How to avoid Gankers.

[[VR] M4st0d0n]

I take the "Author is Dead" approach here. Whatever was intended these mechanics lead to some really excellent organic experiences. Whether that's PvP in the strictest sense of the word or not I don't care. It's just too cool.

Well I take the "Author is trying to damage control and just makes things a lot worse" approach myself. We'll see what's brewed for pvp, or putting an end to it, in 2020 I guess.

I'd agree on BGS. It was hand on heart co-opted by all the E-napoleons, seen as that was all we had at the time in terms of metric based dominance. Worse, FDev fuelled that by grading their interactiobs with PF based on how good they were at dominating the BGS.

But I think you're wrong with PP. It seems to be designed (at its heart) specifically for that kind of gameplay.

PP failed hard to condense players around contested systems, because there is far too many of them. Three powers were largely enough, instead of the many pirate/scientologist/space elf flavors we got.

 

[Phisto Sobanii]

You ain't gonna git me, suckas!

hits 2D powerplant with ratchet

Goose... I'm gonna need a Crazy Ivan.

 

[znôrt]

PP failed hard to condense players around contested systems, because there is far too many of them. Three powers were largely enough, instead of the many pirate/scientologist/space elf flavors we got.

could be. imo it did because of the disconnect between the spreadsheet and the action.

such gameplay has usually strategists and action figures that need to be tied together. the strategy part catched up pretty soon. action turned into a grind competition which just isn't fun. grinders just gonna grind and not create any engaging gameplay. frontier created that race, and very specifically promoted it with faction modules. but the grinder is not an action figure, it's the first job you loose to automation, hence bots took over.

making it open-only was the most admirable and brave suggestion sandro ever made. this could have brought the action to an interesting level. i doubt it would have worked straight away because of other issues, but it would have been a step in the right direction and no doubt would have stimulated the community. and eventually, if showing success, could have prompted for a fix of those issues.

but it wasn't meant to be.

 

[amadeus1171]

Being Social is good for the game and the community.

Being Alt-tabbed in a discord channel while watching Netflix on your other monitor in a system with high chance of hostile combat is bad for your virtual bank balance.

Don't kill the vegans; eat them. Yes, eat them alive. It's more humane. lmao

 

[Goose4291]

Goose... I'm gonna need a Crazy Ivan.

You do realise I'm an ex-submariner, right?

 

[amadeus1171]

You do realise I'm an ex-submariner, right?

I'm a Navy veteran. I could make a joke about bubble heads, but I won't. :-D

 

[Phisto Sobanii]

You do realise I'm an ex-submariner, right?

I did not! And I love that movie!

bromance intensifies

 

[Bigmaec]

I did not! And I love that movie!

bromance intensifies

Every end of the hour Goose makes a crazy ivan to starboard.

 

[Schmack]

Please qualify this accusation. What about my subjective opinion is 'inaccurate'? Either provide evidence or apologise and retract.

You do realize these forums aren't for formal debate, right? I mean, let's not break out the logical fallacies list when most discussion here is informal.

 

[[VR] M4st0d0n]

could be. imo it did because of the disconnect between the spreadsheet and the action.

such gameplay has usually strategists and action figures that need to be tied together. the strategy part catched up pretty soon. action turned into a grind competition which just isn't fun. grinders just gonna grind and not create any engaging gameplay. frontier created that race, and very specifically promoted it with faction modules. but the grinder is not an action figure, it's the first job you loose to automation, hence bots took over.

making it open-only was the most admirable and brave suggestion sandro ever made. this could have brought the action to an interesting level. i doubt it would have worked straight away because of other issues, but it would have been a step in the right direction and no doubt would have stimulated the community. and eventually, if showing success, could have prompted for a fix of those issues.

but it wasn't meant to be.

Open only would have been a disaster. It was not a brave and bold design decision, just a continuation of having the game as a service. It was also very trollish and poorly phrased with the "consensual pvp" stuff, and I know what I'm talking about. I imagine having those same bots consensually and organically parked 24/24 blocking each and every station pads.

 

[Schmack]

Organic pvp in Elite is certainly the most ridiculous way of using "organic" as an adjective. It got electrolytes too? Casual pvp while describing griefing is as ridiculous. It's just not working. Even Fallout 76, as disastrous as the game is, has a pvp switch.

Everytime people use those term, as well as "emergent" to describe a lack of feature leading to people turning on each other due to a lack of content, they should just slap their forehead and realize they became product evangelists, apologizing and trying to find and name virtues for a placeholder feature in a videogame with a development hiatus.

This is a good point, but what do you suggest PvPers do since they aren't developers and only can play the game they have available to them?

Ganking and griefing aren't the same things. If you are griefed by unwanted combat then you should absolutely fly in a different mode. Even PvPers though get ganked and being ganked isn't necessarily a negative experience, if you like that sort of thing and you aren't focused on PvE stuff.

 

[Schmack]

Yeah, it can be a cop-out; not as bad as "Git gud, scrub".

