How to stop Combat Logging and make the game more FUN for all in open play.

[Adam Gorst]

How to stop Combat Logging and make the game more FUN for all in open play.

If you want to stop a person from doing something it helps to understand their reason for doing it. In a game, if a person cheats they usually have a reason, but cheating to win and cheating not to lose are actually two very different things. Cheating to win is usually a problem with the person, whereas cheating not to lose is usually a problem with the way a game is designed.

Cheating not to lose is often a sign that a game is unbalanced because fear of loss is a higher motivator than desire for gain and if a person so fears losing something they will cheat to get out of it you will find it very difficult to implement the rule set that causes that behaviour because it goes against human nature.


I believe combat logging in elite dangerous falls into this category. In many instances players would like to engage in combat (Desire for gain- the fun of combat). It is a large part of the game they have chosen to play, but their willingness to do so falls down at the point of them losing their ship (Fear of loss – the rebuy cost, loss of time getting the money back etc).


This is very telling as it shows that they will be willing to fight but are unwilling to cross that final hurdle because their fear of loss won’t allow them to do so. And in this game the thing that people fear losing is the credits for the rebuy and the time it will take rebuilding their finances after a large insurance pay-out, especially on some of the bigger ships. For traders it is a double whammy as they have very little chance in a fight against a combat vessel and they will lose their ship and their cargo if it doesn’t go their way.


In short if the rebuy cost is too high an unacceptable number of people will combat log, if the rebuy cost is too low there is little motivation to play the game, but if the rebuy cost is set correctly people will play the game as it was designed to be played without cheating. I believe that at this time the rebuy cost is set too high and that is why there is allot of combat logging going on.


I have some evidence of this,


I have been playing the Beta for 2.2 recently and as the rebuy cost has been so low I have had many more interactions with commanders who have stayed in the fight till the end where in the past they would have combat logged. In fact, apart from technical issues (it is Beta after all) I have found the Beta to be far more fun interactions with other players in open play due to the lower rebuy cost. I even got interdicted and attacked by a Beluga while flying in a Federal Corvette, it was just so much fun and had many more interactions with other players because the pressure of that 10 million Insurance payout and the grind to get the money back wasn’t an issue for either of us.

I would ask Frontier to consider reducing the rebuy cost as a trial until a happy medium can be found, it would be easy to test and if I’m wrong easy to change back but it’s worth a go to see if it reduces combat logging and therefore improves everybody’s enjoyment of the game.

All the best,

Adam

 

[Anthony Jones]

It's not the rebuy cost it's the fact the beta will be wiped soon

 

[Alex Brentnall]

Oh, this again... Good luck OP...

In be4 lock.

The game is hard, you should expect to die. If you go in Open and combat log its your own fault for going in open. The Solo/PG option is right there on the title menu, it's not exactly hidden away. Open = interaction in all its glory.

You are correct about your guesses but in a similar fashion the game would feel so much less thrilling and alive if everything were cheap and risk free all the time. Yes there's a balance and I think it's nicely hit currently, back in the old days 1mil credits was about 3 hours effort, nowerdays thats like 25 minutes in a RES.

I don't think the game should change for people's inability to read and understand what open mode is. They should be sent to PG/Solo or educated on what Open means. For me personally I've played in all modes and frequently switch between depending on my activity, mood and internet connection. When I click the open button I effectively sign a waiver on my ship saying I expect to loose this. Don't see why others can't do the same.

Edit:
(N.B. I've done PvP, I've been in Mobius for a decent time, I've been a fuel rat, I've explored, done CG's in open etc. 30 insurance claims totalling around 46 mil so I feel I have a fairly broad experience here. Either way it's still my opinion but I feel it's validated). <- Expecting this thread to go sideways so added this.

 

[Lucifer Hate]

How to stop Combat Logging and make the game more FUN for all in open play.

