How do you feel about ganckers?

[Rebel Yell]

Personally, I've been pledged to a Power, first Arissa Lavigny-Duval, and then Aisling Duval, since Powerplay began. Whether it was hauling merits, or doing BGS work, I've only been attacked twice other Powerplayers, and both instances were weeks after its debut. Heck, I even spent a week running BGS missions in a hostile control system, just to see if I'd be attacked.

Yep i did the same for a few cycles in Open and never saw a PP sausage, just the usual muppets causing issues.

Nowadays all that happens is in a bunch of spots... like expansions (Fed/Imp) or some conflict zones under certain bubbles (following one's PP group Discord helps to find those "hot places"). Random encounters are pretty much rare, even at PP HQs as numbers are much lower and some core PP groups just don't fly in open by choice/convenience (<- not criticism, it's just what happens).

 

[Darrack]

Nowadays all that happens is in a bunch of spots... like expansions (Fed/Imp) or some conflict zones under certain bubbles (following one's PP group Discord helps to find those "hot places"). Random encounters are pretty much rare, even at PP HQs as numbers are much lower and some core PP groups just don't fly in open by choice/convenience (<- not criticism, it's just what happens).

But here's the thing, if Fdev could get rid of these hackers or create faster, harsher punishment for the muppets we could have open PP pvp with no issues.
Pledging would be an consent to pvp interaction but you couldn't target non PP players (this creates a safe Open mode for those that don't want player interaction) we can then blow each other to bits fairly.
I would be up for this with possibly an exclusion zone for each powers main home system to avoid the equivalent of spawn campers.

O7

 

[The Own of Noon]

How do you feel about ganckers?

They can make the true open mode intimidating for new players, and make an uncomfortable selling point to bring up. Like uh but its kind of like explaining there are bullies in the halls

Though it's a shame on the hall monitors er omnipol I guess as well.

Stay cagey you see suspicious CMDR behavior lure em out off the orbital plane, and tease them with little ship movements while they stare at you on the targeting, until they uh, realize you are having a bit of passive aggressive tease at em. If the ganker is too patient, eventually jump away (maybe jump back too!)

That's what one CMDR thinks about ganckers, CMDR husky o' snow

 

[Darrack]

They can make the true open mode intimidating for new players, and make an uncomfortable selling point to bring up. Like uh but its kind of like explaining there are bullies in the halls

Though it's a shame on the hall monitors er omnipol I guess as well.

Stay cagey you see suspicious CMDR behavior lure em out off the orbital plane, and tease them with little ship movements while they stare at you on the targeting, until they uh, realize you are having a bit of passive aggressive tease at em. If the ganker is too patient, eventually jump away (maybe jump back too!)

That's what one CMDR thinks about ganckers, CMDR husky o' snow

Your missing the point and why ED fails as an MMO.
Most folks don't want to play PvP MMOs, look at all the successful ones, they are PVE based.

The best ever mix was WOW when it was first released, go to the Crossroads and you could flag yourself PvP and have a laugh but also you could stay unflagged in the same area and just sit and chat with everyone watching the fun (this was before battlegrounds).
Now imagine an Open version of that in ED, i don't know a single Solo player that wouldn't hop into Open mode if that was the case.
Then you would have a true Open MMO.

O7

 

[SteveWW57]

Your missing the point and why ED fails as an MMO.
Most folks don't want to play PvP MMOs, look at all the successful ones, they are PVE based.

The best ever mix was WOW when it was first released, go to the Crossroads and you could flag yourself PvP and have a laugh but also you could stay unflagged in the same area and just sit and chat with everyone watching the fun (this was before battlegrounds).
Now imagine an Open version of that in ED, i don't know a single Solo player that wouldn't hop into Open mode if that was the case.
Then you would have a true Open MMO.

O7

But I suspect that it is unlikely that they would as there are other reasons for playing solo. smaller queues at the mail slot for one.

Steve

 

[Darrack]

But I suspect that it is unlikely that they would as there are other reasons for playing solo. smaller queues at the mail slot for one.

Steve

Agree, im not sure we could cope with an increase in the player base for Open without a drastic rethink of Stations.

O7

 

[The Own of Noon]

a hahaha!

well you could say feelings about gankers is an open issue!

 

[Hellrider]

What is this now a ganker appreciation thread?

