Powerplay How is Powerplay not open only yet?

[Jockey79]

Please explain. Do you make mysteriously faster progress in a CG just because you are in a wing?

I never said anything about a CG, I said trade and trade vouchers. And it still stands, because even on a trade CG you're still earning from the trade goods and still getting vouchers, that a solo player isn't. The actual CG progress is irrelevant to the situation and the fact those playing in a wing are still earning more money compared to a solo player.

I mean, this game is strange and inconsistent and I wouldn't be all too surprised. But if not, I challenge you in the current CG to beat me in my shieldless Solo Cutter - you in Open with your wing against me in Solo.

Again, you're just trying to derail my point and I'm not falling for it. Trade for trade, actual cash earned is faster in a wing. So open has a bonus over solo, it doesn't need another one.

Also, a wing is not an automatic life saver.

Neither is solo, especially as you have no idea why someone is playing solo.

I have children with disabilities that enjoy gaming and there is no way they would ever survive in Open, they struggle with Solo and spend lots of time respawning.
Just because you may be comfortable and suited to open play, not everyone else is.

Your first sentence does not matter. We are not talking about voluntary challenges or options here, I am talking about what is possible and allowed.

And I'm pointing out open currently has advantages over solo but you're ignoring it and trying to derail it with CG talk.
Also you comment makes huge assumptions about how others are playing the game, so you don't actually have a point.

 

[Jockey79]

They didn't say all. They made a generalisation. It's the best you'll get out of me. Both your statements ring true. Call it subjective to me if necessary.

They implied all, by saying "because people who DONT play powerplay dont want it to be open only"
There is no stipulation they are only referring to some or part of the player base, which implies they mean "all" those who don't play.
Here is their quote;

so conclusion is: if you play powerplay you want it open only, but it cant be open only because people who DONT play powerplay dont want it to be open only.

wow

I increased the text size just to highlight the implied "all" in both parts.

 

[[VR] Bulbulunufus]

They implied all, by saying "because people who DONT play powerplay dont want it to be open only"
There is no stipulation they are only referring to some or part of the player base, which implies they mean "all" those who don't play.
Here is their quote;



I increased the text size just to highlight the implied "all" in both parts.

You are right, and have made this unmistakable. But I still read it as a generalisation phrased as an absolute for effect. But I will concede whatever point you desire to not have to continue discussing it .

 

[Jockey79]

You are right, and have made this unmistakable. But I still read it as a generalisation phrased as an absolute for effect. But I will concede whatever point you desire to not have to continue discussing it .

That has to be one of the best responses I've ever read here, I may steal it and use it myself. lol.

 

[Tarkus Venius]

assuming much?

plenty of folks who pp don't want it open only. or you just ignoring the posts from them?

I think a minority of regular power players don’t want open only, Those few, and a very loud handful of people with no stake in powerplay whatsoever who post here incessantly.

 

[Rubbernuke]

It's every idea from every PvP'er since Kickstarter.
So it's nothing new.

And of course, when some PvE changes were suggested, they get shouted down by PvP'ers.
Or we get the whole "you don't know the problem" spiel, as you've done to me. We know the problem, you just don't like a solution that isn't blasting unarmed trade ships.

And this demonstrates you don't get the problem. Someone, or something has to come after those transports. Either players do, or NPCs do (but actually properly) otherwise the only way to 'fight' is to haul more- which killed Powerplay, just as it killed CGs. The only reason people do the latter is for the crazy rewards, and even then fatigue sets in.

Powerplay is between competing groups, its insane that you think you can't go after someone else and stop them directly, or that better NPCs with enhanced PvE rules should do it.

The mode system is balanced because it is the same game, for everyone.

Its not though, is it?

Solo has unengineered, ultra light resistance
PG has solo but with as many friendlies as you can fit in against ultra light resistance, plus benefits of wing bonuses and things like heal beams
Open has hostile groups using all available weapons (not just a subset) and players can face lethal players- all the time with the same ultra light NPCs.

So how is that balanced?

Adding perks just because someone chooses to play with other people isn't balanced in any way.
Plus there are people who cannot play open, so why should they be penalised for not playing open?

Adding a weighting bonus is not perfect, but it would be the simplest way of balancing things, as well as incentivising going into open to risk more returns. Coupled with mega UM it might be enough.

