How to fix Engineers powercreep without upsetting those who grinded for it?

[Han_Zen]

There isnt a problem to begin with though. The "power creep" is only deemed an issue by people who can't be bothered engineering or people who blame everything under the sun for their lack of skill but dont wish to improve.

Power creep is a problem because it lets players progress on a path that the NPCs can't follow. Both the outfitting and engineering are balanced as if ED was a single player game, with the Commander as the big hero with magic gear.

Doesn't work well in a multiplayer game.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

There isnt a problem to begin with though. The "power creep" is only deemed an issue by people who can't be bothered engineering or people who blame everything under the sun for their lack of skill but dont wish to improve.

It is an issue. Myself I don't engineer my offensive or defensive modules above G3 as it makes NPC's too easy and nothing is a challange and then it gets boring.

So yes it is an issue. Having God shields and Armour basically making yourself invulnerable to NPC's is not great and is not great gameplay either. So people that like PvP encounters but also like to PvE it becomes a real issue as you can't fly two ships at the same time.

I has nothing to do with being bothered to engineer my modules. I can do them all to G5 pretty easily if I want to.

 

[NeilF]

There isnt a problem to begin with though. The "power creep" is only deemed an issue by people who can't be bothered engineering or people who blame everything under the sun for their lack of skill but dont wish to improve.

Sorry, it's an issue because:-

1. It's basically pointless: So we double the performance of our ships, and then what? We've just raised our performance levels up say two fold and now how more powerful pew pew and shield etc?
2. For what improvement in gameplay: Wouldn't it be better if the depth and variety of what we could do with our ships was being improved by development effort instead of just more and more and more ways to improve our ship stats before returning to basically the same 3-4yr old gameplay?
3. Balance: I'd suggest The Engineers has dented PvE and PvP balance. ie: The game is in a worse state now than it was without The Engineers.

Note: None of the above has anything to do with not being bothered to grind at all too often vapid gameplay to undertake Engineering, or lack of skill... I'd suggest it comes from spotting pointless gameplay loops and time sponges, poorly balanced gameplay and poor allocations of development time, for what they are!

Consider how limited the gameplay is as regards the Thargoid Invasion. How little is being made of it. How shallow the experience of an alien invasion is (which FD have had years to prepare for). YET, we've had enough development time for The Engineers V1 and V2, simply so you can carry on doing what you were basically doing in the game before, but now with 2x pew pew...

 

[Freelancer Knux]

There is an enormous issue. If you can't see any of the myriad game design and balance problems caused or exacerbated by engineering as it exists today, then you need to work on your observation and critical thinking skills.

I fail to see how my critical thinking skill (is that a thing) or observation skills require work. Please point out the game design issue caused by engineers. You know what feel free to point out your issue with balance as well.

Power creep is a problem because it lets players progress on a path that the NPCs can't follow. Both the outfitting and engineering are balanced as if ED was a single player game, with the Commander as the big hero with magic gear.

Doesn't work well in a multiplayer game.

The NPCs in higher level missions are engineered and well engineering is more of an end game activity NPCs are meant to feel weak end game.

There is very little difference between buying A rated gear and engineering at this point in time as results are all fixed. So from a multiplayer game perspective the issue is minor.

It is an issue. Myself I don't engineer my offensive or defensive modules above G3 as it makes NPC's too easy and nothing is a challange and then it gets boring.

So yes it is an issue. Having God shields and Armour basically making yourself invulnerable to NPC's is not great and is not great gameplay either. So people that like PvP encounters but also like to PvE it becomes a real issue as you can't fly two ships at the same time.

I has nothing to do with being bothered to engineer my modules. I can do them all to G5 pretty easily if I want to.

Seems like you have already dealt with any power creep issues you might have had.

Sorry, it's an issue because:-

1. It's basically pointless: So we double the performance of our ships, and then what? We've just raised our performance levels up say two fold and now how more powerful pew pew and shield etc?
2. For what improvement in gameplay: Wouldn't it be better if the depth and variety of what we could do with our ships was being improved by development effort instead of just more and more and more ways to improve our ship stats before returning to basically the same 3-4yr old gameplay?
3. Balance: I'd suggest The Engineers has dented PvE and PvP balance. ie: The game is in a worse state now than it was without The Engineers.