Some of the advice that I consider useful I've learned about situational awareness in avoiding encounters you aren't prepared for so far...
(should be obvious)
CMDRs are hollow blips on your radar; NPCs are predictable, CMDRs are not.
If you're doing PowerPlay and in hostile territory, be alert.
(maybe less obvious)
If a CMDR is "Wanted" or "Hostile" (if you PowerPlay), assume that it's accurate and keep your distance.
If you're in a social hotspot like a CG, Engineer, special system (e.g. Sol, Shinrarta Dezhra, etc), be extra alert, like you're walking down a dark alley.
If you see hardpoints deployed (triangle blip), keep you distance and stay alert.
If you're in Lawless / Anarchy space, stay alert.
If you see CMDRs in SuperCruise following, scanning, and especially interdicting other CMDRs, then yes, expect that it could happen to you as well.

Anything useful to add that can be generally or even situationally useful?

Careful with the dark alley analogy. It leads to hockey and basketball.

 

[Goose4291]

Careful with the dark alley analogy. It leads to hockey and basketball.

+1 infraction for playing a competitive sport

 

[znôrt]

Open only would have been a disaster.

why?

It was not a brave and bold design decision, just a continuation of having the game as a service. It was also very trollish and poorly phrased with the "consensual pvp" stuff, and I know what I'm talking about. I imagine having those same bots consensually and organically parked 24/24 blocking each and every station pads.

sandro trolling the community really doesn't sound like a thoughtful analysis on your part he tried. it was an attempt to salvage pp, and imo sandro had very little allies in that. the idea of pp being pvp centric in nature is sound, it's just that the pvp implementation was barely more than a tick in a box, not really functional. that was not sandro's fault (and he likely even lacked the insight).

the idea is good in theory, he was probably oblivious at the start of the difficulties it would bring up in practice. 24h pad blocking is just a trivial example. most devs knew that pvp has never been but a bolted on feature. he was right, the 'pvp ethos' in the game was there, braben himself had pontificated on this more than once, and it is how you would expect open conflict to work ... the implementation just doesn't cut it, so frontier themselves shot the idea down.

how much this had to do with sandro leaving has had me wondering since.

 

[Schmack]

The problem with open only is the difficulty following or participating in a storyline. If you want to follow the storyline with your group, and work on a goal, you cannot calculate the griefing that seems to substitute for legit role play in this game. An example would be someone flying 20K LY to grief someone doing a storyline mission and streaming it. The griefer would get more love here than the person trying to provide the content. So Solo or private has to exist. If we wanted Fortnite we would be playing that instead.

 

[[VR] M4st0d0n]

This is a good point, but what do you suggest PvPers do since they aren't developers and only can play the game they have available to them?

Ganking and griefing aren't the same things. If you are griefed by unwanted combat then you should absolutely fly in a different mode. Even PvPers though get ganked and being ganked isn't necessarily a negative experience, if you like that sort of thing and you aren't focused on PvE stuff.

You have to assume every pvper is ganked or a ganker without proper matchmaking, because without that it's all about stacking odds, except when two groups agrees on some rules. Some of those guys already forced a rollback on a patch before it even hit, by sheer threats of ganking every CMDR in open and their dog. They should just keep doing what they do best, and keep on shooting their own foot until they bore out and moe systems are under permit lock.

why?



sandro trolling the community really doesn't sound like a thoughtful analysis on your part he tried. it was an attempt to salvage pp, and imo sandro had very little allies in that. the idea of pp being pvp centric in nature is sound, it's just that the pvp implementation was barely more than a tick in a box, not really functional. that was not sandro's fault (and he likely even lacked the insight).

the idea is good in theory, he was probably oblivious at the start of the difficulties it would bring up in practice. 24h pad blocking is just a trivial example. most devs knew that pvp has never been but a bolted on feature. he was right, the 'pvp ethos' in the game was there, braben himself had pontificated on this more than once, and it is how you would expect open conflict to work ... the implementation just doesn't cut it, so frontier themselves shot the idea down.

how much this had to do with sandro leaving has had me wondering since.

Development should be back to basics instead of pushing a beta feature in a vague direction. At best PvP is a zero sum game in term of incentives and the most sure way to win it is by not playing it at all. Open only wouldnt have fixed that. Also, ganking at Deciat is only a thing because it's practical. That's as simple as that. If something is somewhat practical, and somewhat fun for at least one guy, it will be done. Back when open only was discussed, it would still have been more practical to find pvp content in a starter system.

Edit : I want to believe some of Elite's placeholders are just not due to a sheer lack of resource, but a conscious attempt to troll players. Frontier actually sells videogames where people can organically aspire animal poopoo with a vaccum cleaner. We have to respect that.

 

[znôrt]

Development should be back to basics instead of pushing a beta feature in a vague direction.

it's an 'evolving' game. sandro pushed a lot of changes, some got through, some not, some antagonized the community. that's actually how much of this game was built: improvising. pp-revamp was only his last attempt, iirc?

