Hard lesson learned - will no longer level up a NPC crew

[Morbad]

What would you suggest as the penalty for failing to eject 'in time'? Death means death? That would be cruel and unusual.

Same as a save reset, perhaps with the ability to will some surviving assets (after the powers that been swoop in for their cut) to your new CMDR.

 

[Daniel Cloudsifter]

Here is an easy lesson to learn. Don't get attached to pixels.

Also good news there is going to be another pixel in the sea for you!



Not baffling at all there are plenty of players who like that they can lose people permanently. There was strong counter protest about changing it.

I'm not attached to the pixels. I'm attached to the pixels + backstory + particular voicepack my pilots have. I hired several harmless pilots and got them up to Expert before I found someone with a better voice and replaced them.

I now have one Elite pilot, who has my favorite voice. My second favorite is now 90% through Deadly to Elite. My third favorite is still at harmless and will remain there unless one of the other two is lost.

If they leave permadeath in for the pilots, fine. I'd prefer they have an escape pod and either have a random chance of dying or - better - a random chance of saying "screw you, I quit".

I don't have a problem with them taking a percentage of everything I make, even when they aren't active. Why? They're on contract to you exclusively! Do you ever have a problem of trying to activate one, only to be told "Sorry commander, I'm busy working for someone else/doing a job on my own/I'm currently on vacation"? No. That's because they are always on standby for whenever you need them.

I also like seeing that they've both (main two, forget the harmless backup) earned about 80 million each working with me. Oh noes! That's a 160 million credits I didn't get to keep! Yeah, that's really hurting my bottom line - which just went from 450 million to 527 in the last couple of days (that's cash; assets are around 3 billion). It's a small tax to pay.

But back to the issue of losing them - my main problem with the 100% guarantee of loss is that it makes me not want to play in open with my SLF pilots. Risking rebuy is one thing. Risking loss of valued, leveled up crew? Screw that: run from fights (not combat log) or just stay out of open. That's one reason why I finally got around to outfitting and engineering a FDL. So I have something I can use it open that's decent, and all I lose is a rebuy.

 

[Cpt Spaulding]

Why do our crew members die and we don't? Stupid game mechanic is stupid.

 

[Daniel Cloudsifter]

I lost an Elite crewmember before due to bad luck...it sucks but training up a new one didn't take so long.
At the moment I have an Elite one and a Master in reserve.
I only use them in my engineered Cutter and Conda, so the chance of me loosing them is quite small.

What bothers me is that it can take a while to find a pretty crewmeber with a normal name

Yeah, it takes a while to find an attractive crew member, who hopefully has a decent backstory, and has a voice pack you like (which is a total mystery until they are hired and used). Also, it takes about 3-5 times as long to find attractive male pilots as female (which drives me crazy); in fact, mine are just tolerable to kind of okay. I've never seen a smoking hot male npc like I have the females (though rare).

And then when you insist (like I do) to only hire them starting at harmless (for cheapest percentage and the joy of leveling them up), it takes even longer.

I really wish we could preview the voices before hiring AND that we could still view the candidates if we have three hired. My harmless third pilot is ok, but I have no way of checking to see if I can find a better back up without firing him first. Bummer.

 

[Daniel Cloudsifter]

Why do our crew members die and we don't? Stupid game mechanic is stupid.

Yeah, I'd be willing to let it slide IF passengers suffered the same fate. But they don't. The cabins you buy for them all contain escape pods. So the only person who doesn't get to safely abandon ship is your SLF pilot. Why?

They could easily fix this lore oversight, with zero code changes, by simply stating for the record: when your ship is lost, SLF pilot also safely ejects. However, due to Pilot's Federation contract and/or ship insurance legal mumbo jumbo, they are required to leave your employ and work for someone else. You still suffer the permanent loss (which FDEV apparently wants) without making it look absolutely stupid (everyone gets magic escape pods but your special crew mate!).