If you want to stop a person from doing something it helps to understand their reason for doing it. In a game, if a person cheats they usually have a reason, but cheating to win and cheating not to lose are actually two very different things. Cheating to win is usually a problem with the person, whereas cheating not to lose is usually a problem with the way a game is designed.

Cheating not to lose is often a sign that a game is unbalanced because fear of loss is a higher motivator than desire for gain and if a person so fears losing something they will cheat to get out of it you will find it very difficult to implement the rule set that causes that behaviour because it goes against human nature.


I believe combat logging in elite dangerous falls into this category. In many instances players would like to engage in combat (Desire for gain- the fun of combat). It is a large part of the game they have chosen to play, but their willingness to do so falls down at the point of them losing their ship (Fear of loss – the rebuy cost, loss of time getting the money back etc).


This is very telling as it shows that they will be willing to fight but are unwilling to cross that final hurdle because their fear of loss won’t allow them to do so. And in this game the thing that people fear losing is the credits for the rebuy and the time it will take rebuilding their finances after a large insurance pay-out, especially on some of the bigger ships. For traders it is a double whammy as they have very little chance in a fight against a combat vessel and they will lose their ship and their cargo if it doesn’t go their way.


In short if the rebuy cost is too high an unacceptable number of people will combat log, if the rebuy cost is too low there is little motivation to play the game, but if the rebuy cost is set correctly people will play the game as it was designed to be played without cheating. I believe that at this time the rebuy cost is set too high and that is why there is allot of combat logging going on.


I have some evidence of this,


I have been playing the Beta for 2.2 recently and as the rebuy cost has been so low I have had many more interactions with commanders who have stayed in the fight till the end where in the past they would have combat logged. In fact, apart from technical issues (it is Beta after all) I have found the Beta to be far more fun interactions with other players in open play due to the lower rebuy cost. I even got interdicted and attacked by a Beluga while flying in a Federal Corvette, it was just so much fun and had many more interactions with other players because the pressure of that 10 million Insurance payout and the grind to get the money back wasn’t an issue for either of us.

I would ask Frontier to consider reducing the rebuy cost as a trial until a happy medium can be found, it would be easy to test and if I’m wrong easy to change back but it’s worth a go to see if it reduces combat logging and therefore improves everybody’s enjoyment of the game.

All the best,

Adam

It's not the rebuy cost it's the fact the beta will be wiped soon

Anthony he it exactly. Nothing that happens in beta has any affect on the game.

 

[GluttonyFang]

Well at least this is better than that other thread .-.

But the insurance is already very low, if we lower it even further it makes death even more meaningless than the value it currently has.

Not to mention it will encourage station walling Sidewinder activities even more except people now won't care if they're using a cheap Sidewinder or an expensive Cutter.

 

[Deleted member 110222]

I do think FD should trial OP's idea.

Of course a hundred people are already typing that it shouldn't happen.

To them I ask, what do you lose, from the other not losing?

 

[c48113]

The solution is for people who dislike combat log to form a private group. Then they can kick out anyone who combat logs. Problem solved.

 

[GluttonyFang]

I don't think the game should change for people's inability to read and understand what open mode is. They should be sent to PG/Solo or educated on what Open means. For me personally I've played in all modes and frequently switch between depending on my activity, mood and internet connection. When I click the open button I effectively sign a waiver on my ship saying I expect to loose this. Don't see why others can't do the same.

We also have people who believe the lack of a pure PvE mode is a valid excuse to log on people.

*Chuckles in the background*

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

The solution is for people who dislike combat log to form a private group. Then they can kick out anyone who combat logs. Problem solved.

So Open mode = exploiter mode .-.?

What...?

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

I do think FD should trial OP's idea.

Of course a hundred people are already typing that it shouldn't happen.

To them I ask, what do you lose, from the other not losing?

For a pirate, time and cargo are lost .-.

Edit:

Then add in some pre-log trash talk, throw out some patience and courtesy, too.

Why do you think SDC formed out of The Code .-.?

