Modes How to maybe solve one of the problems of pvp in open...

[Aashenfox]

Ummm, I think you're going to have to explain that one to me.

On the one hand, I guess I'd expect an F1 car to gallop off into the lead of a BTC race. OTOH, I suspect that as soon as it banged wheels with another car (as is common in BTC) it'd be damaged so badly that it wouldn't be able to continue in the race.

And I'm genuinely not at all sure how that applies to the idea you're advocating.

Your analogy would seem to suggest that an F1 car (our apex combat ships) is just fundamentally so much better at what it does than a Touring Car (our regular ships) that limiting/restricting/regulating/controlling various minor facets of the F1 car still isn't going to allow the Touring Cars to be competitive.

Also, while I'm at it, I'd also suggest that doing so is simply going to annoy all the people who actually WANT to participate in a full-on F1 race and you're still not going to convince Touring Car drivers that they have a chance of competing with an F1 car.

All of which rather supports my assertion that this is a pointless idea, which I don't think was the intention of your analogy. [where is it]

No problem. Here we go...

People going about their business in pve combat ships (disco scanner, fuel scoop, a small cargo rack, maybe some limpets, maybe a docking computer) are all participating in a race with everyone else at their level, all pve. Then along comes Mr Potter or one of his cohorts in his pvp ship. In case it wasn't obvious, the touring car race is the pve game going on and Mr Potter represents Mr Hamilton coming along in an F1 car and claiming a great victory in his holy war. The F1 races are in CQC mate.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

Shield generator, SBs and SCBs for shields. Armor, HRP MRPs for hull/modules. All adds to the total of hits you can take.

Of these, only the Shield Generator and Armor makes sense. They work as they should.

SBs are hopless. They give the same percentage boost to Class 8 prismatic as they give to a 2E shield. Even has the same power requirement.
HRPs and MRPs are strange as well. They are passive modules(no power draw), yet they can protect the entire ship from one slot on board.
SCBs could have made sense unless they were allowed to bypass the PD.

They aren't needed. They make it possible to have OP defenses and they have lead to the introduction of silly MMO potion type special effects for weapons, to counter them.

I'll call that subjective opinion.

 

[Zambrick]

Just thinking out loud, I haven't given this full processing power yet, but let's get a discussion going and see...

The way I see it, the problem with pvping in open, is that the people who are just minding their own business, doing CGs, missions, whatever, are in ships that have possibly 'some' armor, 'some' shield batteries, but they'll be mostly technical, non military modules, limpet controllers, cargo racks, scanners, docking computer, etc etc.

The griefers on the other hand and those out looking for a pvp fight in general, have a military item in every single slot. Their ships are useful for NOTHING except dogfighting, they even have to dock to refuel and visit a nav beacon to scan a system. ANYTHING less than that is BADLY suboptimal. I enjoyed building my FAS, it is overpowered as hell, completely ridiculous, over 9000 (lol, unintentional reference there) effective armor against all conventional attacks (shieldless), but like that, I can only do one thing. Fight other players. I'm not even optimal for fighting one on one against NPCs as I don't have my warrant scanner.

This creates a huge disparity, the murderers are in untouchable ships and the victims are in squishy mission runners.

So, why not simply make it so you can't have a military item in every slot? If every ship was restricted in terms of military slots, you could still have a pvp meta ship and still run a few missions, and otherwise play the game, not having to refuel at stations, being able to disco scan and fuel scoop, and STILL pvp at the highest level the next minute.

I know if this was implemented, I would play in open from that moment on, knowing that I could be competitive against griefers in my mission runner, it would FREE me to play in open and LOOK FORWARD to my next interdiction. I could know I wouldn't have to face someone who was 50% stronger than me before skill even came into play.

Just a thought.

They could re work the way ships work entirely and allow a role to be chosen.

The first and foremost thing that must go away is the ability to target modules. That is one of the most terrible design choices I have ever seen. Yes Modules can exist in the game and the damage to them can occur, but literally leave it up to RNG roles to determine the extent of the damage. The entirety of combat is based upon the destruction of the modules first, then killing for the lolz after. That is a problem.

