I love E:D But really?

[Starshot_Jigawatts]

from a verisimilitude POV i dont think that is such an issue.

the cobra mk3 is........ i am not even gonna guess as i cant remember but it is over 100 years old. sure it is has some face lifts over the years but even so in real life if you were to compare a performance car from the 1980s to one produced today, in the majority of metrics the old car would be objectively worse in most areas.

one area i have some experience in.... take a nissan 370z and compare it to a 1980s W10 toyota mr2

(I deliberately cheated and didnt compare a W20 MR2 to a W30 one as i would say arguably the W20 is the better car )

Well said. That's what kills me about posts like that. I mean on one hand this is a space "simulator". Then it's like people have this unrealistic attitude where the ship lineup should be static. And new ships NOT better than the old ones. How in the world is that realistic? This is what mankind does: improves technology. We move forwards. Why would anyone bother making a Cobra V that didn't exceed the Cobra III !?!!??

 

[Cmdr Snuffler]

Small ships aren't for new players? What ship did you start in?

It's bad etiquette to argue using half of someone's statement. The other part was "for giggles" as in, more of a focus on fun. You're not using one for building a new station in any significant way anyway.

As for what ship this beats, given the internal, weapons (including convergence) and the agility and speed of the ship, if I bought a Cobra mkV I would see no need for an Asp Scout (obvs), Asp Explorer, Keelback, T-6, FDS, FAS and Krait Phantom (aside from as an exploration ship) in my fleet. It would do everything I would want of those others.

I started in a Corvette.

You stated small ships were only for new players or for giggles...even if you include "giggles" your statement is still incorrect. Yea, some Cmdrs use a sidewinder and take it into a high CZ for giggles, not denying that. However, some small ships excel at certain tasks more than medium or large ships, Cmdrs don't use them for giggles, they use them because they are the best arrow in the quiver to get a job done. This is like having a conversation with my 7 year old daughter. I'm tapping out.

As for your ships that you now say are obsolete because of the Cmk5...Asp Scout has always been the runt of the litter, there's been better ships since day 1 than the scout. The same can be said for the T-6. AspX and DBX, can see where you're coming from with this. They both have better jump range than the Cmk5 but also they were trumped by other medium ships that made them "obsolete" to a certain point. Same goes for the FDS and FAS, but they still have more firepower than the Cmk5. Phantom, yea, much better for exploration and did make a good missions runner, but again this was trumped by other medium ships.
The one massive plus for a Cmk5 is it's SCO handling, fuel consumption and and SCO top speed, which whoops everything else. SCO travel though isn't the be all and end all of why you wouldn't use another ship.
Back in the day the cost of ships had a big impact on ship progression. It took flippin ages to earn credits, so things like the T-6 had their place as a stepping stone trading ship. This is no longer the case as you can earn enough credits for almost any ship in hours/days rather than weeks/months.
Not sure the Cmk5 would replace my AspX or Phantom, the Corsair and Mandalay replaced those.

There's such a range of ships in ED that people fly what they feel comfortable flying for any given task, but that doesn't take away from the fact that some are just better on paper at some tasks than others.
Same applies to cars in RL, which is why we all don't drive the exact same car.
o7

 

[Starshot_Jigawatts]

just for the record not all of us - even veterans - are that wealthy. That said in many ways the economy in elite was better early doors. back then it was possible to actual struggle for money - unless you chose to cheese the game. That was the golden era for the game imo where piracy actually made some semblence of sense in the game beyond roleplay and sometimes it was a necessity to fly with less than the best gear for your build as you could not afford it

now however one cant help but earn silly profits, and add to that if one wants a fleet carrier it is kind of mandatory now (though as i said.... even so not all of us are that wealthy). its a bit of a segue but its a damn shame really imo

I'm personally thankful that I can spent my time in Elite enjoying it and doing what I want to do. And that I'm NOT being forced to grind for imaginary Space Bucks so I can actually unlock the things I want to do.

Also we all say the "early" days of a game were better. Even when everything tells us it objectively was not. Gamer nostalgia is a real thing.

 

[Dillon Fallon]

I started in a Corvette.