At best PvP is a zero sum game in term of incentives and the most sure way to win it is by not playing it at all. Open only wouldnt have fixed that.

well that's indeed a statement. i get you don't appreciate the virtues of pvp, but there is actually a part of the community who does. of course no decision whatsoever, nor from the devs nor from the players, will make you like what you, from the start, don't like.

i get that this thread is vaguely about bringing those both worlds together and discuss how they interact. by 'necessity', they have to share the game, and it clearly addresses both, you see? surely nobody at this point expects much improvement, but it's still a hot topic and the discussion is there. you just placed yourself on one extreme of the fence, dunno what that changes. i should assume that you're merely here to say gankers are a pest to be get rid of? well, if that's so, then noted. but it doesn't really add much. it isn't going to happen either, so here we are.

Also, ganking at Deciat is only a thing because it's practical. That's as simple as that. If something is somewhat practical, and somewhat fun for at least one guy, it will be done. Back when open only was discussed, it would still have been more practical to find pvp content in a starter system.

well, of course we have gone from ganking to pvp to powerplay and back. i never closed myself to any suggestion to create dedicated pvp areas, quite the contrary. and there have been several but if you think of it, sandro's pp-open-only one was the single one that had even a remote possibility to become a thing. that said, ganking is inherent to open pvp, it is also sanctioned by frontier, it would still be there, with probably other means of mitigation ... and you still wouldn't like it

Edit : I want to believe some of Elite's placeholders are just not due to a sheer lack of resource, but a conscious attempt to troll players. Frontier actually sells videogames where people can organically aspire animal poopoo with a vaccum cleaner. We have to respect that.

new era

 

[Morbad]

And once again, I never said he was wrong. Just that my poopoo contained more carbons.

The definition I was using was evident by the context. To arbitrarily presume some other definition to change the argument, rather than interpreting things in it's original context are what Blackelaer, Phisto, myself, and others were taking issue with.

But as long as it needs a bandwith meter, twitch for streamsniping and having a tailored counterbuild, minimum 200 hours of grind to unlock stuff and premium ammo, and after all that you're still not sure the other guy dont use the trainer or would clog, let me just go with calling it poopoo.

I'm not sure where you're getting this stuff, or how you could think any of it was implied by anything I, or most others here, have been stating.

Most of Elite's PvP does not resemble this, certainly not the more organic encounters. Using negative outliers as the core of an argument is disingenuous.

BGS, powerplay and squadrons were never meant for pvp IMO...

Directly or otherwise that are PvP in and of themselves.

You have too many factions, and too many powers, to have meaningful pvp chokepoints around those features. I guess Colonia gameplay makes sense in that context.

Organic PvP neither requires, nor benefits from, artifical choke points.

There are plenty of natural ones...and if there weren't no one would be encountering hostile CMDRs with enough frequency to complain.

I imagine having those same bots consensually and organically parked 24/24 blocking each and every station pads.

Docking queues and timers on the other hand would greatly benefit verisimilitude in general.

If something is somewhat practical, and somewhat fun for at least one guy, it will be done.

Yes.

 

[[VR] M4st0d0n]

it's an 'evolving' game. sandro pushed a lot of changes, some got through, some not, some antagonized the community. that's actually how much of this game was built: improvising. pp-revamp was only his last attempt, iirc?



well that's indeed a statement. i get you don't appreciate the virtues of pvp, but there is actually a part of the community who does. of course no decision whatsoever, nor from the devs nor from the players, will make you like what you, from the start, don't like.

i get that this thread is vaguely about bringing those both worlds together and discuss how they interact. by 'necessity', they have to share the game, and it clearly addresses both, you see? surely nobody at this point expects much improvement, but it's still a hot topic and the discussion is there. you just placed yourself on one extreme of the fence, dunno what that changes. i should assume that you're merely here to say gankers are a pest to be get rid of? well, if that's so, then noted. but it doesn't really add much. it isn't going to happen either, so here we are.



well, of course we have gone from ganking to pvp to powerplay and back. i never closed myself to any suggestion to create dedicated pvp areas, quite the contrary. and there have been several but if you think of it, sandro's pp-open-only one was the single one that had even a remote possibility to become a thing. that said, ganking is inherent to open pvp, it is also sanctioned by frontier, it would still be there, with probably other means of mitigation ... and you still wouldn't like it



new era

Well the whole thread is just about blocking gankers really. I'm not an anti-ganker you see, I'm just a pro-blocker. Even if in reality I have zero people in my blocklist, I find it handy that people could ignore each others like in facebook. It's a feature, you dont like it but it will still be there as well, it's really practical, people put up guides about that and open only, who was a hard sell, wouldnt have stopped that neither.

 

[[VR] M4st0d0n]

snip

They should put a limit to multiquoting really... You're editing so much, taking one phrase here, one phrase there, at least put some bullet points.