More like support group for people which were killed by other player once, and after it never seen open, because nothing can interrupt their precious operations
o7

When I noticed this thread first time people just shared some stories, now we are in pit "noone which I know play it cause errrh. DANGER in 3 systems in whole galaxy".
I'm so sorry, but I completely dont know, when and where this all people play, because from my experience crusing majority of people just do own business, and max what they will do is "o7" on chat. Actually, even if ignoring "neutral" players I seen much more people which were open for some cooperation/wingup than gankers

 

[Schmack]

It's too difficult to say "player killing is wrong except in these cases". You either have to say it's wrong in every case - and ideally follow-up by also making it near-impossible to do anyway - or you have to accept that because there's too much context to fit in without having human judges and incident investigators running the justice system, it can't be treated any more severely than you'd want to treat the least severe case.

Three players are in a system - Terry the trader, Bob the bounty hunter, and Paula the pirate. To simplify, let's say that they all know each other by reputation, but none of them have any relevant bounties at the start of the day. The order of ship power goes Bob > Paula > Terry but all three are armed and capable of fighting, so it's not guaranteed that a combat win goes that way every time. In this context there are cases where a simple "if the attack is in-game illegal it should result in severe in-game punishment" approach is going to cause problems.


Case 1:
- Paula interdicts Terry, and demands some cargo. Terry, having seen Bob hanging around in supercruise too, reckons that help is on the way and refuses.
- Paula deploys hardpoints, Terry does likewise, and both open fire.
- As it happens, with both dodging, one of Terry's shots lands first
- Paula is still clean at this point, so Terry is going to get landed with the PK punishment (and Bob, despite knowing Terry is the "lawful" pilot, has much the same choice on their arrival - opening fire on Terry is fine; opening fire on the still-clean Paula will get him into trouble too)

Case 2:
- having successfully intimidated Terry at gunpoint into giving up some cargo, Paula is heading to a black market to cash out
- Bob sees Paula is wanted for assault and interdicts, opening fire immediately
- if Paula returns fire (an entirely reasonable thing to do; even NPC pirates will in similar situations!) she's going to face a PK punishment if Bob doesn't know when to quit

Case 3:
- after their last encounter, the next time Paula interdicts Terry he just dumps ten tonnes of cargo and runs
- Paula shrugs and starts picking it up
- Paula now has a fine for the interdiction, but no bounty (and even if she's clumsy and gets scanned coming into the station to sell up, it'll still be a fine)
- Bob arrives on the scene in time to see Paula pick up the last of the stolen cargo
- Paula grins and calmly wanders off to find another trader, knowing that Bob can't legally open fire

Case 4:
- the Thargoids have invaded the system, and Bob, Terry and Paula temporarily put aside their differences to grab an AX combat ship each and defend the station
- in the confusion of battle, some loose shots inevitably hit the others
- when Terry gets the wrong end of a Medusa's full firepower 10 seconds later, Bob ends up with a PK bounty.

Case 5:
- Terry is concentrating too much on avoiding Paula's interdiction attempt, and messes up his glide approach to a planetary port, coming in about 40km short
- Paula follows him down and opens fire, trying to grab some cargo before the system authorities show up
- With Terry not dodging as much as usual between the gravity and the need to get in a straight line quickly, a full round of fire from Paula hits the aft of his ship...
- ...and the shields go, shortly followed by the drives.
- Terry reaches for the reboot/repair switch, but it's too late
- technically it was the ground which killed him, but Paula still gets the blame.

The game is not sophisticated enough to implement rules of engagement to the degree needed to distinguish between "good" PvP and "bad" PvP or correctly assign responsibility for kills - and while alternative systems might adjust exactly which cases give intuitive results, they're always going to have odd cases - some of which, like the infamous Sidewinder with 1% hull, might be convenient enough to be weaponised. Even the fairly token punishments for player hostilities at the moment are sufficient to make you very unpopular if you leave crimes on in an AXCZ, for example.

Why is Paula clean, isn't interdiction and manifest scanning illegal? It's been awhile for pirating for me. If it's a crime and not a bounty, shouldn't it be a bounty without notoriety? That would resolve the issue. What clean ship is interdicting other clean ships with noble intentions?

Case 5 is clearly Paula's problem. If I shoot someone's tires out on the highway and they crash and die, I'm pretty sure I'd be arrested for more than firing a gun on a public roadway and property damage.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

Why is Paula clean, isn't interdiction and manifest scanning illegal? It's been awhile for pirating for me.