 

[jasonbarron]

Nice try OP, but the only thing that needs to be done about Combat Logging (in my opinion the very lowest of the low playstyles) is that fdev either needs to technically figure out a way to make it impossible to do in the first place, or impose a massive punitive punishment on the player after the fact.

 

[Alex Brentnall]

I do think FD should trial OP's idea.

Of course a hundred people are already typing that it shouldn't happen.

To them I ask, what do you lose, from the other not losing?

Sense of value would be the biggest one for me.

Now think of games like Xcom and Dark Souls and other masterpieces where failure actually meant something, you'd find yourself fighting all the harder, that close encounter where you escaped at 10% hull felt all the more thrilling, your heartbeat goes to double its normal rate (if your unhealthy like me).
In short I like to feel an element of risk, not quite Dark Souls but I like it where it is. We have a choice to fly open and we have a choice to fly a ship we can afford to loose (or not).

 

[Cosmos]

How to stop Combat Logging and make the game more FUN for all in open play.

If you want to stop a person from doing something it helps to understand their reason for doing it. In a game, if a person cheats they usually have a reason, but cheating to win and cheating not to lose are actually two very different things. Cheating to win is usually a problem with the person, whereas cheating not to lose is usually a problem with the way a game is designed.

Cheating not to lose is often a sign that a game is unbalanced because fear of loss is a higher motivator than desire for gain and if a person so fears losing something they will cheat to get out of it you will find it very difficult to implement the rule set that causes that behaviour because it goes against human nature.


I believe combat logging in elite dangerous falls into this category. In many instances players would like to engage in combat (Desire for gain- the fun of combat). It is a large part of the game they have chosen to play, but their willingness to do so falls down at the point of them losing their ship (Fear of loss – the rebuy cost, loss of time getting the money back etc).


This is very telling as it shows that they will be willing to fight but are unwilling to cross that final hurdle because their fear of loss won’t allow them to do so. And in this game the thing that people fear losing is the credits for the rebuy and the time it will take rebuilding their finances after a large insurance pay-out, especially on some of the bigger ships. For traders it is a double whammy as they have very little chance in a fight against a combat vessel and they will lose their ship and their cargo if it doesn’t go their way.


In short if the rebuy cost is too high an unacceptable number of people will combat log, if the rebuy cost is too low there is little motivation to play the game, but if the rebuy cost is set correctly people will play the game as it was designed to be played without cheating. I believe that at this time the rebuy cost is set too high and that is why there is allot of combat logging going on.


I have some evidence of this,


I have been playing the Beta for 2.2 recently and as the rebuy cost has been so low I have had many more interactions with commanders who have stayed in the fight till the end where in the past they would have combat logged. In fact, apart from technical issues (it is Beta after all) I have found the Beta to be far more fun interactions with other players in open play due to the lower rebuy cost. I even got interdicted and attacked by a Beluga while flying in a Federal Corvette, it was just so much fun and had many more interactions with other players because the pressure of that 10 million Insurance payout and the grind to get the money back wasn’t an issue for either of us.

I would ask Frontier to consider reducing the rebuy cost as a trial until a happy medium can be found, it would be easy to test and if I’m wrong easy to change back but it’s worth a go to see if it reduces combat logging and therefore improves everybody’s enjoyment of the game.

All the best,

Adam

Sounds like a lot of wet blanket apologising and excuses for what ultimately comes down to a major flaw in the games networking solution and Frontiers lack of will to do much about it. 15 second log out timer indeed, curious its set so low its hard to determine who pulled the plug and who logged out 'gracefully'.

Bottom line here is that human nature being what it is you'll always have people with low integrity and character who will cheat. The real problem isn't actually them, but with Frontier. Who have a history of turning a blind eye to it.

So right now there is a perception from the playerbase that they can exploit and cheat and there will be no consequences.. The result? A rat ship.

 

[Valije]

Nowadays the best way to enjoy playing in open is... not playing in open.