For those who can;t play in open, give them something equally important to do. Thats what split mode roles does- solo and PG generate the fortification merits people in open move.

 

[Brrokk]

And this demonstrates you don't get the problem. Someone, or something has to come after those transports. Either players do, or NPCs do (but actually properly) otherwise the only way to 'fight' is to haul more- which killed Powerplay, just as it killed CGs. The only reason people do the latter is for the crazy rewards, and even then fatigue sets in.

Powerplay is between competing groups, its insane that you think you can't go after someone else and stop them directly, or that better NPCs with enhanced PvE rules should do it.


Its not though, is it?

Solo has unengineered, ultra light resistance
PG has solo but with as many friendlies as you can fit in against ultra light resistance, plus benefits of wing bonuses and things like heal beams
Open has hostile groups using all available weapons (not just a subset) and players can face lethal players- all the time with the same ultra light NPCs.

So how is that balanced?


Adding a weighting bonus is not perfect, but it would be the simplest way of balancing things, as well as incentivising going into open to risk more returns. Coupled with mega UM it might be enough.

For those who can;t play in open, give them something equally important to do. Thats what split mode roles does- solo and PG generate the fortification merits people in open move.

You're clearly describing the game you want to play as distinct from the game you've got, but I think you're too glib about dismissing the game you've got as "insane".

Yes, it is balanced. Everyone has access to all the same game features - the very definition of a balanced game.

Solo play might seem easy to you; it isn't for everyone. ED offers a good variety of game experiences and this is one reason for its popularity.

People are playing it. Some of them apparently like it.

It's not "insane" in Science Fiction terms that you can't directly oppose people. The idea of blockading an entire solar system is, however, pretty crazy. Think of how many cubic kilometres a single ship would have to guard. It's only possible to envisage it in ED because of the weird superluminal visibility in supercruise. I wouldn't like a further step away from realism.

I'm not completely against the proposals you're making although I do have the concern I've mentioned before, that I think Open-only enthusiasts are using you as a stepping stone. I'm sort-of satisfied from an SF point of view that blockading doesn't need to be a thing though.

 

[Rubbernuke]

You're clearly describing the game you want to play as distinct from the game you've got, but I think you're too glib about dismissing the game you've got as "insane".

Yes, it is balanced. Everyone has access to all the same game features - the very definition of a balanced game.

Solo play might seem easy to you; it isn't for everyone. ED offers a good variety of game experiences and this is one reason for its popularity.

People are playing it. Some of them apparently like it.

It's not "insane" in Science Fiction terms that you can't directly oppose people. The idea of blockading an entire solar system is, however, pretty crazy. Think of how many cubic kilometres a single ship would have to guard. It's only possible to envisage it in ED because of the weird superluminal visibility in supercruise. I wouldn't like a further step away from realism.

I'm not completely against the proposals you're making although I do have the concern I've mentioned before, that I think Open-only enthusiasts are using you as a stepping stone. I'm sort-of satisfied from an SF point of view that blockading doesn't need to be a thing though.

But its not balanced, because you are bypassing significant dangers of Open. PG has all the benefits of Open but with no player opposition. Solo has no real enemies v your very engineered ship.

Open is you v anyone you come across, plus NPCs (ineffectual as they are). But what reward is there for risking that much in a competitive feature?

What you are saying is everyone should use the most efficient mode available- which is really pushing everyone down to solo. From the current design perspective thats enforcing grind and removing any semblance of interaction beyond looking at a graph.

You even admit there are differences here:

Solo play might seem easy to you; it isn't for everyone.

Blockading is not in the traditional sense here either- its you slowing down the plans of another power or group enough for them to fail. The Kumo Crew did it with Antal, the Imperial groups have rules not to engage lurkers as not to create a log jam in capitals...I wonder why?

It always comes back to making the PvE layer of Powerplay much more substantial- for that to happen Powerplay needs to be drastically changed. If thats not happening then there are limited options available, such as weighting or using Open to leverage players as proxy NPCs.

 

[Jockey79]

And this demonstrates you don't get the problem.

Again, trying to dismiss me because you're acting like you're smarter - when you're not, quite the opposite.

