How to stop Combat Logging and make the game more FUN for all in open play.

[Zambrick]

If the bounty is on that ship which cannot be cleared by jumping into a sidewinder and self destructing.

Then when they go back into that ship they wont be able to do missions to get credits as they will be blown out of the sky as soon as go into controlled space, be it fed imperial or independent. They will be ganked by full wings of elite NPC's.
They wont be able to dock in anything other than pirate bases, which will only offer maybe smuggling missions to stations controlled by factions, and hence get blown to bits by the station there if they have to rebuy a new ship every time they destroy someone else's ship, then that will get as tedious for them as it will for their Gankee's.




Because when his ship is destroyed by NPC's stations etc you will get back the insurance that you paid out, and it will come from his credits, his mate will get just the bounty on the commander.

If he wants to avoid being blown up by stations/NPC's he will have to conduct his ganking only in anarchy space, and if your going into anarchy space you know what risks you are running.

Anarchy should be dangerous and deadly, safe secs should be safe.

And maybe my thinking is a little wrong.

For sure they could just jump into another ship, and do missions.

SO maybe yeah attach it to the commander.

The important aspect is that when he kills an innocent unwanted pilot the rebuy cost gets logged to that commander, and not to a bounty that gets claimed when he gets killed by one of his mates.

When he does die eventually, he has to pay back from his credits all of the insurance payouts he has directly caused, could maybe bankrupt him force him back into a sidey if he has killed a lot of innocents, and the innocent some time down the road gets his money back, nice little suprise.

It should be either tied to the commander and the ship. If they get blown up in a sidey and did the crime in the FDL. They have a choice to buy back both the impounded FDL and the destroyed Sidey. The cost of getting the FDL back would be the same as if it were a rebuy.

Otherwise dont allow rebuys at all for players who have x number of murders in a given time.

 

[Han_Zen]

It's a "social hotspot" issue - CGs, Events, Engineers, Shinrarta ...
Which is so stupid, it hurts. The places designated as social hotspots are also the most unfriendly ones to visit. "come visit our october fest - only 10% of you will get robbed" is not something you put on an advertisement.

Time of day may also be a factor. I never been bothered in Shirarta or at an engineer except in the beta, where everyone wants to test their new build.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Without some fundamental changes to the game engine (and not necessarily ones i would support), the only things i have on offer (besides my now well known suggestion of locking CLers out of Open) are:

1) PvP/PvE flag.

2) Official open PvE mode.

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

Every solution creates new problems.

Oh, stop making sense.
My idea was so nice and all…

Regarding the rebuy costs. They're too low rather than too high.
…

Maybe FD should nerf Robigo/Sothis/Ceos/moneygrabmethodofthemonth. [uhh]

Basically .. don't play ED the game in open, just ED the lulzbunnyhuntercandycrushclone.

Careful now, if you mention arcade shooter people will get upset. :O

 

[GluttonyFang]

The assumption that this game has some "win conditions" in open PvP is asinine. It doesn't. There is no "game over, you won". The game doesn't care. The game respawns you immediately and provides you with an armed ship.

Let's put it quite simple. I'm immortal.The best PvP pilot in this game is completely unable to kill me.

But that's the whole point, during an encounter the maximum damage one can inflict upon another is to send them to their rebuy screen in in-game terms. In competition, there is much more than just win and lose. Adversarial play is where one maximizes one's utility and minimizes one's opponent's utility. I don't know why you think that a player "completely killing you" which is an absurd concept that even hardcore PvP games with partial loot drop doesn't entertain is the sole definition to winning or that there is "winning" in a hostile encounter in ED to begin with, it's utility maximizing and minimizing.

This 'gentleman's agreement' that ship destruction means defeat is some arbitrary rule that some have agreed upon. Guess what? I never signed that agreement. It's "anything goes" open which turns it into an endless war of attrition between "immortals" and the 'winner' is the one who turns the lights out.

Not everyone that engages in a hostile interaction with you is after ship destruction which is why I pointed out your argument is asinine in nature. And turning the lights out intentionally isn't "winning" it's simple cheating.

You yourself took up the cause of piracy and PvP so often - do you really feel it had an overall impact on any of the "sides"?