Note: None of the above has anything to do with not being bothered to grind at all too often vapid gameplay to undertake Engineering, or lack of skill... I'd suggest it comes from spotting pointless gameplay loops and time sponges, poorly balanced gameplay and poor allocations of development time, for what they are!

Consider how limited the gameplay is as regards the Thargoid Invasion. How little is being made of it. How shallow the experience of an alien invasion is (which FD have had years to prepare for). YET, we've had enough development time for The Engineers V1 and V2, simply so you can carry on doing what you were basically doing in the game before, but now with 2x pew pew...

You seem bothered by lack of content while being against engineering which is content. The others had issues relating to power creep your points seems to be more of sideways dig at FD for the game not being how you want.

 

[NeilF]

You seem bothered by lack of content while being against engineering which is content. The others had issues relating to power creep your points seems to be more of sideways dig at FD for the game not being how you want.

Talk of sideways digs! This coming from someone who seemingly declares people voicing a different opinion about The Engineers, "...can't be bothered engineering" or "who blame everything under the sun for their lack of skill."

Maybe you just need to accept some people make considered comments that don't align your yours, and ditch the needless digs yourself? *sheesh - kettle black*


Anyway, to reply to your "comment", there's no suggestion The Engineers is not content. Eyebrows are being raised at how worthwhile and productive it is in the game from a balance, outcome and overall development effort POV.

Consider the current Thargoid invasion. Consider how few gameplay assets FD have available to them to make this invasion more interesting and engaging? Can we holo-me into fighters at Capital ships, Platforms and/or station to fend of Thargoid Scouts? Can we Wing up with NPCs to escort convoys through asteroid fields while defending them from Thargoid attacks? Can we open up a Powerplay type view of the Thargoid position and undertake tasks to affect it? Do we see stations under attack and the BGS reeling at the threat of the Thargoids?

No... But with years to prepare for the Thargoid invasion FD have deemed it development time well spent for The Engineers V1 and indeed V2. See the point?

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Seems like you have already dealt with any power creep issues you might have had.

Except that if any player owned ship comes on my radar I cannot risk any engagement and just have to do a Brave Sir Robin every single time.

Sorry, but no I haven't as there is no solution.

 

[Han_Zen]

The NPCs in higher level missions are engineered and well engineering is more of an end game activity NPCs are meant to feel weak end game.
There is very little difference between buying A rated gear and engineering at this point in time as results are all fixed. So from a multiplayer game perspective the issue is minor.

Power creep has had impact on the game on all levels. Both for PvP and Pve Combat.

The issues are that there is no natural combat situations that works for late stage players. It's not all an engineering issue. The entire build system is to blame.

- Combat between two max builds doesn't work because defense is OP compared to offence. TTK gets to long.
- Combat between maxed combat ship and maxed multi-role does not work because the stat difference is to high to overcome with superior skill.
- Combat between player and NPCs relies on numbers to even out the fight. Amount of hit points and cheesy tactics are more effective than flying ability.

What once was reasonable differences in pure numerical stats are now enormous differences. More fights are won with stats and fewer with skill. The few fights that are determined on skill, take to long.

 

[Frenotx]

I fail to see how my critical thinking skill (is that a thing) or observation skills require work. Please point out the game design issue caused by engineers. You know what feel free to point out your issue with balance as well.




The NPCs in higher level missions are engineered and well engineering is more of an end game activity NPCs are meant to feel weak end game.

There is very little difference between buying A rated gear and engineering at this point in time as results are all fixed. So from a multiplayer game perspective the issue is minor.



Seems like you have already dealt with any power creep issues you might have had.



You seem bothered by lack of content while being against engineering which is content. The others had issues relating to power creep your points seems to be more of sideways dig at FD for the game not being how you want.

1) Huge divide created between engineered, and factory-spec ships.
2) Since all players can interact in the same environment, engineering is mandatory to remain remotely competitive.
3) Engineering is part of an optional DLC, so people who just own the base game are screwed.
4) NPCs need to be balanced to be fair vs. factory spec ships to keep the game from being impractically.difficult for players that only own the base game
5) This leads to PvE content being generally laughably easy for an engineered ship. Since engineering your ship is required to remain competitive, players are effectively forced to make their PvE experience trivial and boring
6) Buying a new ship no longer feels like, "Cool! I've upgraded my ship, and am making progress!" Instead, buying a new ship feels like, "Oh jeeze. I have so many parts I have to engineer, and so many materials to gather. Better get grinding."
7) A-rated is meaningless, as an A-rated ship is trash compared to an engineered ship.
8) The enormous pressure and importance of engineering has made material gathering a huge focus of Elite, instead of credit gathering. Credits are universal and can be gathered from nearly every activity. Materials are specific, and can often only be gathered from very specific activities. The net effect is players are forced to spend game-playing-time doing things they don't enjoy.
9) Balance issues like the problems with defense stacking are HUGELY amplified.