Another example Pirate ships. They are not the equivalent of Naval Destroyer class ships or Aircraft carriers. In Elite Dangerous they are. Every ship is fitted for full on military level combat when you are outfighting for combat. Pirates are supposed to be poor people who have no other means of bettering themselves other than taking extreme measures and perform piracy. The fact that everyone must be a part of the Pilots Federation is the cause. How can you have a super poor member of the Pilots Fed. It doesnt make sense.

Thirdly Roles for ships need to be thought out and all versions need to be made Dangerous, Agile, or strong in some manner. I mean our current shipping fleets on earth right now are contracting out to Private Military peronal to protect their ships. They have everything from 50 cal's and RPGs as well as other conventional weapons protecting ships. We dont have that in ED.

Trading ships need to be either extremely extremely tanky or the need to be moderately tanky and dangerous when you get close. They should have access to defensive weapons that would make Pirates think twice about attacking. It would be like running face first into a lawn mower. The closer you get the nastier it gets.

Combat ships need to be very short range in jump range and a good mix between decent armor and great firepower. However they need to be separated into class ships.
Military combat ships and Civilian Combat ships. If you have good standing and are considered a law abiding citizen, then you can have access Military level upgrades and Mods. However since its very high tech stuff its heavy and it makes your ships less agile.

If you are a Pirate and cannot access the Military level Mods, then your ships cannot become as powerful as the Military type ships, However all of your ships should much much more manuverable and agile. You would have access to the same A rated modules that you have now, but they would not be as powerful as Military grade modules. The A grade modules would allow you access very specific Engineering effects that would make the Pirate ships much harder to hit.

Exploration ships should fill the scout role in the ED universe. They can jump very long range and are the fastest ships in the game. Combat wise, they have access to long range weapons and fill the role of scouts in combat. For example. They could rely on stealth and speed to win the day.

But who knows what they will do. We got a couple of weeks until the October announcement.

 

[Stealthie]

No problem. Here we go...

People going about their business in pve combat ships (disco scanner, fuel scoop, a small cargo rack, maybe some limpets, maybe a docking computer) are all participating in a race with everyone else at their level, all pve. Then along comes Mr Potter or one of his cohorts in his pvp ship. In case it wasn't obvious, the touring car race is the pve game going on and Mr Potter represents Mr Hamilton coming along in an F1 car and claiming a great victory in his holy war. The F1 races are in CQC mate.

I think I get it.

Honestly, I'm not trying to trip you up, here, or make you contradict yourself but it seems like you've moved the goalposts.

Are you now saying that this is an idea intended to reduce the power of combat ships, when involved in fights with each other?
I was under the impression that the idea was to make it a bit easier for non-combat ships to defend themselves against attacks.

If we're saying it's now intended to "level the playing field" between combat ships I'm still don't see any benefit.

To go back to our F1 analogy, it's like somebody suggesting the the Mercedes & Ferrari cars are much better than everybody else so we should ban DRS in order to give everybody else a chance.
Trouble is, with DRS banned all the other cars are that much worse as well so, in all likelihood, Mercedes and Ferrari will continue to dominate by virtue of all their other advantages.

And, meanwhile, I'll have to remind you of what I previously said about losing sight of your original goal.
If we're trying to "level the playing field" between combat ships, we're not doing anything to reduce the likelihood of non-combat ships getting destroyed at the hands of combat ships.
And, in the process, all you've done is "dumb down" the potential for building superior combat ships.

Fundamentally, if we're talking about ships that serve similar purposes, as long as every upgrade is available to every CMDR, I see no reason to artificially restrict them to any artificial "lowest common denominator".

 

[The Replicated Man]

Just wanted to add my small opinion.

Most people say "If you click on open play you are consenting to pvp!" I disagree with that statement. Hear me out.

Ok so you just returned from the void and have 20 mill worth of exploration data, You head to the nearest station and get ripped out of space by a gang of FDL's. You get instantly killed and lose all your money. Kinda seems unfair right?

Now lets take it from the griefers point of view. Oh Guys! There is this juicy unshielded asp that absolutely poses NO threat to our GOD MODE ships. Lets make his day turn from a pleasant one to a terrible one!

So lets be honest guys. We love pvp but killing a weaker player is just unfair. There is no challenge and it makes you look like a total troll .

