If I wanted a 'radio-tuning' game I would have rather bought an old radio.

[Ian Skippy]

Can you just post a link please, or a timestamp in a livestream or something. You are making this a much bigger deal than it needs to be.

It was a post, a rather lengthy one, just prior to the beta. I dont have an archive with all the FD posts and am not going to bother crawling through the forums to find a post that all of you already read and discussed ad nausea. You know what this is about, you directly referenced it numerous times the past few posts so either find it yourself or just say:"Yes, I know that post, they did say that, I do disagree with it, and that is all there is to it." It is a bit... tiresome.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

It was actually a serious question. Why do you insist on pretending FD didnt respond? Do you think FD will forget themselves, forget what made them post, and just do what you want on a whim? Or are you hoping to convince any 'neutral bystanders' who somehow stumble into this topic, will assume you are right and then start chanting along with you? I am trying to understand the reasoning here, because from my perspective 'being disingenious' isn't a really good strategy. FD knows what they responded. They may or may not change their mind, but 'being honest' might help you with the sympathy vote and all that.

Okay, serious answer:

As I posted yesterday (or maybe Sunday) the only statement from FDev regarding the ADS came from the initial announcement livestream, not the forums. That made their initial intentions known, but was prior to anyone having played with the new system. So they haven't said 'no' to any requests to reinstate the ADS, rather they said (paraphrasing) we don't think it's going to affect many people.

Since then, we've all had plenty of time to experience the FSS and the negative impact on a wide range of playstyles has been reported, and numerous suggestions have been made for changes to exploration to address this impact.

FDev have not responded to any of this feedback or to the suggestions and they certainly haven't said 'no, we're still not changing it', so it's incorrect to say we've already had an answer.

Now if there's been any response that I've missed, the PLEASE post a link to it - because ifFDev have said, anywhere, even Reddit, that they've listened but they're not going to change it, then I can stop playing Don Quixote and get on with my life.

 

[Ian Skippy]

Okay, serious answer:

As I posted yesterday (or maybe Sunday) the only statement from FDev regarding the ADS came from the initial announcement livestream, not the forums. That made their initial intentions known, but was prior to anyone having played with the new system. So they haven't said 'no' to any requests to reinstate the ADS, rather they said (paraphrasing) we don't think it's going to affect many people.

Since then, we've all had plenty of time to experience the FSS and the negative impact on a wide range of playstyles has been reported, and numerous suggestions have been made for changes to exploration to address this impact.

FDev have not responded to any of this feedback or to the suggestions and they certainly haven't said 'no, we're still not changing it', so it's incorrect to say we've already had an answer.

Now if there's been any response that I've missed, the PLEASE post a link to it - because ifFDev have said, anywhere, even Reddit, that they've listened but they're not going to change it, then I can stop playing Don Quixote and get on with my life.

Ugh. Okay, you cost me 10 minutes of my life. You better appreciate this.

It was in the first juggernaut topic. The topic is locked, so I cant use the quote function. The OP said that he loved everything FD presented, but hated missing the ADS. As he said:

I love everything except for one thing...I just don't get how this system will be "almost as fast"

I can not believe on my last trip where I visited thousands of systems that this new system would have taken a similar amount of time. Many systems have 50+ bodies and I have to individually select every single one of them?

When FD started talking about travelers I got hype because I thought they understood...and then they go "well using the ADS would give you the same amount of credits as before." and my heart completely stopped.

This isn't about money. I don't care if there's an earth like. I don't care to only scan valuable bodies. The earth like is only valuable to me if it's somewhere cool. Like say in orbit around a gas giant...or inside a planetary nebula.

I AM ONLY looking for systems that are interesting. And the thing about this game is that an interesting system can be anything. Stars, planets, belts, rings, etc. It can be distance, size, color, proximity, mountains, rifts, etc.

This means in order to find these planets you can NOT skip anything. Not a single planet.

FD is effectively taking all the information we had before and forcing us to press a and look around.

Not having to travel to bodies is a plus. mapping planets is a plus. Everything they added is a plus imo EXCEPT for the fact that they missed out why some people like me "travel" as a exploration style.

Because all the information for nearly everything we needed was avaliable from the ADS scanner. Most importantly a basic look at the look of the planets and their distances.

Their is no conceivable way this new system is "just as/almost as fast." when we are talking thousands upon thousands of systems NOBODY has been to before for months on end. I literally have to scan every single planet, in every single system for months on end, individually just to make sure i don't miss anything.