I could go on, but I'm both tired in the general sense, and tired of going over these problems over and over. For more information, just look through some of the threads I've started. "How FDev Empowered Gankers..." etc. is a recent, relevant one.

 

[babelfisch]

1) Huge divide created between engineered, and factory-spec ships.
2) Since all players can interact in the same environment, engineering is mandatory to remain remotely competitive.
3) Engineering is part of an optional DLC, so people who just own the base game are screwed.
4) NPCs need to be balanced to be fair vs. factory spec ships to keep the game from being impractically.difficult for players that only own the base game
5) This leads to PvE content being generally laughably easy for an engineered ship. Since engineering your ship is required to remain competitive, players are effectively forced to make their PvE experience trivial and boring
6) Buying a new ship no longer feels like, "Cool! I've upgraded my ship, and am making progress!" Instead, buying a new ship feels like, "Oh jeeze. I have so many parts I have to engineer, and so many materials to gather. Better get grinding."
7) A-rated is meaningless, as an A-rated ship is trash compared to an engineered ship.
8) The enormous pressure and importance of engineering has made material gathering a huge focus of Elite, instead of credit gathering. Credits are universal and can be gathered from nearly every activity. Materials are specific, and can often only be gathered from very specific activities. The net effect is players are forced to spend game-playing-time doing things they don't enjoy.
9) Balance issues like the problems with defense stacking are HUGELY amplified.

I could go on, but I'm both tired in the general sense, and tired of going over these problems over and over. For more information, just look through some of the threads I've started. "How FDev Empowered Gankers..." etc. is a recent, relevant one.

This. With emphasis on 7. and 8.

The problem with power creep is not that some people can't be bothered to grind, but that it effectively makes already present content of the game meaningless. This will continue with the next big batch of new ships and modules.

 

[GunnerBill]

The simple way (and IMO interesting way) to deal with this is to incrementally upgrade modules and hulls over time.

Thus the 3304 Corvette or A rated module is better than the 3303 seasons item.

Eventually even fully engineered items become obsolete.

To keep up players have to buy new items then engineer them(if they want to).

You can add a whole load if speculation as to the improvements made to next seasons product and even factor in “regulatory” effects if you really want to rebalance something.

Just think about yearly CO2 targets for motor cars.

It would also had some use back for creds.

You can of course sell your old modules but back at a scaled price depending on how old they are.

 

[NeilF]

Power creep has had impact on the game on all levels. Both for PvP and Pve Combat.

The issues are that there is no natural combat situations that works for late stage players. It's not all an engineering issue. The entire build system is to blame.

- Combat between two max builds doesn't work because defense is OP compared to offence. TTK gets to long.
- Combat between maxed combat ship and maxed multi-role does not work because the stat difference is to high to overcome with superior skill.
- Combat between player and NPCs relies on numbers to even out the fight. Amount of hit points and cheesy tactics are more effective than flying ability.

What once was reasonable differences in pure numerical stats are now enormous differences. More fights are won with stats and fewer with skill. The few fights that are determined on skill, take to long.

Agreed. And with all the magic side effects, even more balancing issues are created. ie: Meaning outcomes are more often decided in outfitting rather than by skill.

All by FD's desire to needlessly create gameplay based on effort to upgrade your ship, rather than development effort instead spent on adding more interesting and involved things for you to do in your ship...

We're approaching 4yrs, and only now are we getting clear efforts to finally move 4yr old placeholder gameplay forwards. Yes there's been time for Engineers V1 and V2...


Can you imagine when FD starting offering G6+ upgrades?

 

[babelfisch]

The simple way (and IMO interesting way) to deal with this is to incrementally upgrade modules and hulls over time.

Thus the 3304 Corvette or A rated module is better than the 3303 seasons item.