 

[Ian Skippy]

Just wanted to add my small opinion.

Most people say "If you click on open play you are consenting to pvp!" I disagree with that statement. Hear me out.

Ok so you just returned from the void and have 20 mill worth of exploration data, You head to the nearest station and get ripped out of space by a gang of FDL's. You get instantly killed and lose all your money. Kinda seems unfair right?

Now lets take it from the griefers point of view. Oh Guys! There is this juicy unshielded asp that absolutely poses NO threat to our GOD MODE ships. Lets make his day turn from a pleasant one to a terrible one!

So lets be honest guys. We love pvp but killing a weaker player is just unfair. There is no challenge and it makes you look like a total troll .

It has nothing to do with 'fair'. When you click Open, you chose to go to the mode where you can encounter other people, who can do as they please within the rules of the game. If you think that is unfair, and everyone can have their own opinion, then dont click the button. Beyond that, flying shieldless is just dumb and people should blame themselves for whatever happens next.

"It would have worked if only..." isnt an argument. Your job is to prepare your ship for what does happen, not what you wish would happen. The primary reason people die against their wish in PvP is not how 'unfair' it is, but how poorly people prepare, how little attention they pay, the total absence of any planning and the inability to take any kind of responsibility for once actions. Cmdrs who deal with these issues will find that it doesnt matter that other people are 'unfair', you'll survive. Unlike the people complaining about fairness.

 

[IndigoWyrd]

There is no problem with PVP in Open.
You see a ship, you shoot a ship.
If you do enough damage, that ship goes boom.

PVP works just fine.

We know this sort of thing happens in Open.

Can you see the solution?

 

[thirstyfish]

It has nothing to do with 'fair'. When you click Open, you chose to go to the mode where you can encounter other people, who can do as they please within the rules of the game. If you think that is unfair, and everyone can have their own opinion, then dont click the button. Beyond that, flying shieldless is just dumb and people should blame themselves for whatever happens next.

"It would have worked if only..." isnt an argument. Your job is to prepare your ship for what does happen, not what you wish would happen. The primary reason people die against their wish in PvP is not how 'unfair' it is, but how poorly people prepare, how little attention they pay, the total absence of any planning and the inability to take any kind of responsibility for once actions. Cmdrs who deal with these issues will find that it doesnt matter that other people are 'unfair', you'll survive. Unlike the people complaining about fairness.

By not preparing, I assume you mean not outfitting a full combat fit FDL or corvette with over engineered, god-rolled modules?

(playin Devil's advocate here, don't get worked up, I'll just make it worse)

 

[Aashenfox]

There is no problem with PVP in Open.
You see a ship, you shoot a ship.
If you do enough damage, that ship goes boom.

PVP works just fine.

We know this sort of thing happens in Open.

Can you see the solution?

Yep, it's in the first post and gets refined all through the thread, ending up with pretty much anyone with a brain admitting that the problem is really HRPs and Shield Boosters, not slots, and that we need better diminishing returns. There, I saved you a LOT of reading.

There's nothing wrong with open, but there are some balance issues with loadouts. Those two subjects are not related.

 

[Stealthie]

Just wanted to add my small opinion.

Most people say "If you click on open play you are consenting to pvp!" I disagree with that statement. Hear me out.

Ok so you just returned from the void and have 20 mill worth of exploration data, You head to the nearest station and get ripped out of space by a gang of FDL's. You get instantly killed and lose all your money. Kinda seems unfair right?

Now lets take it from the griefers point of view. Oh Guys! There is this juicy unshielded asp that absolutely poses NO threat to our GOD MODE ships. Lets make his day turn from a pleasant one to a terrible one!

So lets be honest guys. We love pvp but killing a weaker player is just unfair. There is no challenge and it makes you look like a total troll .

The explorer has my absolute sympathy and the FdL jockeys have my contempt but that doesn't mean it's "unfair" and it shouldn't mean they should be compelled to be "fair" either.

As an extreme example, it serves to highlight to flaw in this idea though.
Would you want to try and find a way to "nerf" the FdLs so the explorer had any kind of chance against them?
Cos, I'm thinking that the only way to do that successfully would be fit them with moped engines and replace the weapons with pea-shooters.