Regardless, that's how I rationalize my pilot losses... or would, if I had lost one yet.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

Why do our crew members die and we don't? Stupid game mechanic is stupid.

ok i agree it is stupid they do not have escape pods like other npcs and passengers have.

but to answer your specific question its because, as members of the Pilots Federation one of our exclusive perks is the (very expensive) remlock system AFAIK we do not use generic escape pods like the npcs use which is why it is different it still does not explain their certain death however!.

that said... anyone remember this from the good old days

===========

When you start a new game, you are given the choice between two separate modes: Casual and Hardcore.

Let’s look at Casual first. It’s similar to the initial proposal:

As you leave a docking port the game records the state of your ship

Should your ship be destroyed, you restart the game at the docking port where the ship state was last recorded

You are given a replacement ship and equipment identical to the last ship record

All cargo and consumables spent since the last ship record are lost
Some or all of these may still be present where your ship was destroyed

Some active missions may be failed – based on specific mission criteria

Escape pods may not be fitted

Casual characters are automatically part of the “casual players” group as well as any other groups (such as “all players”, “Friends”, etc.)
A character may not be present in both the “Casual players” and “Hardcore Players” group at the same time
A Casual character cannot change to the “Hardcore Players” group

Hardcore has some significant differences:

All starter ships are equipped with an escape pod for free

When your ship is terminally damaged there is a short time (around 5-10 seconds, maybe more) when you able still able to activate the escape pod (even though the ship is technically dead)

Escape pods use the following rules:
They cannot be attacked, damaged or scooped
They are disposable – once used, another must be purchased
They allow a one shot hyperspace jump to one of a limited number of destinations based on the current location and the location of the last ship record
After using an escape pod, you receive a replacement ship with identical equipment to the last ship record
All cargo and consumables spent since the last ship record is lost
Some or all of these may still be present where your ship was destroyed

If your ship is destroyed and no escape pod is fitted (or the you decide not to activate the escape pod) then where the ship was destroyed determines the result:
Some areas are designated as protected
You restart at the nearest docking port that sells ships after a short, enforced delay
You are given cash equivalent to the value of the ship and equipment
Your ship, equipment and cargo is lost
The contextualisation for this is that your RemLock activates and you are rescued
Some areas are designated as unprotected
You have the choice of starting a new hardcore character, or reviving the current character as a casual character, retaining cash, ship and equipment from the last ship record

Hardcore characters are automatically part of the “hardcore players” group as well as any other groups (such as “all players”, “Friends”, etc.)
A character may not be present in both the “Casual players” and “Hardcore players” group at the same time
A Hardcore character can change to the “Casual Players” group (and thereon in follow that group’s death rules), but this process cannot be reversed

Common Rules:

When your ship destruction is detected as a criminal act, the perpetrator is suffers temporary forced inclusion into the “All players” group
Game time elapsed is used as opposed to real-time
You can flag friends to be immune from this rule

Cargo ejected as a result of criminal attack is flagged as stolen
If you can reach the cargo you may collect it without penalty
You may flag friends who are then also allowed to collect it without penalty

If your ship was destroyed by authorities or their sub-contractors any bounty and criminal record you have is reduced

Disconnects

When the game cannot communicate with your client the following action is preferred (notwithstanding technical limitations)
Your ship carries on at the last known trajectory
If under attack the ship attempts minimal evasive movement
Any turret weapon systems will continue to attack enemies using basic AI
There is no obvious feedback to other players that connection has been lost
After a delay (around 30 seconds) of contiguous connection loss your ship, if still alive is removed from the game (with some form of contextual escape jump effect)

 

[Cpt Spaulding]

Easy fix.

Your npc fighter blows up.
An escape pod containing your pilot spawns in with the debris with an air timer of, let's say 20 minutes.
You now have the option to retrieve your crew member, or leave 'em in the black for another cmdr to save and hire.

 

[Daniel Cloudsifter]

I've suggested this before, but I'd like a Escape Pod Module to be available. That will give us the option of saving our crew, at the expense of losing a module slot and some power draw.

Save your crew or save a slot? Your choice. Maybe even have the crew's performance increase a small amount if you don't have a pod - they'll be extra motivated to earn their pay in battle, knowing if they don't then there's a good chance of being out of a job and well, life.