You stated small ships were only for new players or for giggles...even if you include "giggles" your statement is still incorrect. Yea, some Cmdrs use a sidewinder and take it into a high CZ for giggles, not denying that. However, some small ships excel at certain tasks more than medium or large ships, Cmdrs don't use them for giggles, they use them because they are the best arrow in the quiver to get a job done. This is like having a conversation with my 7 year old daughter. I'm tapping out.

As for your ships that you now say are obsolete because of the Cmk5...Asp Scout has always been the runt of the litter, there's been better ships since day 1 than the scout. The same can be said for the T-6. AspX and DBX, can see where you're coming from with this. They both have better jump range than the Cmk5 but also they were trumped by other medium ships that made them "obsolete" to a certain point. Same goes for the FDS and FAS, but they still have more firepower than the Cmk5. Phantom, yea, much better for exploration and did make a good missions runner, but again this was trumped by other medium ships.
The one massive plus for a Cmk5 is it's SCO handling, fuel consumption and and SCO top speed, which whoops everything else. SCO travel though isn't the be all and end all of why you wouldn't use another ship.
Back in the day the cost of ships had a big impact on ship progression. It took flippin ages to earn credits, so things like the T-6 had their place as a stepping stone trading ship. This is no longer the case as you can earn enough credits for almost any ship in hours/days rather than weeks/months.
Not sure the Cmk5 would replace my AspX or Phantom, the Corsair and Mandalay replaced those.

There's such a range of ships in ED that people fly what they feel comfortable flying for any given task, but that doesn't take away from the fact that some are just better on paper at some tasks than others.
Same applies to cars in RL, which is why we all don't drive the exact same car.
o7

You started the game in a Corvette?

Get off. I'm not even reading the rest of that after that one.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

I'm personally thankful that I can spent my time in Elite enjoying it and doing what I want to do. And that I'm NOT being forced to grind for imaginary Space Bucks so I can actually unlock the things I want to do.

Also we all say the "early" days of a game were better. Even when everything tells us it objectively was not. Gamer nostalgia is a real thing.

i am not saying you are wrong for the game you want....... however its not so cut and dry. sure there is more content now, and the old content is still there for the most part (yes there are exceptions but not going there for now)

but Elite at its core for me was always a game where you were a broke pilot trying to make your way, with dreams of one day owning something better (in the 1st game it was simply a decked out cobra but in all the other games there were far bigger ships to dream off)

and at launch the game was far better balanced then. So many parts of the game now make little sense because any semblence of the economy has been torpedoed. objectively the game was better rounded at launch imo.

also we only had 1 currency. having multiple currencies just screams free to play game to me and its not something i generally engage in to be honest. i do for elite, because its elite. i would much rather be forced to "grind" as you call it for in game money that i can spend on buying anything rather than instead having the situation we have now where i cant buy basic commodities like phosphorus or parts of destroyed ships for cash.

but yes most of the old content is still in there, but it does kind of make it feel a little pointless doing a lot of it now imo its so out of wack.

back on the topic of ships, personally i was not that bothered when it was intimated it would be a known entity of 3 months wait for the new ships, however the thin end of the wedge / slippery slope has been proven yet again... 1st it was with ARX, (which we were promised would only ever be for cosmetics) and now it is for early access which appears to be stretching out longer and longer for each ship

and before i am accused of being tight... (just in case ) maybe I am however that is not the case for me and Elite. Frontier have had more of my money for Elite than i have have given for any other game in my 40 years of gaming......... and that includes some pretty expensive games like MSFS 2020 with a bunch of content.

 

[Starshot_Jigawatts]

back on the topic of ships, personally i was not that bothered when it was intimated it would be a known entity of 3 months wait for the new ships, however the thin end of the wedge / slippery slope has been proven yet again... 1st it was with ARX, (which we were promised would only ever be for cosmetics) and now it is for early access which appears to be stretching out longer and longer for each ship

I guess what bothers me about complaints like this is there is never any kind of acknowledgment that these aren't simply choices being made out of thin air, but that there is a real monetary consideration by FDEV (and others) that can't be swept aside if we want the servers being kept running. Or at least no alternative suggestions made on how FDEV should monetize the game going forward. I mean yeah I would love for everything to be free and not cost money too, it just doesn't feel realistic.