This filter system literally does nothing to decrease my time. I do not have the luxury of skipping any planet. This isn't about money.

I know what I am doing. I know how to find interesting places. And I never needed to fly to a planet to figure that out, I had all the info i needed from the current ads system.


This is leaving me incredibly stressed out. Because when I explore I sometimes detour for 15kly just to visit a single system and then double back. I move fast, I know where I want to go. I sometimes bookmark over 100+ systems in a journey (always deleting and adding new bookmarks for lack of space) and I visit every single one of them. My last major trip lasted for months and I visited over 100 planetary nebula near the core of the galaxy. By zig zagging up and down and all over I made a trip last for months visiting over 5,000 systems. And I looked at the system map for every single one of those places.

And with near 100% certainty I can say didn't skip or miss a single system that was interesting that I jumped too. I always have a drive to go somewhere else, there is always one more location that's thousands of ly away.

Everything about the exploration coming is brilliant imo except for the time needed to scan systems. I don't care about money. My system I found that has a ice planet so close to the rings of a gas giant, that moves fast enough in its orbit you can literally watch it orbit around the gas giant...is worth more then any sum anyone could give to me.

But the scanner would just say it's an icy world near a gas giant. I wouldn't know it was valuable but I knew within 15 seconds of scanning with the current ADS that I had something potentially special.

Adam then responded thusly:

Hi all,

I just wanted to drop by and clear up a few things:

After the first presentation of Exploration, we received a vast amount of feedback and I personally took the time to read a large amount of this. Having done so, we set out to look at the different types of explorers we have in the game and came up with nearly a dozen different types. One of which was the type presented by the OP here. We then tried to use that information to look at the new mechanics to make sure they would work for as many of those types as possible. Unfortunately we weren’t able to come up with a solution that allowed players, like the OP, to maintain their current flow without severely altering the gameplay of the other types or changing the design direction of the FSS.

We’ve made the FSA as readable at a glance as possible, with a lot of information being presented if you wish to master the system. Also as we showcased on the stream, you can become very proficient and quick with the FSS, and we believe that the additional time required isn’t too dramatic.

The Orrery view also means that you should be able to find interesting orbits or clusters of planets without having to actually visit them.

We would love for you to try out the new mechanics during the beta and provide us with feedback on how it impact the way you play.

Repeating that "we just want the ADS back" isn't helping, because here they say they know some want it back, they thought about it, but it isn't working with where they want the game to go. And in case you think I made that quote up, a direct linky is here: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/451442-Frontier-you-talked-about-the-quot-traveler-quot-style-of-exploration-and-misunderstood-one-key-thing?p=7090795#post7090795

 

[Riverside]

Ugh. Okay, you cost me 10 minutes of my life. You better appreciate this.

It was in the first juggernaut topic. The topic is locked, so I cant use the quote function. The OP said that he loved everything FD presented, but hated missing the ADS. As he said:



Adam then responded thusly:



Repeating that "we just want the ADS back" isn't helping, because here they say they know some want it back, they thought about it, but it isn't working with where they want the game to go. And in case you think I made that quote up, a direct linky is here: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/451442-Frontier-you-talked-about-the-quot-traveler-quot-style-of-exploration-and-misunderstood-one-key-thing?p=7090795#post7090795

Thank you for actually providing a citation. Firstly I don't think that's a thread I have referred to at any point, and secondly as expected the information is out of date since the situation changed during the beta & I (and probably others) raised the point that there was no longer any obstacle to retaining the old modules.

Your citation supports my argument that FDev tried to minimise any impact on the playerbase and simply overlooked the opportunity to retain the ADS/IDS/BDS when it became available following changes made during beta.

 

[Burke]

Would love to know what the dozen explorer types were that didnt include the kind of explorer that seeks out rare things and likes to take pictures. Still that was nearly 3 months ago and this new system has been a gameplay disaster for some. I wonder if they might reconsider, as others have suggested the compromise. This would be the first example i can think of, of a dev knowingly excluding a group from their game. A group that had such enthusiam and passion for the game aswell.

Edited to correct time.

 

[Ian Skippy]

Thank you for actually providing a citation. Firstly I don't think that's a thread I have referred to at any point, and secondly as expected the information is out of date since the situation changed during the beta & I (and probably others) raised the point that there was no longer any obstacle to retaining the old modules.

Your citation supports my argument that FDev tried to minimise any impact on the playerbase and simply overlooked the opportunity to retain the ADS/IDS/BDS when it became available following changes made during beta.