No subtle "nerf" is ever going to improve this. The sort of restrictions you'd need would have to be draconian.

Alternatively, you leave the ships alone but create a C&P system which means that IF those FdLs to something unlawful, there are going to be meaningful consequences.
That would mean they'll either be too busy to gank any more defenceless ships or they'll be deterred from doing it in the first place.
If that doesn't happen, dial up the consequences until it does.

 

[Ian Skippy]

By not preparing, I assume you mean not outfitting a full combat fit FDL or corvette with over engineered, god-rolled modules?

(playin Devil's advocate here, don't get worked up, I'll just make it worse)

Haha, no. It means this:

1) Make sure you know where you will sell your data, and plot a route to the station from <500 LY out. Do not start plotting while in the bubble, do not select the station when you are only there.
2) Make sure you select a system that is not near CGs, engineers etc. If you want to unlock someone, sell all excess data first at a safe location.
3) Keep an eye on the radar while in SC at all times. When you see a hollow icon, select it. If it is a ship that could theoretically be a griefer ship, immediately high-wake.
4) Always make sure you have chaff and heat sinks available. With low-weight mods these modules weight less than half a ton, there is no excuse not to have them.
5) If you failed #3 and were interdicted: submit, keep chaff going, use heatsinks to keep a low profile while charging your FSD. High-wake. Always.
6) NEVER EVERY POINT TOWARDS YOUR JUMP VECTOR WHILE CHARGING THE FSD!
7) NEVER EVERY POINT TOWARDS YOUR JUMP VECTOR WHILE CHARGING THE FSD!
8) NEVER EVERY POINT TOWARDS YOUR JUMP VECTOR WHILE CHARGING THE FSD!
9) While your FSD is charging, fly defensively while boosting: your goal is not to 'get away', but to prevent the opponent from shooting at you!
10) Turn towards the vector after the FSD is charged, and hit boost to counter drift and low speed.

What usually happens though is this:
1) Dont bring chaff, or shields, or anything.
2) Fantasize about all the names on planets, credits or what not. Completely ignore your surroundings.
3) Fumble about on the system map when selecting the station. Bonus points for ignoring that hollow icon belonging to a Cutter.
4) Only notice the cmdr when the interdiction starts.
5) Do what you always do: submit, high-wake while boosting in a straight line.
6) Die.
7) Complain online.

 

[IndigoWyrd]

Yep, it's in the first post and gets refined all through the thread, ending up with pretty much anyone with a brain admitting that the problem is really HRPs and Shield Boosters, not slots, and that we need better diminishing returns. There, I saved you a LOT of reading.

There's nothing wrong with open, but there are some balance issues with loadouts. Those two subjects are not related.

I actually disagree - but not for the reasons you might think. There is a problem with Open, but it's not who's there or what they're doing.
The problem is, and always has been, every time I've ventured into Open:

When No One is around, which is 90% of the time, everything is fine.
When Another Commander shows up, it's a coin-flip - either we go about our business just fine, or... I see that ship skip across space like a stone on a pond.
When More than One Other Commander Shows Up - aside from the skipping, then Matchmaking Server errors start cropping up regularly. People fail to show up in the same instance, docking at a station turns into something resembling fly-fishing on a pogo-stick, on a trampoline, and my favorite, the screen turns completely black, but voice comms and sound continues to work just fine, but nothing else does, including the menus.

It just becomes unplayable. So clearly something is wrong - as this rarely happens in Private Groups, and never in Solo.