I do, since I'm still sitting in The Code's ambassador office and every now or then there's a thread commending The Code's approach to piracy on this forum. I put my foot down when SDC started to splinter from The Code, and I stand up to that decision even now. I stand for something and it has taken root, so yes, I have an impact on these "sides." I've written proposals after proposals to make the game better as unbiased as possible.

It's better than sitting around trolling the forum with no redeeming value like some people on these "sides" are doing.

 

[Boomer Kay]

But that's the whole point, during an encounter the maximum damage one can inflict upon another is to send them to their rebuy screen in in-game terms. In competition, there is much more than just win and lose. Adversarial play is where one maximizes one's utility and minimizes one's opponent's utility. I don't know why you think that a player "completely killing you" which is an absurd concept that even hardcore PvP games with partial loot drop doesn't entertain is the sole definition to winning or that there is "winning" in a hostile encounter in ED to begin with, it's utility maximizing and minimizing.

I see you're not a killer.

"Hardcore PvP games" .. like chess have very well defined "finishing moves" - it ends with a "checkmate". Game over. That's it. No, you can't have another move.
ED doesn't.
It doesn't even count your win/loss ratio or anything - which does make me wonder why some players are so stressed by open or unsolicited combat. -shrug-

Not everyone that engages in a hostile interaction with you is after ship destruction which is why I pointed out your argument is asinine in nature. And turning the lights out intentionally isn't "winning" it's simple cheating.

I wasn't talking about logging or DDOSing, I was talking about being one of the last active players. Long after the hordes have moved on and left - virtually no visible footprint on the steppe. History wasn't made by those who won battles, it was made by those who were still left to write books after all the brave warriors killed each other off

I do, since I'm still sitting in The Code's ambassador office and every now or then there's a thread commending The Code's approach to piracy on this forum. I put my foot down when SDC started to splinter from The Code, and I stand up to that decision even now. I stand for something and it has taken root, so yes, I have an impact on these "sides." I've written proposals after proposals to make the game better as unbiased as possible.

It's better than sitting around trolling the forum with no redeeming value like some people on these "sides" are doing.

At least you're having fun.
Was worried there for a moment that the task might burn you out.

 

[Zaggeron]

Every solution creates new problems.

Regarding the rebuy costs. They're too low rather than too high.
You should actually think twice which ship you take into a combat encounter (google General Pyrrhus .. a very 'succesful' strategist of old greece), instead, every PvPer is cheesing his billions of rebuys and takes expensive ships to battle without batting an eyelash. If he gets destroyed, he simply cheeses some more millions and is back in the game.
Quite capable and cheap ships like the Vipers, which would not be "insta death" for traders are only used by enthusiasts, the rest is (modded) FDLs, which then in turn is of course "too OP for PvP and everyone is flying it, so it has to be nerfed".

Ehhhh [wacky]

Until fixes are provided (which will be ETA: when hell freezes over), the workaround is simple - take only ships to open mode that you don't mind losing and only carry stuff you don't mind losing.
Basically .. don't play ED the game in open, just ED the lulzbunnyhuntercandycrushclone.

Rather they are too high for people who don't have millions to spare and too low for those who do. What I've suggested in this thread and others is some sort of time sink -- a salvage mission perhaps -- that has to be performed before you get your stuff back. This I think would address your complaint that billionaires unrealistically risk their expensive ships.

 

[Spiridon]

Without some fundamental changes to the game engine (and not necessarily ones i would support), the only things i have on offer (besides my now well known suggestion of locking CLers out of Open) are:

1) PvP/PvE flag.

2) Official open PvE mode.

My 2c

I like both suggestions.

I've been in heated debates with a lot of participants of this thread before, being against griefing and killing other players and making their gaming more miserable than it should be. I still stand with all I said before, but to all hardcore PvPers out there I have to say this:

You are absolutely right in one thing.

If a player chooses to play Open, he/she accepts to be killed - just for the kicks, if a random person decides that way. Sorry people, there are a lot of decent players out there, but there will be a psycho or two. You accepted to play in that environment. Face the music.

 

[Zambrick]

This whole thread is a non issue.


Until their is real consequence or gain from PVP then what ever is done is done.

The whole PVP aspect of this game is broken and has never been addressed.

They are constantly balancing weapons but there is not point to it other than addressing PVE issues.

Until Crime and punishment and or an actual system put into place where the entire burden of a PVP experience is not reliant on the Victims complacency, then I call the game broken and incomplete. Broken and incomplete systems have exploits and both PVP players and PVE Players are exploiting them.