And that is why I didnt bother earlier. As expected you just go:"Yeah, well, FD may say they disagree with me but they are wrong because I am right, so this proves I am right." I hope Drew does more with this. In any case, we can drop the "they never responded!" nonsense, and you can carry on claiming FD is wrong and you are right if you want.

 

[IndigoWyrd]

Ugh. Okay, you cost me 10 minutes of my life. You better appreciate this.

It was in the first juggernaut topic. The topic is locked, so I cant use the quote function. The OP said that he loved everything FD presented, but hated missing the ADS. As he said:



Adam then responded thusly:



Repeating that "we just want the ADS back" isn't helping, because here they say they know some want it back, they thought about it, but it isn't working with where they want the game to go. And in case you think I made that quote up, a direct linky is here: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...nderstood-one-key-thing?p=7090795#post7090795

+203 Virtual Rep, one for each page of this Dreadthread.

Guess this kills the “oversight” or “mistake” argument Van Helsing style, and does a cousin Vlad on the rest. Elite: Amish, you’ve been heard. But the hands of the powers that Be are washed and tied.

Viva la majority.

 

[Para Handy]

And that is why I didnt bother earlier. As expected you just go:"Yeah, well, FD may say they disagree with me but they are wrong because I am right, so this proves I am right." I hope Drew does more with this. In any case, we can drop the "they never responded!" nonsense, and you can carry on claiming FD is wrong and you are right if you want.

Yeah I had a right old chuckle at the two immediate responses to that quote being stuck in their face...

(Hardly surprising in light of their combined 500 posts in the thread.)

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

Ugh. Okay, you cost me 10 minutes of my life. You better appreciate this.

It was in the first juggernaut topic. The topic is locked, so I cant use the quote function. The OP said that he loved everything FD presented, but hated missing the ADS. As he said:



Adam then responded thusly:



Repeating that "we just want the ADS back" isn't helping, because here they say they know some want it back, they thought about it, but it isn't working with where they want the game to go. And in case you think I made that quote up, a direct linky is here: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/451442-Frontier-you-talked-about-the-quot-traveler-quot-style-of-exploration-and-misunderstood-one-key-thing?p=7090795#post7090795

Thank you, sincerely for digging that out.

However, as I said, that was posted prior to the beta and addresses only the "It's too slow" complaint about the FSS - which isn't the reason the majority of us are complaining about it. FDev's 'dozen explorer types' doesn't seem to have been nearly enough, resulting in a broader base of dissatisfaction than they were expecting.

Finally, and I think most importantly, they talk about how the FSS couldn't be CHANGED to accommodate every explorer type. We're not (generally) asking for the FSS to be changed, but instead for the option not to use it. Consequently, nothing in that statement indicates that FDev have even CONSIDERED reinstating the ADS (in some format) alongside the FSS and definitely doesn't constitute a response to any of the threads requesting it.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

And that is why I didnt bother earlier. As expected you just go:"Yeah, well, FD may say they disagree with me but they are wrong because I am right, so this proves I am right." I hope Drew does more with this. In any case, we can drop the "they never responded!" nonsense, and you can carry on claiming FD is wrong and you are right if you want.

Sorry, I guess you're disappointed in me now

But while I accept that FDev did respond to one specific issue, still don't feel that it constitutes a 'no, you can't have the ADS back'.

 

[Ian Skippy]

Thank you, sincerely for digging that out.

However, as I said, that was posted prior to the beta and addresses only the "It's too slow" complaint about the FSS - which isn't the reason the majority of us are complaining about it. FDev's 'dozen explorer types' doesn't seem to have been nearly enough, resulting in a broader base of dissatisfaction than they were expecting.

Finally, and I think most importantly, they talk about how the FSS couldn't be CHANGED to accommodate every explorer type. We're not (generally) asking for the FSS to be changed, but instead for the option not to use it. Consequently, nothing in that statement indicates that FDev have even CONSIDERED reinstating the ADS (in some format) alongside the FSS and definitely doesn't constitute a response to any of the threads requesting it.

A disappointing response indeed, but not unexpected. The OP says he wants to use the ADS instead of FSS. FD explicitly says they considered it but wont do so. You somehow interpret it as being completely not related to the exact literal thing they explicitly respond to. Look, I get you really really really want it back. But it is ultra clear that FD knows some would want that, and they said no. You can keep asking for it day after day, but I hope you understand that these forums would be a mess if every single one of us would start a topic about what we want most, and spam that to the top every single day.