The problem is, as Brrokk said, the game you bought is not the game you want.
You talk about it as if you're playing EVE Online, well I suggest if you want big faction fights people cannot avoid, then go play EVE Online.

Someone, or something has to come after those transports. Either players do, or NPCs do (but actually properly) otherwise the only way to 'fight' is to haul more- which killed Powerplay, just as it killed CGs. The only reason people do the latter is for the crazy rewards, and even then fatigue sets in.

Powerplay is between competing groups, its insane that you think you can't go after someone else and stop them directly, or that better NPCs with enhanced PvE rules should do it.

Again, you're making the assumption that YOU are the important factor here and you're not.
The whole game was designed so you are not important, at all (none of us as individuals are important). I can even put you on "block", using in-game tools and I can mode swap to avoid you.
Frontier built these options and even improved the block feature, so I can dismiss you at will from my game.

YOU ARE NOT IMPORTANT.

NPCs are the only thing that cannot be avoided, in any mode, regardless of "block" and regardless of uPnP or other network tricks - the NPCs are still there.
So there is your answer. Harder and increased number of PP NPCs that interdict more often. But you'll ignore this because it's not "pew pew", so you refuse to accept this is the answer.

Solo has unengineered, ultra light resistance
PG has solo but with as many friendlies as you can fit in against ultra light resistance, plus benefits of wing bonuses and things like heal beams
Open has hostile groups using all available weapons (not just a subset) and players can face lethal players- all the time with the same ultra light NPCs.

Nonsense round-up of the modes, but okay. Whatever. (hint: open can use heal beams as well, and has wing benefits)

So how is that balanced?

Because you have exactly the same access as everyone else.

Now if I had access to PGs and you didn't - then I'd agree, but guess what, everything I can do.....

So can you!!!!!

For those who can;t play in open, give them something equally important to do.

Patronising much?

Right now, Solo players are just as important as everyone else. Regardless of their abilities (or disabilities), age, home situations etc...
Any change is a direct nerf to them[/QUOTE]

 

[Rubbernuke]

Again, trying to dismiss me because you're acting like you're smarter - when you're not, quite the opposite.

The problem is, as Brrokk said, the game you bought is not the game you want.
You talk about it as if you're playing EVE Online, well I suggest if you want big faction fights people cannot avoid, then go play EVE Online.

No, this is how the PvE part of solo needs to behave (i.e. really hostile NPCs), or in Open with players because otherwise a great deal of Powerplay is hollow. Why do you think its seen as such a joke and abandoned by many?

Its not hard to grasp that hauling should be subject to attacks as to stop powers being able to support massive territories nearly automatically. I don't care who attacks, as long as someone does and to the point where people get destroyed. For a feature with eleven competing powers who hate each other and have explicit territories, its far to easy to traverse anywhere.

Again, you're making the assumption that YOU are the important factor here and you're not.
The whole game was designed so you are not important, at all (none of us as individuals are important). I can even put you on "block", using in-game tools and I can mode swap to avoid you.
Frontier built these options and even improved the block feature, so I can dismiss you at will from my game.

YOU ARE NOT IMPORTANT.

NPCs are the only thing that cannot be avoided, in any mode, regardless of "block" and regardless of uPnP or other network tricks - the NPCs are still there.
So there is your answer. Harder and increased number of PP NPCs that interdict more often. But you'll ignore this because it's not "pew pew", so you refuse to accept this is the answer.

And the block rules would need to be changed for an Open segment, simply because in an opt in feature in an opt in mode why should you opt out of danger when you are deliberately putting yourself in danger?

And I've explained in almost painful detail why 'simply' upping the numbers won't work. Feel free to ignore the many 'too many interdictions' threads about this, but the underlying issue still remains. Also, you seem a bit blind to the fact nearly all of my ideas are PvE based- only one has 'pew pew' in it, and that idea has stuff for solo and PG too, just not the same jobs...which leads me to conclude you have a general chip on your shoulder regards PvP players in general.

Nonsense round-up of the modes, but okay. Whatever. (hint: open can use heal beams as well, and has wing benefits)

Really? You are blind then.

Open indeed has wing benefits, and heal beams. But it also has other hostile groups with all weapons wanting to destroy you....its the only mode where you will face an equal or greater threat at all times and have to be wary of it. And on top of that you also have to be careful of any other player too.