PVP Griefers are relying on the fact that crime doesnt matter and they have no consequences. The PVE players in Open are using combat log to avoid an uninteresting and completley negative experience in the game.

I dont combat log but I also dont care if people do. Once the game has actual structure and is a little more complete, then I can hold others using approved methods of combat.

Calling any one side out as cheaters or carebears or what ever derogatory term you come up is just an attempt to bully one side into the others point of view.

PVP griefers are cheating because they dont have consequences and risks like everyone else. PVE combat loggers cheat because there is no meaningful way to avoid a situation where all risk 100% on their shoulders.

Exploits by their very nature are reliant on an unintended loophole in logic or law and in video game terms are what we call "cheaty" behavior. An example is the Huge bounty exploits from back in the day. That is where almost 90% of the games billionaires got rich in the matter of a month or 2. People call CEOS cheaty but man did they miss the golden days. The Hypocrisy is thick in this instance.

So no reason to continue this thread until they actually fix the underlying issue.

 

[Daffan]

It's not the rebuy cost it's the fact the beta will be wiped soon

I love this. But you also mean the full game right not just the current 2.2 beta?

Maybe they'l turn on the Sandbox MMO and Background Simulation with the full release.

 

[Nooneeyeno]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Yes, I agree for the most part. If one plays in open, than expect to have there ship destroyed. The only thing I would change ,if any, is , Make the penalty for murder in open (PVP) be very high. I understand piracy. Most pirates just want the cargo. That's one thing. Not all. I have been interdicted many times by wings of two or three. No demands. They just get a kick out of destroying my ship. Griefers.
remember the "Hutton Mug".
Here is my version on how high the penalty should be.
1. Docking request denied on all stations, outpost and settlements.
2. Mission board bounty to be placed on commander with very high payout. 7 /10 mil. 30 day time limit. Even after perpetrators ship gets destroyed
3. Rebuy should be twice the rebuy of destroyed ship plus cargo.
I think that should stop any griefers.
I understand piracy is part of the game , hatch breaking limpets and all that. I have no problem with that. If I get interdicted, here's 6 tons of biowaste. Have at it. But to ruin ones gameplay just for destroying your ship for kicks. The penalty should be severe.
that's my opinion, I could be wrong.[/FONT]

 

[Necronaught]

Yes, I agree for the most part. If one plays in open, than expect to have there ship destroyed. The only thing I would change ,if any, is , Make the penalty for murder in open (PVP) be very high. I understand piracy. Most pirates just want the cargo. That's one thing. Not all. I have been interdicted many times by wings of two or three. No demands. They just get a kick out of destroying my ship. Griefers.
remember the "Hutton Mug".
Here is my version on how high the penalty should be.
1. Docking request denied on all stations, outpost and settlements.
2. Mission board bounty to be placed on commander with very high payout. 7 /10 mil. 30 day time limit. Even after perpetrators ship gets destroyed
3. Rebuy should be twice the rebuy of destroyed ship plus cargo.
I think that should stop any griefers.
I understand piracy is part of the game , hatch breaking limpets and all that. I have no problem with that. If I get interdicted, here's 6 tons of biowaste. Have at it. But to ruin ones gameplay just for destroying your ship for kicks. The penalty should be severe.
that's my opinion, I could be wrong.

Some good Ideas there. How about a Piracy bonus for a clean heist. Much like a combat bond or bounty. The less damage you do to a ship the more bounty. Although genuine pirates seldom blow you up. Be nice to reward the ones actually doing it well.

I have heard Pvpers claim they always play in open and use the carebear reference. The Engineers came out and their status was solo or group. lol

 

[DukeIronHand]

They did run and hide from their fellow PvP'er didn't they?
Almost forgot their posts here of avoiding Open till they could get Engineered up - then moaning about the "grind" because they just had to have it done ASAP.
That was hilarious.

 

[Zambrick]

Some good Ideas there. How about a Piracy bonus for a clean heist. Much like a combat bond or bounty. The less damage you do to a ship the more bounty. Although genuine pirates seldom blow you up. Be nice to reward the ones actually doing it well.