I would much rather them break their "promise" (did they literally PROMISE?) on ARX then introduce ANOTHER currency just for ships. Just...god no. I hate it when games go crazy with multiple currency types.

i would much rather be forced to "grind" as you call it for in game money that i can spend on buying anything rather than instead having the situation we have now where i cant buy basic commodities like phosphorus or parts of destroyed ships for cash.

They're in a no-win scenario with that one. It's a double-edged sword. Because then the old-guard (they know who they are) would scream en-mass that people are short-cutting Engineering by making the obtaining of materials utterly trivial. Yeah I would love to buy them for credits too lol. I can understand why they didn't go that route though.

 

[zimms]

Maybe the people who love personal attacks and semantics about what "P2W" actually means could start their own thread. This one was supposed to be about paid-for ships and early access phase.

 

[amigacooke]

If you’re confused by the concept, have a think about how many of your childhood chocolate bars are no longer on the shelves.

I hope not, they'd be stale by now.

 

[Cmdr Snuffler]

You started the game in a Corvette?

Get off. I'm not even reading the rest of that after that one.

I started in a Sidewinder back in the alpha, reset Cmdr when beta dropped and started in an Eagle.
While the answer to the question was obvious, and I chose to post a tongue in cheek reply, it's not that silly of an answer in the days of pre-built ships. Create new Cmdr, buy Arx, buy pre-made ship before you've done a single thing in ED. So technically you can start in a T-9 these days.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

I guess what bothers me about complaints like this is there is never any kind of acknowledgment that these aren't simply choices being made out of thin air, but that there is a real monetary consideration by FDEV (and others) that can't be swept aside if we want the servers being kept running. Or at least no alternative suggestions made on how FDEV should monetize the game going forward. I mean yeah I would love for everything to be free and not cost money too, it just doesn't feel realistic.

I would much rather them break their "promise" (did they literally PROMISE?) on ARX then introduce ANOTHER currency just for ships. Just...god no. I hate it when games go crazy with multiple currency types.


They're in a no-win scenario with that one. It's a double-edged sword. Because then the old-guard (they know who they are) would scream en-mass that people are short-cutting Engineering by making the obtaining of materials utterly trivial. Yeah I would love to buy them for credits too lol. I can understand why they didn't go that route though.

well promise... they didnt spell it out with a cross my heart , hope to die! but they did state ARX was only for cosmetics after the initial pushback against the ARX store.

that said as for the rest........ i accept it may be difficult but it seems to have been an issue self created. plenty of other games survive on paid expansions (i am not going to use games such as NMS which continually pumps out free content as that seems unrealistic, i have no idea how they do it (maybe its some sort of money laundering scheme, Breaking Bad style )

personally i would rather FD create paid expansions. mind you no one forced them to go the MMO route requiring an always on network connection. That was a choice they made (and one that imo has limited the game significantly). Far better would have been a P2P type game imo with limited multiplayer support where you can take your commander progress with out into other games as well as have stuff saved on your pc.

but obviously that was not the call they made, but FD had to know they had operating costs to factor into their budget?

 

[Koma Pahu]

So technically you can start in a T-9 these days.

What a hideous new player experience!

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

What a hideous new player experience!

i love my T9, for the right task of course. its also a good ship to learn FAoff in.

not sure i would start the game in one tho.

 

[Kamiyoda]

I started in a Fleet Carrier

i love my T9, for the right task of course. its also a good ship to learn FAoff in.

not sure i would start the game in one tho.

I would but I'm built different

 

[Koma Pahu]

i love my T9, for the right task of course. its also a good ship to learn FAoff in.

not sure i would start the game in one tho.

I used one for ages, but not sure I’d want to fly it unengineered again

 

[Rat Catcher]

Maybe the people who love personal attacks and semantics about what "P2W" actually means could start their own thread.

There have been no Moderator warnings to discuss the topic not the poster over the 17 pages of this thread, perhaps you might consider reporting each of those personal attacks in the last 17 pages in order to call attention to them?

You know it is the right thing to do if you consider there are personal attacks being made on the forum, as do we all!