 

[thirstyfish]

Haha, no. It means this:

1) Make sure you know where you will sell your data, and plot a route to the station from <500 LY out. Do not start plotting while in the bubble, do not select the station when you are only there.
2) Make sure you select a system that is not near CGs, engineers etc. If you want to unlock someone, sell all excess data first at a safe location.
3) Keep an eye on the radar while in SC at all times. When you see a hollow icon, select it. If it is a ship that could theoretically be a griefer ship, immediately high-wake.
4) Always make sure you have chaff and heat sinks available. With low-weight mods these modules weight less than half a ton, there is no excuse not to have them.
5) If you failed #3 and were interdicted: submit, keep chaff going, use heatsinks to keep a low profile while charging your FSD. High-wake. Always.
6) NEVER EVERY POINT TOWARDS YOUR JUMP VECTOR WHILE CHARGING THE FSD!
7) NEVER EVERY POINT TOWARDS YOUR JUMP VECTOR WHILE CHARGING THE FSD!
8) NEVER EVERY POINT TOWARDS YOUR JUMP VECTOR WHILE CHARGING THE FSD!
9) While your FSD is charging, fly defensively while boosting: your goal is not to 'get away', but to prevent the opponent from shooting at you!
10) Turn towards the vector after the FSD is charged, and hit boost to counter drift and low speed.

What usually happens though is this:
1) Dont bring chaff, or shields, or anything.
2) Fantasize about all the names on planets, credits or what not. Completely ignore your surroundings.
3) Fumble about on the system map when selecting the station. Bonus points for ignoring that hollow icon belonging to a Cutter.
4) Only notice the cmdr when the interdiction starts.
5) Do what you always do: submit, high-wake while boosting in a straight line.
6) Die.
7) Complain online.

You try that with my exploration fit asp x, 4d drives, 3d sheilds, 4x heat sink launchers. Boost to ~300 m/s. I got an easier way that will still allow me to click on open mode (fiddle with the router). Easier still is to just make the most practical choice and tell open to go [REDACTED] itself. Simplest solution is usually the best.

 

[Aashenfox]

I actually disagree - but not for the reasons you might think. There is a problem with Open, but it's not who's there or what they're doing.
The problem is, and always has been, every time I've ventured into Open:

When No One is around, which is 90% of the time, everything is fine.
When Another Commander shows up, it's a coin-flip - either we go about our business just fine, or... I see that ship skip across space like a stone on a pond.
When More than One Other Commander Shows Up - aside from the skipping, then Matchmaking Server errors start cropping up regularly. People fail to show up in the same instance, docking at a station turns into something resembling fly-fishing on a pogo-stick, on a trampoline, and my favorite, the screen turns completely black, but voice comms and sound continues to work just fine, but nothing else does, including the menus.

It just becomes unplayable. So clearly something is wrong - as this rarely happens in Private Groups, and never in Solo.

Spot on. My apologies for my misunderstanding of your original post's intent. By the way, the black screen thing isn't normal and probably a local issue. The rest, yeh, more or less, good days, bad days.

 

[bendover]

The only way to Bring true Balance to open No variation in ship Class, Everybody Gets a sindwinder on others ships in Game, Everybody Gets the same modules no variation,The whole idea of Balance is nonsense,On another note the idea that Real world pirate's are effective combatants does play out,Pirates are in effect thieve's of the Sea they Pick on the weak and Rob them,When Pirates come up against Motivated and We'll trained forces they get trounced

 

[IndigoWyrd]

The only way to Bring true Balance to open No variation in ship Class, Everybody Gets a sindwinder on others ships in Game, Everybody Gets the same modules no variation,The whole idea of Balance is nonsense,On another note the idea that Real world pirate's are effective combatants does play out,Pirates are in effect thieve's of the Sea they Pick on the weak and Rob them,When Pirates come up against Motivated and We'll trained forces they get trounced

Or Captain Phillips.

 

[Aashenfox]

The only way to Bring true Balance to open No variation in ship Class, Everybody Gets a sindwinder on others ships in Game, Everybody Gets the same modules no variation,The whole idea of Balance is nonsense,On another note the idea that Real world pirate's are effective combatants does play out,Pirates are in effect thieve's of the Sea they Pick on the weak and Rob them,When Pirates come up against Motivated and We'll trained forces they get trounced

I don't agree that balance is a winged unicorn. Rock paper scissors. Plenty of other games more or less manage it, and Elite is already mechanically well set up for it to work (Thermal, Explosive, Kinetic).

 

[Darkfyre99]

By not preparing, I assume you mean not outfitting a full combat fit FDL or corvette with over engineered, god-rolled modules?