I have heard Pvpers claim they always play in open and use the carebear reference. The Engineers came out and their status was solo or group. lol

I proposed a similar system about a month ago but everyone was in a mood and basically called me an idiot. Yes Piracy can pay if done correctly. Also the 100% pass or fail on cargo hauling missions have to go away. That way if you do get robbed it wont be a big deal to give up some of your stuff.

I thought that maybe if you delivered 90% of your cargo you got the listed payout for the mission and the percentage would go down from there. If you deliver 100% of the cargo you get a bonus only if you avoided at least one Pirate interaction between point A and B. If not you just get the 100% payout.

Pirates only get fined until they reach a certain dollar amount made illicitly. Make all stolen cargo regardless if its a normal commodity or not be sold in black markets and that is how they can track how much stolen stuff is being accumulated.

 

[killerofstars]

If I get attacked by a wing of players, I'm combat logging. Maybe, MAYBE if I'm interdicted by one player, and he isn't using some kind of weird heat meta cheat or something, I might see the fight through to the end. I have no bounties, so it's no real benefit to him.

But I have no interest in getting ganked. If you bring friends to gang up on me? Peace. I'm out.

 

[jacozilla]

If I get attacked by a wing of players, I'm combat logging. Maybe, MAYBE if I'm interdicted by one player, and he isn't using some kind of weird heat meta cheat or something, I might see the fight through to the end. I have no bounties, so it's no real benefit to him.

But I have no interest in getting ganked. If you bring friends to gang up on me? Peace. I'm out.

Much as I'm not a pvp'er, and said what I've needed to say in this thread re: logging out in approved FD manner is just fine - as a self described moderate I feel the need to point out the extremes of either camp, and your statements here fall into that bizarreness category.

1- you seem the type to call anything a "cheat" that in fact beat you fair and square.

Unless you are saying players using heat meta are also somehow using an unknown exploit rather than the FD-provided mechanics as-is, you are coming off as a whiner who labels as "cheat" the accurate use of what FD implemented. Now whether the heat meta should be changed, or balanced better - sure , totally with that conversation. But it's not a "cheat".

2- You also seem to suffer under the delusion that fights need to be 'fair'. If that were the case, the U.S. armed forces would have lost a lot more battles and wars than we have. Similarly the U.K. armed forces, with a much longer history than the USA of bringing more firepower to crush opponents.

Do I like being ganged up by a wing? No, course not. But it doesn't mean it is not a fair tactic. Long as I have the option to run like a rabbit, high wake escape or log out legally using menu timer exit, I am fine with anyone or group trying to kill me because until and unless FD changes the game balance radically other way --> victims today have much greater chance at successfully avoiding death than even wings who interdict single players.

Some will get trapped and die, some will escape. My contention is using boost-high wake escape technique, or boost-menu logout will save you many more times than you die, so to me that counts as my personal opinion of 'viable option for declining pvp'. If there are no viable options, I'll join your complaint re: ganged up by wings. Until the you're basically complaining that someone was being smart - e.g. bring the most force you possibly can to make the fight go as well as possible for your side.

 

[Daffan]

Sorry but what has Sothis got to do with anything i said?

I suggested a way to circumvent the jumping into a sidewinder and clearing your bad deeds, if you do something bad it should stay with you, and be locked to the ship that did the bad deed.

You may be right about "How much do you really think will a bounty achieve?" probably nothing, unless when that ship is destroyed the owner of the ship then has to reimburse all or a percentage of the insurance claims back to the commanders he has killed.

Any Cargo that was stolen in a successful, non deadly pirate attempt Is theirs to keep. no need to pay any of that back.

Pirating is a legitimate role to play, Its mindless killing that needs to be dealt with.

Your reply is a clear indication you did not even begin to unpack what the guy your replying to meant. Even the notion of paying for people's death is hilarious because it means there is no point to PvP as you loss more then you put in, in the end.

If someone has a 2 million bounty, yet can farm 50 million an hour - why would he be afraid?

If his rebuy was 4 million, yet he can farm 50 million an hour - why would he be afraid of dying?

EVE Online people don't fly expensive pwnage ships all the time or do stupid things because there is a risk/reward element to the game. In Elite you can gank new players all day, do whatever you like - Overpowered highwake and drop to solo to escape every time . There is no repercussion system and even if there was, the current game design and eco system cannot support a Sandbox MMO game.

That's why removing the re-buy cost from PvP encounters is a nice idea. It removes one motivator: "salt".