Or failing this, at least let there be a random chance (they do seem to love RNG) they survive/remain in our employ!

As I've already stated, I think they survive, they just leave our employ. Why not expand on that and add crew rebuy to the equation? Your elite pilot has earned 120 million and is upset about nearly dying when your ship exploded; in order for them to remain in your employ, they have requested a 12 million credit bonus/compensation (10%).

There are many ways they could handle this better, and they aren't. As I've said before, if they aren't going to change any code, they could at least say the loss is due to the pilot leaving our employ after ejecting (possibly contractually obligated to leave) instead of just dying. When EVERYONE else survives, including stupid passengers, it's dumb that a crew member (of the Pilot's Federation, no less) doesn't get a magic escape pod.

 

[Aashenfox]

Same as a save reset, perhaps with the ability to will some surviving assets (after the powers that been swoop in for their cut) to your new CMDR.

I like my games hard (and hardcore), but implementing this would make Dark Souls look like a Family Nintendo title. lol.

I'm definitely not against a 'death means death' game mode, for those even MORE masochistic than myself, but I have to say, I wouldn't play it. I thank Bob every time I blow up for the magic escape pod which can bend space and time due to it's very small size, low mass, and mahoosive personal FSD drive, in fact, it's so effective, it's akin to a teleporter (there you go, I just wrote the canon for the magic escape pod in 2 minutes!).

 

[Morbad]

I like my games hard (and hardcore), but implementing this would make Dark Souls look like a Family Nintendo title. lol.

I'm definitely not against a 'death means death' game mode, for those even MORE masochistic than myself, but I have to say, I wouldn't play it. I thank Bob every time I blow up for the magic escape pod which can bend space and time due to it's very small size, low mass, and mahoosive personal FSD drive, in fact, it's so effective, it's akin to a teleporter (there you go, I just wrote the canon for the magic escape pod in 2 minutes!).

I'd play such an 'Ironman' mode, but I certainly don't think they could impose it on the whole game at this point...it's not what anyone bought into when access to the game was sold to them.

 

[rootsrat]

I'm sure Pilots Federation would consider adding a mandatory escape capsule for fighter pilots... Even if only as an additional module on our ships.

Hear us FDEV? Please make it happen

 

[Ralph Vargr]

ok i agree it is stupid they do not have escape pods like other npcs and passengers have.

but to answer your specific question its because, as members of the Pilots Federation one of our exclusive perks is the (very expensive) remlock system AFAIK we do not use generic escape pods like the npcs use which is why it is different it still does not explain their certain death however!.

that said... anyone remember this from the good old days

===========

When you start a new game, you are given the choice between two separate modes: Casual and Hardcore.

Let’s look at Casual first. It’s similar to the initial proposal:

As you leave a docking port the game records the state of your ship

Should your ship be destroyed, you restart the game at the docking port where the ship state was last recorded

You are given a replacement ship and equipment identical to the last ship record

All cargo and consumables spent since the last ship record are lost
Some or all of these may still be present where your ship was destroyed

Some active missions may be failed – based on specific mission criteria

Escape pods may not be fitted

Casual characters are automatically part of the “casual players” group as well as any other groups (such as “all players”, “Friends”, etc.)
A character may not be present in both the “Casual players” and “Hardcore Players” group at the same time
A Casual character cannot change to the “Hardcore Players” group

Hardcore has some significant differences:

All starter ships are equipped with an escape pod for free

When your ship is terminally damaged there is a short time (around 5-10 seconds, maybe more) when you able still able to activate the escape pod (even though the ship is technically dead)

Escape pods use the following rules:
They cannot be attacked, damaged or scooped
They are disposable – once used, another must be purchased
They allow a one shot hyperspace jump to one of a limited number of destinations based on the current location and the location of the last ship record
After using an escape pod, you receive a replacement ship with identical equipment to the last ship record
All cargo and consumables spent since the last ship record is lost
Some or all of these may still be present where your ship was destroyed