Interdiction of locally clean ships is illegal, but unless it's changed recently, only a fine.
(Changing it to a bounty means that Bob can't pre-emptively interdict Paula to get her out Terry's way, so opens up some other problems)

Manifest scanning is entirely legal (if done to a player with a fail-on-scan passenger, that player will wish it wasn't, but then you'd have to make KWS scanning illegal too)

 

[Schmack]

Interdiction of locally clean ships is illegal, but unless it's changed recently, only a fine.
(Changing it to a bounty means that Bob can't pre-emptively interdict Paula to get her out Terry's way, so opens up some other problems)

Manifest scanning is entirely legal (if done to a player with a fail-on-scan passenger, that player will wish it wasn't, but then you'd have to make KWS scanning illegal too)

Right, just as I couldn't run a car off the road just to keep said car from overtaking another car. I cannot act as the police based on assumptions I have even if I know the people involved. It seems consistent although maybe not as fun. I could still run them off the road but I'd be accepting the ramifications in lieu of the alternative had I not acted.

The C and P system has a lot of problems but I don't think it should consider intentions.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

Oh, certainly giving a bounty would also be a consistent rule - though it interacts a bit weirdly with the KWS:
- interdict locally-clean target with a bounty in a different jurisdiction
- you get a fine
- KWS to obtain a warrant (and therefore clearance to fire)
All fine: the bounty hunter having performed the KWS can now legally attack the pirate; the fine isn't large and can be covered from the bounty itself.

If interdiction results in a bounty, then while the bounty hunter can still legally attack the pirate, the pirate can also completely legally return fire, and when the police show up they'll go after the bounty hunter. So any idea of chasing after a pirate who's run away to bring them to justice - or getting revenge on the player who blew up your previous ship - has to go.

 

[Fixitman]

As far as gankers are concerned, I couldn't care less. The first two times I played in open, I was harassed, but not ganked. I play almost exclusively in solo or private group now. Problem solved.

Two things

You need to grind to get anything, ships credits engineering materials.

Two

Grinding for me is fun,

You've stated this numerous times in at least two threads. "Grind" is a derogatory term, meaning wasting time to get something done (I.E. not fun). You and I enjoy what others refer to as "grind" because it's not a grind to us. It's just working towards a goal. Calling it a grind when you enjoy it doesn't make much sense

Edit: Typo

 

[Chrystoph]

But you admit that the victims lose valuable exploration data, lose the time they spend to get it, lose credits they may have worked hard to grind up...and the gancker loses nothing. How is this system fair?

Or maybe they were running missions or trade runs. They lose unique items or whatever they were hauling, again losing materials and time

For the record, I am in on the side of people who are not gankers.

That said, the suggestion will be that if you do not want to ganked, you play in solo or private.

 

[husky of snow]

Correct. This is how ED has panned out since ages, and why nobody I personally know ever played open for longer than the time it took to understand this, which typically was rather quite short. If you are looking for an open experience in a space MMO allowing for varied approaches not being combat centric, go elsewhere. FDev could of course explain this to newcomers to avoid frustrating them to a degree that they'll quit the entire game right away, but then again, when has FDev ever cared about explaining things in ED for anyone? (well, admittedly they have added a bit of context and means over time, but you know what I mean)

That is my biggest concern. We all love the game and want to see it do well. Bullying new players is how you cause them to leave and not come back

 

[husky of snow]

One of the major problems with making it “harder” for player killers IME is that it's far easier for genuine griefers to trick inexperienced players into receiving those penalties, rather than catching the problem players in the net themselves. And of course, in a game like this one, there's quite a difference in perception between what is considered legitimate, though asymmetrical, PvP, and what is actual player killing.

OTOH, providing additional information to players is always a good move.

For example, I would consider PvP as a more legitimate option for BGS work if I could scan ships and see who they're currently running missions for, if any. If they're running missions for a faction I'm attacking, that gives me far more options, including communicating with them and perhaps getting them to run missions for another faction. In addition, if negotiations fail, they'll know the reason why I'm attacking. That moves the encounter from what seems to be random player killing to faction-based PvP.

It's a great idea, on paper. The problem is combat loving, which isn't that against tos?

 

[Frankymole]

As far as gankers are concerned, I could care less.

Yes, I care a great deal, too! I could care a lot less, but I don't.

 

[husky of snow]

They dont need to do anything, Solo mode solves the issue

O7

So how will a new player meet people? They don't know what they are doing. What about people who want to make friends?

 

[husky of snow]

But here's the thing, if Fdev could get rid of these hackers or create faster, harsher punishment for the muppets we could have open PP pvp with no issues.
Pledging would be an consent to pvp interaction but you couldn't target non PP players (this creates a safe Open mode for those that don't want player interaction) we can then blow each other to bits fairly.
I would be up for this with possibly an exclusion zone for each powers main home system to avoid the equivalent of spawn campers.

O7

That sounds like a great idea actually

 

[Darrack]

That sounds like a great idea actually

Not taking credit for it, as its basically WOWs flagging concept.

O7