How is a PG with all friendly players dangerous? Its Solo x 4 bonus payouts.

Because you have exactly the same access as everyone else.

Now if I had access to PGs and you didn't - then I'd agree, but guess what, everything I can do.....

So can you!!!!!

So your answer is......to go into an easier mode because other people are going into easier modes. Yes, that makes a very solid base for a competitive game. When I play a game, higher challenges provide a better reward. In this case I have to grind in silence because everyone is forced to play the most basic mode.

If the PvE was more stimulating and harder, this would be less of an issue.

Patronising much?

Right now, Solo players are just as important as everyone else. Regardless of their abilities (or disabilities), age, home situations etc...
Any change is a direct nerf to them

How is having something equally important 'patronizing'?

If you can't play in open because of whatever reason then you have an equally important task- its not hard to understand.

If fortification cargo is generated by solo and PG missions alone, then thats really really important. The bonus is that missions scale to NPCs better, can have lore flavouring, add variety, and be properly mode agnostic without undercutting Open.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Yes, absolutely. Even I can agree with that. But Open is not a solution. The changes need to be much more fundamental. Open would be a weak band-aid at best, and a pretty bad one at that. It wouldn't change the fundamental grind at all, it would just put a layer of pepper on it. The weak game concept would only be pushed into the background and PvP lovers might be a little happier (although I even have my doubts about that once the technical problems come to light).

You could also say "that would perfectly suit FDev that way". Because if it worked, it would be the simplest and laziest solution with the most minimalist means, or in other words: full FDev style. And I have to agree with one of the previous speakers in that the whole Open Only idea represents a mindset that clearly comes from the EVE universe. A game that is fundamentally 2-dimensional (and therefore doesn't have much in common with "space") and therefore blockades make sense at all. It's impossible to translate a 2-D into a 3-D game and a game design from a client-server network model into our peer-to-peer world. This would be indeed insane.

Its always:

Players become NPCs

NPCs become players

NPCs as they operate now don't have the spaces or capabilities to menace players enough- and really in an opt in feature like Powerplay the PvE is isolated enough to allow for something a step up from the regular game. There are numerous solutions for such PvE, but as you identified one way is to make players the NPCs and bring in more PvP.

Plus I disagree about an 'EvE mindset'. What its doing is providing people who want more structure to PvP have it, broadening the game. After all, why have two systems that at a gameplay level has one a shadow of the other? In whatever form Powerplay has to be more than what very old and incredibly basic BGS / CG style gameplay can offer.

I've also explained how the word 'blockade' has no meaning in this context too. In such cases its a game of catch for the attacker, and the defender occupying intruders. This 'blockade' is to slow down and deny a rival time- something that can throw a cycle if done enough. Mega UM is a form of blockade as well, because its forcing the defender to focus effort in one or more places, adding pressure.

 

[Rubbernuke]

You can spin it however you like, an "open only" solution will produce more trouble than pleasure. Reality will prove me right. Feel free to quote me on that if it ever comes to it.

Well out of all the available options its the only one that can make really complex actions that are emergent, and for that alone its worth considering for a dedicated part of Powerplay.

At the very worst it will be as it is now for some, while for others it will be busier due to mega UM, unified fort direction too, all the time solo and PG missions to stock cargo are going on. If the majority get that, then thats great. I'm under no illusion it will be perfect because it won't, its making something as unpredictable as possible given what is available.

To make a more robust long term PvE experience you still need teamplay of some sort though, hence with ideas like this https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threads/powerplay-in-solo.565581/page-9#post-8961161 it flips things into more players v NPCs, or https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threa...werplay-where-teamplay-means-survival.524174/

My guess FD will go for weighting rather than Open since its easy programmatically to do, and rocks the boat less.

 

[Jockey79]

I'd say you just fell for a 'natural echo chamber' since you can safely assume that you wouldn't reach the majority of solo PP players. FDev certainly knows better.

But one more comment on the balance aspect of the modes. There are at least 2 strong indicators that the current imbalance (I know, not everyone agrees) is exactly how it was intended, perhaps as a kind of freely selectable difficulty level: the past has proven that it would not be a challenge for FDev to bring really nasty NPCs. But the mountains of salt in the forum could hardly be ignored. Only the best combat pilots could cope with them and so these NPCs disappeared almost as quickly as they had come. The second indicator is NPC interdictions. These would certainly be even easier to adapt to the level of player interdictions than NPCs in terms of difficulty, but this has not happened so far. Everyone can make up their own mind about this.