If your ship is destroyed and no escape pod is fitted (or the you decide not to activate the escape pod) then where the ship was destroyed determines the result:
Some areas are designated as protected
You restart at the nearest docking port that sells ships after a short, enforced delay
You are given cash equivalent to the value of the ship and equipment
Your ship, equipment and cargo is lost
The contextualisation for this is that your RemLock activates and you are rescued
Some areas are designated as unprotected
You have the choice of starting a new hardcore character, or reviving the current character as a casual character, retaining cash, ship and equipment from the last ship record

Hardcore characters are automatically part of the “hardcore players” group as well as any other groups (such as “all players”, “Friends”, etc.)
A character may not be present in both the “Casual players” and “Hardcore players” group at the same time
A Hardcore character can change to the “Casual Players” group (and thereon in follow that group’s death rules), but this process cannot be reversed

Common Rules:

When your ship destruction is detected as a criminal act, the perpetrator is suffers temporary forced inclusion into the “All players” group
Game time elapsed is used as opposed to real-time
You can flag friends to be immune from this rule

Cargo ejected as a result of criminal attack is flagged as stolen
If you can reach the cargo you may collect it without penalty
You may flag friends who are then also allowed to collect it without penalty

If your ship was destroyed by authorities or their sub-contractors any bounty and criminal record you have is reduced

Disconnects

When the game cannot communicate with your client the following action is preferred (notwithstanding technical limitations)
Your ship carries on at the last known trajectory
If under attack the ship attempts minimal evasive movement
Any turret weapon systems will continue to attack enemies using basic AI
There is no obvious feedback to other players that connection has been lost
After a delay (around 30 seconds) of contiguous connection loss your ship, if still alive is removed from the game (with some form of contextual escape jump effect)

Wow. This explains a lot of childhood trauma.

 

[Ralph Vargr]

I have two pilots waiting for NPC functionality from Frontier, eating a percentage of my payout.

I may be waiting in vain, and get my income back, despite rewarding the Art Department for making non-disfigured NPC's.

 

[Leo Sagan]

I lost my Elite NPC crew due to a game bug.

Been there, done that, feel for ya, +rep etc. etc.

FD, please : give us a way to retrieve / save / rebuy / whatever our crew. I don't have any crew mate on board for this very reason : losing them brings nothing to the game and just makes this feature unused.

What's the point ? You don't want your player base to use the new features you're working on ?

CQC ? Deserted !
PP ? Used by a handful of players !
SLF Crew ? Neglected because there is NO POINT !

C'mon ! Stop creating features for the happy few : this doesn't make any sense ! Destroyed ship = mandatory difficult rescue mission or heavy money loss or any punishment you can think of, I don't care. Actually I'd welcome that. But don't ruin the whole player story ("my ship, my crew") in the blink of an eye for NOTHING.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Wow. This explains a lot of childhood trauma.

It's actually a quote of one of Sandro's posts in the DDF:

Spoiler

Edit- Some additional points on Exploration, Escape Pods and the difference between modes can be found here - Ashley

The starter topic has generated a very interesting week for us in the office. We’ve been going round and round, chewing stuff over and checking out all the angles. Here are the conclusions I have drawn, both about the topic and the process.

The Process

Narrower topics

This is a tricky one, since some areas of design are necessarily very inter-related, but in hindsight, the death topic (especially as a starter) was probably a little too broad. Hopefully our second topic covering hyperspace is a little more self-contained – this is definitely what we will aim for in the future.

Focus on game rules over context

Although I’m a firm believer that context and rules are both important, in hindsight I should have tried to guide the discussion more towards rules, as this information is more useful to me. That is not to say that context is unwanted, but probably a little too much time went into discussing it relative to mechanics.

More presence and guidance

Hopefully this is already starting to be addressed with the arrival of Mike Evans in the DDF, but it’s probably common sense to state that the more we developers can communicate in the forum, the better it will be for everyone involved. I’m not claiming this will ever be perfect coverage, but with two of us available it should at least be an improvement.