Eventually even fully engineered items become obsolete.

To keep up players have to buy new items then engineer them(if they want to).

You can add a whole load if speculation as to the improvements made to next seasons product and even factor in “regulatory” effects if you really want to rebalance something.

Just think about yearly CO2 targets for motor cars.

It would also had some use back for creds.

You can of course sell your old modules but back at a scaled price depending on how old they are.

That's essentially what I suggested, isn't it?

 

[DoppelGanger]

1) Huge divide created between engineered, and factory-spec ships.
2) Since all players can interact in the same environment, engineering is mandatory to remain remotely competitive.
3) Engineering is part of an optional DLC, so people who just own the base game are screwed.
4) NPCs need to be balanced to be fair vs. factory spec ships to keep the game from being impractically.difficult for players that only own the base game
5) This leads to PvE content being generally laughably easy for an engineered ship. Since engineering your ship is required to remain competitive, players are effectively forced to make their PvE experience trivial and boring
6) Buying a new ship no longer feels like, "Cool! I've upgraded my ship, and am making progress!" Instead, buying a new ship feels like, "Oh jeeze. I have so many parts I have to engineer, and so many materials to gather. Better get grinding."
7) A-rated is meaningless, as an A-rated ship is trash compared to an engineered ship.
8) The enormous pressure and importance of engineering has made material gathering a huge focus of Elite, instead of credit gathering. Credits are universal and can be gathered from nearly every activity. Materials are specific, and can often only be gathered from very specific activities. The net effect is players are forced to spend game-playing-time doing things they don't enjoy.
9) Balance issues like the problems with defense stacking are HUGELY amplified.

I could go on, but I'm both tired in the general sense, and tired of going over these problems over and over. For more information, just look through some of the threads I've started. "How FDev Empowered Gankers..." etc. is a recent, relevant one.

Agreed with everything here, especially the part:

6) Buying a new ship no longer feels like, "Cool! I've upgraded my ship, and am making progress!" Instead, buying a new ship feels like, "Oh jeeze. I have so many parts I have to engineer, and so many materials to gather. Better get grinding."

 

[GunnerBill]

That's essentially what I suggested, isn't it?

Not really, you suggested a 1.5 base multiplier with no context or reason other than “just because balance”.

I think I’ve added some context to the concept so that it could be used continuously in a positive way and not just as a one off nerfing.

IMO of course

 

[Sylow]

1) Huge divide created between engineered, and factory-spec ships.
2) Since all players can interact in the same environment, engineering is mandatory to remain remotely competitive.
3) Engineering is part of an optional DLC, so people who just own the base game are screwed.
4) NPCs need to be balanced to be fair vs. factory spec ships to keep the game from being impractically.difficult for players that only own the base game
5) This leads to PvE content being generally laughably easy for an engineered ship. Since engineering your ship is required to remain competitive, players are effectively forced to make their PvE experience trivial and boring
6) Buying a new ship no longer feels like, "Cool! I've upgraded my ship, and am making progress!" Instead, buying a new ship feels like, "Oh jeeze. I have so many parts I have to engineer, and so many materials to gather. Better get grinding."
7) A-rated is meaningless, as an A-rated ship is trash compared to an engineered ship.
8) The enormous pressure and importance of engineering has made material gathering a huge focus of Elite, instead of credit gathering. Credits are universal and can be gathered from nearly every activity. Materials are specific, and can often only be gathered from very specific activities. The net effect is players are forced to spend game-playing-time doing things they don't enjoy.
9) Balance issues like the problems with defense stacking are HUGELY amplified.

I could go on, but I'm both tired in the general sense, and tired of going over these problems over and over. For more information, just look through some of the threads I've started. "How FDev Empowered Gankers..." etc. is a recent, relevant one.