 

[Burke]

Perhaps you could apply for a moderator job?

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

A disappointing response indeed, but not unexpected. The OP says he wants to use the ADS instead of FSS. FD explicitly says they considered it but wont do so. You somehow interpret it as being completely not related to the exact literal thing they explicitly respond to. Look, I get you really really really want it back. But it is ultra clear that FD knows some would want that, and they said no. You can keep asking for it day after day, but I hope you understand that these forums would be a mess if every single one of us would start a topic about what we want most, and spam that to the top every single day.

I'm sorry, but FDev made no explicit statement that they have considered maintaining the FSS and ADS in parallel - which (after the OPs rant) is what this thread has been about.

Now I agree that FDev know we want it back - after about 400 pages you'd have to hope they'd noticed - but until they give a 'no' to the question "Can we please have the ADS back as an optional module?" rather than "try the FSS in the beta and hopefully it'll be okay" I'm gonna keep on asking the question.

To clarify:
The response they gave "We can't populate the System Map from the FSS without breaking the gameplay for other players" is valid and I have no problem with it - despite the fact that that's exactly what happens in the Bubble - but that isn't the question being asked.

 

[Stigbob]

I'm sorry, but FDev made no explicit statement that they have considered maintaining the FSS and ADS in parallel - which (after the OPs rant) is what this thread has been about.

Now I agree that FDev know we want it back - after about 400 pages you'd have to hope they'd noticed - but until they give a 'no' to the question "Can we please have the ADS back as an optional module?" rather than "try the FSS in the beta and hopefully it'll be okay" I'm gonna keep on asking the question.

The "Are we there yet" approach hasn't worked for offlinegaters or compulsory PVP'ers and they've been going for four years. So don't hold your breath.

 

[Bryan K]

Yeah I had a right old chuckle at the two immediate responses to that quote being stuck in their face...

(Hardly surprising in light of their combined 500 posts in the thread.)

Likewise. It’s quite amusing watching them come up with ever increasingly delusional means of ignoring direct evidence that the ADS is gone for good.

One direct and very clear “no” isn’t enough, so how many does it take? Two? Three? Four or more, from different devs? Does Braben have to stand on the Pope’s balcony and proclaim it to the masses?

 

[Burke]

Does Braben have to stand on the Pope’s balcony and proclaim it to the masses?

We would be honored by comment from him. Like reddit got.

If FD put a new line of ships that were store only but had odd quirks and one of them happened to have the ADS in it, thats basicly an instant sale for me. £19.99? More? Take my money.

Edit: yeah im gonna put a disclaimer. Make it jump 20ly or sometihng stupid, thats not gonna fly

 

[Riverside]

Likewise. It’s quite amusing watching them come up with ever increasingly delusional means of ignoring direct evidence that the ADS is gone for good.

One direct and very clear “no” isn’t enough, so how many does it take? Two? Three? Four or more, from different devs? Does Braben have to stand on the Pope’s balcony and proclaim it to the masses?

Let's try answering this with some role reversal. If the ADS were added back into the game as a purchasable module how long would the 'they caved to the whiners' comments continue for?

This has only become a big deal for some because it has now gone on so long. Had the oversight been picked up even during beta this would be a non-issue.

 

[Stigbob]

Let's try answering this with some role reversal. If the ADS were added back into the game as a purchasable module how long would the 'they caved to the whiners' comments continue for?

This has only become a big deal for some because it has now gone on so long. Had the oversight been picked up even during beta this would be a non-issue.

There was no oversight its a baseless assumption.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

The "Are we there yet" approach hasn't worked for offlinegaters or compulsory PVP'ers and they've been going for four years. So don't hold your breath.

True, but Engineering is a completely different beast now to when it was released, so there's always hope.

 

[Bryan K]

Let's try answering this with some role reversal. If the ADS were added back into the game as a purchasable module how long would the 'they caved to the whiners' comments continue for?

This has only become a big deal for some because it has now gone on so long. Had the oversight been picked up even during beta this would be a non-issue.

What you strangely continue to call an oversight was, as the quote makes crystal clear, a deliberate design decision, after FDev already considered the consequences. There was no changing their minds from the get-go.

A cursory flip-through of this thread should show them that their decision is justified, as only a tiny group of rather irate players is unwilling to adapt. They aren’t going to go back and reverse that decision. They have no profitable reason to do so.