More discussion about the differences between DDF and PBF

I think my timing was pretty poor on our announcement for polls and thread sharing, even if I don’t see a major issue with what we are actually proposing. With that in mind, I’m probably going to start a new thread here in the DDF in the near future to discuss with you guys and gals what the best way forward would be.

Onwards

With that all stated, and after a lot of discussion in the office, we have come up with the following update to handling death in the game. I’d like you to take a moment and give it a read through.

In this particular instance, in the end I decided that there was not a clear enough set of useful options to poll on. This is mostly my fault – mostly for the reasons stated above – but there appears to me to be a fairly significant and relatively clear split between what I like to call hardcore and casual players (I’m not implying any derisory context with these titles, so neither should you).

I got the impression (especially from a fair few of the replies) that the initial proposal wasn’t a million light years away from what the casual players are looking for, but by definition it didn’t have the weight of consequences that the hardcore players might be looking for.

Whilst we could favour one group over the other, it occurs to me that perhaps there is room for everyone to play (after all, this is one of the keystones of the Elite series) so what we have come up with is an attempt to cast a wide net over the topic and hopefully cater to a broad range of players.

And by using a death switch option, then perhaps there really is no reason for players to avoid dabbling in hardcore game play.

One final point before the rules and this is quite important: as a design team we’re pretty happy with this set of mechanics at the moment. There is a long internal road before we could sign this off, but we think we have a start. If you can see major flaws in the mechanical rules, please fire away, but I’d like to avoid this devolving into another huge debate, so please don’t post otherwise, unless you absolutely detest some or all of the decisions (or want to publicly support them).

Updated proposal

When you start a new game, you are given the choice between two separate modes: Casual and Hardcore.

Let’s look at Casual first. It’s similar to the initial proposal:

• As you leave a docking port the game records the state of your ship

• Should your ship be destroyed, you restart the game at the docking port where the ship state was last recorded

• You are given a replacement ship and equipment identical to the last ship record

• All cargo and consumables spent since the last ship record are lost
  • Some or all of these may still be present where your ship was destroyed

• Some active missions may be failed – based on specific mission criteria

• Escape pods may not be fitted

• Casual characters are automatically part of the “casual players” group as well as any other groups (such as “all players”, “Friends”, etc.)
  • A character may not be present in both the “Casual players” and “Hardcore Players” group at the same time
  • A Casual character cannot change to the “Hardcore Players” group

Hardcore has some significant differences:

• All starter ships are equipped with an escape pod for free

• When your ship is terminally damaged there is a short time (around 5-10 seconds, maybe more) when you able still able to activate the escape pod (even though the ship is technically dead)

• Escape pods use the following rules:
  • They cannot be attacked, damaged or scooped
  • They are disposable – once used, another must be purchased
  • They allow a one shot hyperspace jump to one of a limited number of destinations based on the current location and the location of the last ship record
  • After using an escape pod, you receive a replacement ship with identical equipment to the last ship record
  • All cargo and consumables spent since the last ship record is lost
  • Some or all of these may still be present where your ship was destroyed

• If your ship is destroyed and no escape pod is fitted (or the you decide not to activate the escape pod) then where the ship was destroyed determines the result:
  • Some areas are designated as protected
    • You restart at the nearest docking port that sells ships after a short, enforced delay
    • You are given cash equivalent to the value of the ship and equipment
    • Your ship, equipment and cargo is lost
    • The contextualisation for this is that your RemLock activates and you are rescued
  • Some areas are designated as unprotected
    • You have the choice of starting a new hardcore character, or reviving the current character as a casual character, retaining cash, ship and equipment from the last ship record

• Hardcore characters are automatically part of the “hardcore players” group as well as any other groups (such as “all players”, “Friends”, etc.)
  • A character may not be present in both the “Casual players” and “Hardcore players” group at the same time
  • A Hardcore character can change to the “Casual Players” group (and thereon in follow that group’s death rules), but this process cannot be reversed

Common Rules:

• When your ship destruction is detected as a criminal act, the perpetrator is suffers temporary forced inclusion into the “All players” group
  • Game time elapsed is used as opposed to real-time
  • You can flag friends to be immune from this rule

• Cargo ejected as a result of criminal attack is flagged as stolen
  • If you can reach the cargo you may collect it without penalty
  • You may flag friends who are then also allowed to collect it without penalty

• If your ship was destroyed by authorities or their sub-contractors any bounty and criminal record you have is reduced

Disconnects

• When the game cannot communicate with your client the following action is preferred (notwithstanding technical limitations)
  • Your ship carries on at the last known trajectory
  • If under attack the ship attempts minimal evasive movement
  • Any turret weapon systems will continue to attack enemies using basic AI
  • There is no obvious feedback to other players that connection has been lost
  • After a delay (around 30 seconds) of contiguous connection loss your ship, if still alive is removed from the game (with some form of contextual escape jump effect)

 

[Leo Sagan]

when things like that happen i try to role play it off as a random catestrophic equipment faulure (your FSD did not disengage correctly and crashed your ship).

Yup, but after a while it is getting old. :-S

that said, i am fully infavour of having the opportunity to rescue your downed npc. more game activities is a good thing... tho i would draw the line in suggesting it should be a 100% chance to rescue them

Of course you are : you're one of the most reasonable guys on the forum and this makes sense ! No wonder you agree

FD, it is not about avoiding punishment , I don't care if I have to fly to Beagle Point back and forth to revive him/her (You know I don't !) , but right now, there is no way to invest time in an NPC when you can lose him/her on a stoopid bug.

 

[Ralph Vargr]

It's actually a quote of one of Sandro's posts in the DDF:

Thanks, Robert. Most illuminating.

 

[Deadspin]

Is it the Diamond Frogs or is it the Employment Agency?

We uh, we don't ask those kinds of questions in public sir.

 

[Tri Velo]

Support still has not responded or gotten back to me regarding my ticket. It's been almost 48 hours and no response. I'll give them another 24 hours (72 hours) to respond before I open another ticket. I don't even want to play until they do since I'm still a bit bitter about losing my ship, bounties, exploration data and crew due to a stupid bug that I could not avoid at all. I heard stories of other people whose tickets were responded within a few hours and everything restored. Maybe they are swamped with post 2.3.11 tickets?

My Journal log shows the following:
{ "timestamp":"2017-07-12T03:18:30Z", "event":"SupercruiseExit", "StarSystem":"Coeus", "Body":"Foster Terminal", "BodyType":"Station" }
{ "timestamp":"2017-07-12T03:18:33Z", "event":"Died" }



First I'm happily in supercruise approaching a station in an asteroid belt/ring that I've done a half dozen times previously. I exit supercruise normally and drop into normal space and immediately explode (died). The two lines above show it. No attacks, no warnings, no slow loss of shields, etc. Just exit to supercruise and then boom.

 

[CMDR-AD]

I wish there was more depth to dealing with NPC crew. Some ideas that might offer interesting play choices:

1. NPC crew can be hired at two pay rates.
   1. Full-time active. Paid as now, and they travel to follow the CMDR as far as possible (same as now).
   2. Part-time active. Paid only when aboard. They only travel when requested (and have a travel delay (but no cost), same as ships/modules).
2. NPC crew can survive ship destruction *if* suitable level Life Support is aboard ship.
3. Life Support Modules rated C or higher will provide for NPC crew survival via Escape Pod.
   1. Ship loss (not fighters) terminates the NPC crew contract, and if an Escape Pod was available, then:
   2. NPC crew *may* demand a bonus fee to re-hire with the CMDR, and *may* request better pay terms.
   3. Rarely, NPC crew *may* decline rehire offers, and thus be "lost".
   4. Higher grade life support modules (providing the NPC crew better conditions of survivability and chance of rescue) reduces the chances of these rehire demands. "A" rated Life Support has zero chance of declined rehire and minimal to zero rehire demands.

A chance to play some risk, some reward, some logistics (when and where to request a part-time NPC crew to travel) and some choices impact ship outfitting.