(playin Devil's advocate here, don't get worked up, I'll just make it worse)

Having done the latest CGs in open in a type-7, I did the following to prepare:

Ship has the following modules:
4A power plant with "demigod roll" grade 1 Low Emissions modification (kept rolling until I got a secondary bonus to power output)
5A Thrusters with G3 Clean Drives (still haven't unlocked Qwent)
3A Power Distributed with grade 3 Engine focused mod
5A standard shields with grade 3 thermal resistance
2 1A shield boosters, one with grade 3 heavy duty, one grade 3 kinetic resistance
Chaff and Heat Sink launchers (no mods)

I also practice boosting into and out of my home station a few times, just to refamiliarize myself with this machine. Finally, I make my first run in my Cobra, just to get the lay of the land.

I don't expect myself to kill a player killer in a Type-7, whether the fight is fair or not. My goal is to make it to my destination with my cargo. If I do that, I win.

 

[Cmdr Tel]

I think I get it.

Honestly, I'm not trying to trip you up, here, or make you contradict yourself but it seems like you've moved the goalposts.

Are you now saying that this is an idea intended to reduce the power of combat ships, when involved in fights with each other?
I was under the impression that the idea was to make it a bit easier for non-combat ships to defend themselves against attacks.

If we're saying it's now intended to "level the playing field" between combat ships I'm still don't see any benefit.

To go back to our F1 analogy, it's like somebody suggesting the the Mercedes & Ferrari cars are much better than everybody else so we should ban DRS in order to give everybody else a chance.
Trouble is, with DRS banned all the other cars are that much worse as well so, in all likelihood, Mercedes and Ferrari will continue to dominate by virtue of all their other advantages.

And, meanwhile, I'll have to remind you of what I previously said about losing sight of your original goal.
If we're trying to "level the playing field" between combat ships, we're not doing anything to reduce the likelihood of non-combat ships getting destroyed at the hands of combat ships.
And, in the process, all you've done is "dumb down" the potential for building superior combat ships.

Fundamentally, if we're talking about ships that serve similar purposes, as long as every upgrade is available to every CMDR, I see no reason to artificially restrict them to any artificial "lowest common denominator".

Yes, level the playing field between combat ships. The benefit I see is a combat ship playing PVE most likely going to have disco an a fuel scoop and/or a cargo rack. If a Meta PVP FDL or such shows up really the only sensible thing to do is run.....yey!....another jump screen but because of the stacking there no real other choice, a three module difference that have been heavily engineered is just too much to overcome. If it were even or 1 or even two mods then it becomes more about skill which many PvP have in abundance but I think it would encourage them to fight making a it a better game.
The alternative is your PVP ship everywhere and visit every gas station in the galaxy.

Although I still think it should be unrestricted in anarchies.

 

[Stealthie]

Yes, level the playing field between combat ships. The benefit I see is a combat ship playing PVE most likely going to have disco an a fuel scoop and/or a cargo rack. If a Meta PVP FDL or such shows up really the only sensible thing to do is run.

Why would that be a bad thing?

To me, somebody who's involved in PvE combat (RES hunting, BHing or assassination missions etc) is involved in something as different to PvP and an explorer, miner or trader is.
If your ship isn't designed for PvP and you get dragged into it, why is running away a bad idea?

I DO accept the point that violence IS currently always the ultimate arbiter of success in ED and I don't think that should, necessarily, continue to always be the case and there should be something to moderate it but I don't think arbitrary module restrictions will achieve that.
Forcing somebody to fit a fuel scoop, a scanner and a cargo rack to their PvP ship isn't going to make a lot of difference and it's certainly not going to be enough to help a PvE ship win a fight against a PvP ship.
And, in doing so, you're also forcing a heap of people (like me) to compromise the ships that they've built for purposes other than PvP.
And then, when PvP ships are still able to smoke PvE ships, what then?
Continue further down the same road and force people to add even more non-combat junk to their ships in the hop we will eventually reach a "lowest common denominator" point, where all ships are able to compete with each other?

Basically, if you nerf combat ships, so they're forced to fit basic non-combat items such as an ADS, fuel scoop and a cargo rack, the difference is going to be negligible.
And then, if you nerf them further, in a bid to reach some kind of balance, the changes will have to be SO dramatic that they'll ruin almost every ship people currently use in the game.