.
Very much this, and especially #6. It is one of the key reasons, why several of my friends stopped playing.
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For me personally #4 is the painful part. Engineering ships makes content trivial and thus boring. But not engineering my ships feels like i am intentionally gimping myself and being foolish. And as long as the gap between basic and engineered ships is as wide as it is, nobody with just half a brain can honestly expect FD to be able to fix this.
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What i mean is that NPCs already were scaled up a bit since engineers were implemented. Which already drove a number of players away and made it much harder for the game to acquire and keep new players. I know it's very hard to many here to remember how steep this games learning curve actually is when you are new. We play a lot, so of course we got better. It would be a shame if we didn't. Also many of us have prior experience with the old Elite, Frontier and a number of other spaceship games, flightsims and the likes. It might be astonishing, but we are not the average gamer. (Point in case, a friend from another game, who gave this game a try during one of the sales had to learn what the terms pitch and yaw actually meant! ) Also it might be hard for some people here to accept, but any online game which is unable to acquire and keep new players is doomed.
.
So currently the game is trapped. Make NPCs even harder and you kill off even more of the casual part of the playerbase. And surprisingly for many, that's the most important part of the playerbase. Their item shop purchases keep the game up and running for all of us. At the same time, for many of us here, the more active players, more interesting and more challenging PvE content would be very much welcome. Remember how much fun the new wing missions were for a while? We by now also managed to cheese them by more engineering. It would be great to have content which would even be a challenge in a fully engineered ship. But creating such content with the curent power scaling of engineers violates the much more important point i just made: it would be utterly foolish to hurt the casual playerbase even more. (For the game to be able to focus on the "hardcore" playerbase, without caring for the casuals, FD would probably have to implement and offer a new monocle every month, while requiring every active player to buy the new monocle to keep flying... )
.

 

[Sylow]

The simple way (and IMO interesting way) to deal with this is to incrementally upgrade modules and hulls over time.

Thus the 3304 Corvette or A rated module is better than the 3303 seasons item.

Eventually even fully engineered items become obsolete.

To keep up players have to buy new items then engineer them(if they want to).

You can add a whole load if speculation as to the improvements made to next seasons product and even factor in “regulatory” effects if you really want to rebalance something.

Just think about yearly CO2 targets for motor cars.

It would also had some use back for creds.

You can of course sell your old modules but back at a scaled price depending on how old they are.

.
No, it wouldn't do the job. This suggestion would only add more power-creep. I mean, if the 3003 shields plus boosters can be engineered to +800% shield strength and the 3004 shields plus boosters are 10% better and still can be engineered to +800% shield strength, it just means new grind to have 10% better shields.
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More workable: 3003 shields plus boosters can be engineered to +800% shield strength. The 3004 shields come with double the base capacity, but with all engineering done, you can only add +400% shield strength. (See what i mean. In other games, +2% of one stat is progress. Why do we need 800% here? ) Then rinse and repeat a few times, and we could have a system where new shields have +600% of the current shields, but engineering can "only" add a +25% bonus. A plus 25% is still a significant advantage and sure worth working for, but it would not be the mountain it currently is. At the same time, ships being more durable in general would also allow the introduction of the 3004 version of weapons, carrying more punch.
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That would mean that fully engineered equipment would still remain top of the line, while being able to reduce the massive engineering currently creates and providing the chance to finally also create actually challenging content again.
.

 

[Vedmo]

Do people seriously expect a ship build from the first iteration of the game to be viable years down the road? If you don't want to buy new expansions in a game, that's your choice, but game development should not be hindered by those wanting to be locked in time. It's a persistent online game, power creep is to be expected, and power creep is not an inherently bad thing. Not claiming there aren't issues, or that it's being implemented perfectly, just saying if people with just the base game are feeling like there being left behind, that's probably a good thing for those moving forward with game.

 

[PeLucheuh]

At this point, i personaly wish that in Q4, the bubble, engineers and our current assets will get wiped (except money/rank/rep). Then tech 2 ships and modules will appear. Kind of a "restart"

One can dream though

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

At this point, i personaly wish that in Q4, the bubble, engineers and our current assets will get wiped (except money/rank/rep). Then tech 2 ships and modules will appear. Kind of a "restart"

One can dream though

Your commander steps out of a shower (legs confirmed, lol) and it was all a dream.

 

[babelfisch]

Not really, you suggested a 1.5 base multiplier with no context or reason other than “just because balance”.

I think I’ve added some context to the concept so that it could be used continuously in a positive way and not just as a one off nerfing.

IMO of course

Hmmmm....

Honestly I don't get this either?

Similar to this small ships should be able to take on big ships guff. I get the feeling that all these people moaning about this disparity are FPS players who expect to be able to pick up a couple of power-ups then hop, skip and jump their way to the flag.

Yay but that's not Elite.