 

[Adam Gorst]

I think that all these points are valid, I'm not suggesting we make the game any harder or any easier, I’m only suggesting that we ask the player base where it thinks the level should be set and adjust it accordingly. If the majority say its fine as it is that is where it should be. Maybe we should start a poll and see once and for all what everybody thinks on the subject.

Thanks,

Adam

 

[Deleted member 110222]

We also have people who believe the lack of a pure PvE mode is a valid excuse to log on people.

*Chuckles in the background*

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -



So Open mode = exploiter mode .-.?

What...?

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -



For a pirate, time and cargo are lost .-.

Edit:

Then add in some pre-log trash talk, throw out some patience and courtesy, too.

Why do you think SDC formed out of The Code .-.?

How? If you get cargo, you get paid. If you don't, target goes boom. What they pay in rebuy has no impact on your earnings.

You don't get paid your target's rebuy.

 

[BigBANGtheory [VR]]

Nice try OP, but the only thing that needs to be done about Combat Logging (in my opinion the very lowest of the low playstyles) is that fdev either needs to technically figure out a way to make it impossible to do in the first place, or impose a massive punitive punishment on the player after the fact.

I agree but combat logging needs to be dealt in conjunction with crime & punishment as a joint effort one without the other unbalances the game.

 

[GluttonyFang]

How? If you get cargo, you get paid. If you don't, target goes boom. What they pay in rebuy has no impact on your earnings.

You don't get paid your target's rebuy.

You realize you pointed out the flaw in the argument that you tried to present by presenting what I just quoted, right?

 

[LoneKharnivore]

Around and around and around we go, where we land nobody knows!

 

[Alex Brentnall]

How? If you get cargo, you get paid. If you don't, target goes boom. What they pay in rebuy has no impact on your earnings.

You don't get paid your target's rebuy.

What he's trying to say is the target has less reason to give in to any demands if insurance is cheaper. May as well run or try and self destruct.

 

[Zambrick]

Yes this is one of those games where you can spend 2 years amassing a fortune and you can lose it all. Effectively having to start over after spending thousands of hours in game. That would be the worse case scenario of course but that is the fear.

The other side of this equation is we know that the Pirates or people engaging in PVP do not have any consequences to deal with. They get to blow up your ship as many times as they want and at best they get one slap on the wrist by comparison. Meanwhile you have paid many millions of credits in rebuy if you can afford it.

The person being destroyed usually is in a non combat ship and they are either exploring or transporting materials. If you are exploring then there is no reason for wanton destruction. As for traders unless a Pirate T-9 pulls another T-9 out SC for combat, the traders know that the Pirates are getting next to nothing in profit or gain. The most used Pirate ships dont have the cargo space in order to make any kind of money. Its like being robbed for your lunch money by the school bully. Nobody likes that.

Pirates dont pull FDLs or corvettes out of SC unless they are purposefully looking for a challenge. I can tell you I have never been pulled out of SC by a pirate in my FDL/Combat Python, or Vulture. Not once and I have had this game since around launch.

As for the better player interaction in Beta, that is because nobody has anything to lose. Once Beta is over that beta account is wiped and a new snap shot is pulled for the next Beta.

I really wish it would be much better and fun, but people ruin the experience because they get off on it. First it was traders having too much armor then the ships got balanced and the traders have no armor. So they tried to balance that by offering High Wake as an option. Now that is being called an exploit and a cheat.

After 2.2 launches all Pirates will become part of the PP guy so they can get missiles that interrupt FSDs. That will get balanced in some way and then the whole whining process will begin again.

Until their is true crime and punishment in a game then this will always occur. This is not GTA IV Online in space. Its also not COD or Battlefield with Space Ships like some people wish. True crime and punishment will be the only answer to fix this interaction issue that we currently have.

 

[Cosmos]

I agree but combat logging needs to be dealt in conjunction with crime & punishment as a joint effort one without the other unbalances the game.

Have you never heard of solo or pg? Does this solution remove them from the game too?