No thanks, that just removes the one big draw that a Sandbox game has - Meaningful impact to your actions.

Rather just play Arena or War Thunder simulator battles if there was no rebuy. There already is basically no meaningful sandbox gameplay due to solo and themepark npc grind gameplay (RIP Powerplay, Minor Factions and everything else), but you start chipping away at the little sandbox style things that DO exist and it becomes even more pointless.

A good question is why even have money in this game, you can earn infinite amounts in a week and if you take away the last money sinks then it goes from being worthless to completely worthless. Because right now, money means almost nothing already.

In the end, the whole sandbox genre is misunderstood by most players and developers. A failure to understand even basic economics. Imagine Elite added a crafting system to the game (not engineers), yet since there is no such thing as item loss or item degradation from pvp/pve, there is no supply/demand train and it becomes a worthless money sink/npc sell grind. But the playerbase would jump in and defend risk free pvp and pve to their last breath even though ironically, it was the sole reason crafting sucked. (e.g. in WoW gathering and profession is worthless because nobody loses items and needs to buy/make more, the classic themepark game example)

 

[iFred]

It´s easy to fix: Make it 100 % sure that a senseless murder will lead to the insurance screen. With all consequences.

Define "senseless" pretty well and back it up by ingame rules - everyting will be fine.

 

[Dizzy B High]

Your reply is a clear indication you did not even begin to unpack what the guy your replying to meant. Even the notion of paying for people's death is hilarious because it means there is no point to PvP as you loss more then you put in, in the end.

A clear indication? not really only 3 posts after i acknowledged another post, about jumping into another ship to farm credits, and said so maybe thew docking penalties ect. need to go on the commander not the ship.

And its not so hilarious i'm not talking about murder of wanted commanders, i'm talking about when a CMDR not wanted in a high sec system with no cargo is interdicted by 3 in a wing with ships engineered to the max who's sole purpose is to destroy them simply because they can. That ceases to be PvP its PvV (player vs victim) and thats what needs to be dealt with.

Murder of innocent CMDR's should be a crime and penalties should match that crime, for example ban from docking in stations controlled by the Major faction where the crime took place, thus limiting them to Anarchy sectors where anything goes.

PVPr's are under the impression that Open mode is provided solely so they can do whatever they want and heaven forbid should you go open mode then you deserve to die for even contemplating being there.

Open is in fact a game mode for everybody, so they can interact with total strangers, not everyone wants to kill kill kill maybe they fly in open so they can wing up with other traders, to make more profits, that's not possible in Solo mode.

The only lawless sectors should be the un-policed anarchy sectors where anything goes, and its where gankers should stay that should be the true PVP kill or be killed areas, If you kill and unwanted comander in Fed, IMP INDY space you should receive penalties.
The more you dio it the more those penaltis stack up, you want to play that way then suffer the consequnces of playing that way.
If there was a proper crime and punishment system in place, then i think it would stop a lot more people combat logging, or at least help.

If i am in an unwanted ship with no cargo no crimes against me and i get interdicted by a wing of 3 in a high security system by big ships engineered to the max for the sole purpose of destroying me, I will take the law into my own hands and combat log. I am not your pew pew entertainment, however if you interdict me and message me your a pirate etc, and i have cargo i will drop cargo for you, and if you then fire at me i will combat log.

If FDEV put in a fair criome and punishment system i will play by those rules but until that happens enjoy watching my ship disappear, i hope i have caused you as much disappointment as you would have done to me.

 

[Boomer Kay]

In the end, the whole sandbox genre is misunderstood by most players and developers. A failure to understand even basic economics. Imagine Elite added a crafting system to the game (not engineers), yet since there is no such thing as item loss or item degradation from pvp/pve, there is no supply/demand train and it becomes a worthless money sink/npc sell grind. But the playerbase would jump in and defend risk free pvp and pve to their last breath even though ironically, it was the sole reason crafting sucked. (e.g. in WoW gathering and profession is worthless because nobody loses items and needs to buy/make more, the classic themepark game example)

That's the scarecety model of economy. By far the most boring one. A "pavlovian job simulator".
The post scarecety model of ED is a lot more interesting. Shows the true weakness in humans. There's 400 billion star systems and ships that can cross them in less than a day and you still have to plant your little flag on some rock to claim it "yours".