp in a non boosted system.

Yeah, an Elite FDL was really hammering me in my battle conda until I realised I needed to focus him. Once I did he melted (3x adv plasmas ) but that's not new FDLs have always been a bit squishy compared to the python I was hammering prior to his appearance.

 

[CMDR Kantos Kan]

EVE has done well for itself for over a decade. The reason for the longevity is the high difficulty level.
If a game's too easy then people get bored with it and stop playing.
Elite's always been a hard game. Don't see why it should get dumbed down.
Things are a lot better now than they were in Gamma, when I could dodge station fire while popping system security for as long as I wanted, or slaughter hundreds of combat-challenged NPCs and come out without even a scratch on my paintwork.
Now strong signal sources and hazardous RESes have made things much more difficult, and much more fun.
It makes you think about the consequences of what you're about to do, form better plans, and ultimately play in a more interesting way.

I don't mind a hard game. But there is a limit where a game will lose its appeal with the general gamer audience. I too played EVE. In the 6 months or so that I played, I'm not sure I totally grabbed the whole story from the game. It was just overwhelming.

As a result, I no longer play EVE and they're not collecting a monthly fee from me anymore. I now play Elite Dangerous and hope I'll be able to enjoy it for some time...

 

[nrage]

I'm ok with that, however the current heat generation is really off the scale. The current generation should be happening when you use more than one cell at once. A protective module that actually destroys your ship doesn't make any sense from an engineering perspective. When the idea is to not use them then why have them in the game at all for the larger ships or is the idea to sacrifice a slot for heat sinks to keep spamming shield cells? Shield cell + heat sink macro = you nerf?

If you want less heat, you can fit a smaller SCB.. of course it won't recharge as much. Personally I like the changes, they make me think about my loadout more, make me use heat sink launchers when I haven't bothered before (in combat) and they mean less shield boosters - which is a good thing, as it will reduce the overall shield meta. Bring it on I say. Change can be unsettling, but I say dive in and make the most out of it.

 

[Salami]

I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of pirates suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I believe something wonderful has happened

Siddious and his death ball? XD

 

[imkain]

I would like to add my two cents here. This morning I took my Viper Mk IV out for a spin. I picked up a mission to drop something off at Raydock space station. On my way back I stopped by the Nav beacon in the next system and stumbled across a wanted unshielded Python. I opened fire on them with my gimballed gattling cannons and was able to slowly chew through them (keep in mind that I do not have the best of the best weapons, yet). I destroyed the Python, with a little bit of help from the Federation Security (without them attempting to attack me too). Received a nice 48,000 credit bounty reward. During combat I never saw any issue with my shields being like paper...and only lost half of the outer ring.

Keep in mind I am not in a Python. So I just wanted to provide my experience so far. The only stuff I have on my ship is a shield booster that passively boosts your shield power and does not consume anything to refresh your shields.

 

[Arjin]

Maybe it simply is because we have all become used to owning everything everywhere, now that they (NPC's) have been juiced up as they should be, it's been easy mode. Now we have to re-evaluate our setups, situational awareness etc. I went into a distress call last night in my Vulture and was promptly stripped of my shields and was down to 26% hull before I had to bail.

Didn't even have time to get a bead on one target let alone identify what I was fighting shipwise, though I do know that atleast two were vipers. Heart pounding holy crap moment for sure, which was great.. how long has it been since one of those....

And to add it was four on one, I think the days of owning that situation is now over, unless your ship can out gun out last the multiple targets you are fighting.

Time to start thinking of armor plating......


Edit: I also wonder, if this is some of the leftover evilness tweaks that Sarah Jane Avory was working on...*gulp*