 

[Morbad]

I suspected Snuffler claiming to start in a Corvette was a joke, mostly because I was pretty sure he started playing well before there was a Corvette, or any way to do anything without a ship. Context clues, ya know?

That said, it's entirely plausible for someone in the current game to pick almost any ship and literally not fly anything until they get that ship. Anyone who has ever played a first person shooter can just taxi to a warzone, do a few high CZs in the flight suit, buy a set of G3 gear from the shops, then grind out a few hundred million CR and a pile of rank over a weekend. At most they might need to use a ship to do the naval rank-up courier missions, but that's a marginal amount of time that needs to be spent in a ship.

And that's without less legitimate means like buying someone else's account, or having someone play for you...which I'm sure are fairly common occurrences.

So, while I'd find the claim unusual, I certainly wouldn't automatically dismiss someone who says they started in a Corvette (or with a fleet carrier), because I can think of more than one way they could.

(i am not going to use games such as NMS which continually pumps out free content as that seems unrealistic, i have no idea how they do it (maybe its some sort of money laundering scheme, Breaking Bad style )

Evidently ongoing sales more than make up for the cost of ongoing support at Hello Games. I also suspect they have quite a bit lower overhead than FDev. Or maybe they just enjoy making games more.

personally i would rather FD create paid expansions. mind you no one forced them to go the MMO route requiring an always on network connection.

I take Frontier's original justification for this mostly at face value. I still don't think they could build a BGS that works correctly without player contributions. Hell, it doesn't work correctly even with thousands of points of telemetry.

 

[Greasetrap42]

So, while I'd find the claim unusual, I certainly wouldn't automatically dismiss someone who says they started in a Corvette (or with a fleet carrier), because I can think of more than one way they could.

In the context of a public internet forum discussion where a post does not indicate sarcasm or humor, it is simply a response to a discussion, it is fair to make assumptions about what was clearly written... at face value.

 

[Starshot_Jigawatts]

well promise... they didnt spell it out with a cross my heart , hope to die! but they did state ARX was only for cosmetics after the initial pushback against the ARX store.

that said as for the rest........ i accept it may be difficult but it seems to have been an issue self created. plenty of other games survive on paid expansions (i am not going to use games such as NMS which continually pumps out free content as that seems unrealistic, i have no idea how they do it (maybe its some sort of money laundering scheme, Breaking Bad style )

personally i would rather FD create paid expansions. mind you no one forced them to go the MMO route requiring an always on network connection. That was a choice they made (and one that imo has limited the game significantly). Far better would have been a P2P type game imo with limited multiplayer support where you can take your commander progress with out into other games as well as have stuff saved on your pc.

but obviously that was not the call they made, but FD had to know they had operating costs to factor into their budget?

Odyssey was a paid expansion, and it was a disaster. I didn't want space legs and I didn't really know anyone who thought it was a great idea at the time. I think they are making a smarter play here with ships for ARX. As Elite is ALL about our ships, and we're always wanting new ships.

As far as the MMO route...well it is the 2020's. P2P is no longer really viable as it offloads the connection and bandwidth burden to the end-user. Things being saved on client PC's also make cheating and exploits MUCH more viable. Just my opinions.

No Mans Sky sells tons of copies of the game every time they make an update, which covers their nut as the whole NSM team is just ~30 people.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

I take Frontier's original justification for this mostly at face value. I still don't think they could build a BGS that works correctly without player contributions. Hell, it doesn't work correctly even with thousands of points of telemetry.

maybe Fdev couldnt..... but Egosoft managed it, or at least they faked it enough to seem realistic.

 

[Morbad]

In the context of a public internet forum discussion where a post does not indicate sarcasm or humor, it is simply a response to a discussion, it is fair to make assumptions about what was clearly written... at face value.

I'm terrible at recognizing sarcasm and tend to be overly literal, but in this case I felt the context was clear, given that the post was from a long time poster who registered in 2013 while there was not a Federal Corvette until late 2015. I could either have assumed he was an idiot, that he had an atypical progression path, or that he was joking. I felt the later was the safest assumption. Not judging though...I often make incorrect assumptions about how my own statements will be interpreted.

maybe Fdev couldnt..... but Egosoft managed it, or at least they faked it enough to seem realistic.

FDev is special.