I remember when they let SJA loose with the AI. OMG that was amazing.

What was annoying is that I'm not even a decent combat pilot, yet apart from the Elite rank NPCs I could still beat or escape most of them.
This whole "they're set to an average difficulty" is absolutely rubbish. They are set so people can AFK farm them, which is ridiculous.

I did hope for Power Play they'd bring back those harder NPC's because then there would always be the argument of them being optional.
But alas it never happened. They just copied the standard ones as RN pointed out. Such a shame and waste of SJA's skill and time.

 

[Jockey79]

My guess FD will go for weighting rather than Open since its easy programmatically to do, and rocks the boat less.

You guessed wrong, Frontier already walked away from that idea after it was suggested to Sandro.
Sandro liked the idea, but he was the only person who did and he was moved to another project.

Feel free to browse the forum archives and read it yourself from the PP design discussion threads.

Sandro did also have a list of PvE changes that would have been great to implement, but since he was moved and no other Dev will touch Power Play with a 10-foot stick. I wouldn't get my hopes up.

 

[Rubbernuke]

You guessed wrong, Frontier already walked away from that idea after it was suggested to Sandro.
Sandro liked the idea, but he was the only person who did and he was moved to another project.

Feel free to browse the forum archives and read it yourself from the PP design discussion threads.

Sandro did also have a list of PvE changes that would have been great to implement, but since he was moved and no other Dev will touch Power Play with a 10-foot stick. I wouldn't get my hopes up.

I know, I was there and read the same second flash topic. But in the end its up to FD, and what they can do. Weighting is far from ideal, but at least it rebalances the modes somewhat.

And if by 'PvE' changes you mean everything else on the first topic, a great deal of that is not new PvE gameplay. Half are anti 5C, a couple deal with tweaking CC calculations and only two (mega UM and Open Only) offer anything new. The former is just uncapping the fort / UM, and without Open (which brings people together, along with Sandros other idea of shrinking the BGS footprint) would just lead to more mode based grind than now.

Weighting at least preserves modes as they are, provides an incentive to go into Open. Will it work with uncapped UM? Possibly.

 

[amigacooke]

Don't worry OP, it's on the long list of things not to do.

 

[Kira Mikamy]

assuming much?

plenty of folks who pp don't want it open only. or you just ignoring the posts from them?

you know why they dont want? because they looooooose in open is salty people , just that (and also they cannot use BOT and 5C)

 

[Rubbernuke]

Here is a totally new PvE based Powerplay idea: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threa...-to-allow-power-collapse.586689/#post-9427332

 

[Jockey79]

I know, I was there and read the same second flash topic. But in the end its up to FD, and what they can do. Weighting is far from ideal, but at least it rebalances the modes somewhat.

In your opinion.

The fact it hasn't been done proves FD do not share that opinion, just as anyone in Solo or PGs doesn't either.

And if by 'PvE' changes you mean everything else on the first topic, a great deal of that is not new PvE gameplay. Half are anti 5C, a couple deal with tweaking CC calculations and only two (mega UM and Open Only) offer anything new. The former is just uncapping the fort / UM, and without Open (which brings people together, along with Sandros other idea of shrinking the BGS footprint) would just lead to more mode based grind than now.

Weighting at least preserves modes as they are, provides an incentive to go into Open. Will it work with uncapped UM? Possibly.

While you're right in that a lot of the changes were to deal with 5C, half your issues are 5C - which people can do in Open mode if they desire.
And if PvP'ers hadn't shouted down all the suggestions to limit the impact 5C has, you'd have a better PP right now.

Also, there is no "incentive" to play in open. If someone wants to play in open they will, if not they won't. Regardless of PP.
So trying to force open mode only encourages network tweaking, cheating or a loss of people playing it - either way, PP gets worse.

 

[Jockey79]

you know why they dont want? because they looooooose in open is salty people , just that (and also they cannot use BOT and 5C)

The only salt I see is PvP'ers crying I'm having fun in the Mobius Group without them.