Ignoring or harming PvP in game design is contributing to ganking

[Stealthie]

Its not a double standard- popping a new player for nothing is not the same as fighting over cargo. Hence why for most of this thread I've said for the majority of encounters I'm not fussed, except for Powerplay and piracy.

It is a double standard.
You, apparently, just can't see it - or are unwilling to admit it.

Personally, I'd say both actions are unethical but, y'know... it's the rules of the game.

Gotta say, I've probably annoyed PvPers once in a while by menu-logging.
If I get engaged in combat then I'll see it through but I do sometimes fly in Open for a specific reason and then I'll head over to, say, Jameson and I'll see a player FdL heading toward me, remember I'm in Open and menu log.
If people don't like that, tough.

 

[Rubbernuke]

It is a double standard.
You, apparently, just can't see it - or are unwilling to admit it.

Personally, I'd say both actions are unethical but, y'know... it's the rules of the game.

Gotta say, I've probably annoyed PvPers once in a while by menu-logging.
If I get engaged in combat then I'll see it through but I do sometimes fly in Open for a specific reason and then I'll head over to, say, Jameson and I'll see a player FdL heading toward me, remember I'm in Open and menu log.
If people don't like that, tough.

Is it? One is applied correctly when its needed, the other is when a legitimate interaction is nullified.

Personally, I'd say both actions are unethical

So player piracy is griefing now?

 

[Robert Maynard]

Which means player piracy is null and void in Open, because you can't guarantee that you'll have a conclusion to that situation. The trader loses, yet wins. Why were they in Open?

.... because "people" - features are in place in Open to permit any player to excise other players from their game and leave the game at any time.

I expect that ganking in general has not persuaded Frontier to change these features.

When consequences mean nothing, you don't have a game. Block words, not actions in Open, otherwise nothing can be worthwhile beyond trading or mining.

There are consequences in the PvE game - other players remain an optional extra, even in Open.

To the detriment of the game? PvP piracy is a dismal failure in ED, even though it should be a main driver for other player based roles.

If it's not "fun" for both parties, no-one needs to do it. Forcing ones playstyle on other players is rather selfish.

It is what it is, someone has something you want, you fight to take it or are driven off.

.... or leave by other means.

The problem is that FD have cultivated a credit rich economy to the point where everyone mines, and rebuys, fuel, repairs are meaningless. It did not help that trade ships had weak hulls when pirates try to disable ships.

I expect that availability of credits and affordability of rebuys is influenced, in part, by ganking - so that the ganker can't easily bankrupt a player with rebuys.

Which is a contradiction- you have consequences but only to the point you deem them acceptable- to some thats cargo, some its destruction, others its simply seeing a hollow triangle- but all of them undermine the foundations of an ecosystem that if done properly would be built around them.

It takes two to tango. There is no need to play the game as part of any ecosystem that some desire.

If you don't want to be tackled, you don't play football- if you don't want to be shot at or robbed, don't go into the mode that allows it since you are doing just as much harm as the griefer is.

If you don't want to be blocked or menu-exited on, don't play multi-player.

This is where Open Powerplay comes in, a self contained, double gated feature.

I doubt that the block feature would receive an exemption in existing Open just for Powerplay, noting that it does not have one after being part of the game for about five years.

Hence the suggestion to seek another game mode more suited to a particular play-style preference, a play-style preference that Open (and all the features available to players in Open) does not satisfy.

 

[Rubbernuke]

.... because "people" - features are in place in Open to permit any player to excise other players from their game and leave the game at any time.

I expect that ganking in general has not persuaded Frontier to change these features.

Then FD have intentionally killed player piracy, and made being in Open pointless really for certain roles and features.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Then all you will get is more ganking, because nothing matters in the game and the situation you have now.

Gankers can be excised from ones game if one so chooses.

And to me its a compromise that curtails piracy to the point of irrelevance, and Open Powerplay interactions as meaningless.

Piracy suffers simply because "proper" pirates seem to be few and far between. If players only ever encountered "proper" pirates and enjoyed the encounter then I'd expect that they'd view the prospect in a better light, rather than the expectation that the random interdiction is just another pointless gank, wasting their time.;

 

[Robert Maynard]

Then FD have intentionally killed player piracy, and made being in Open pointless really for certain roles and features.

I expect that the way that some players play the game has done that - and that Frontier see a continued need for both menu exit and the block feature.

 

[TiberiusDuval]

Well I haven't read / understood the whole thread. But I don't want to eliminate ganking and have the funds again for a couple more Imperial Cutter rebuys.
But I opened a "mitigate" thread under Suggestions with a small - suggestion.

Well if you pay full price of your ship when in rebuy screen, AND full insurance of everything you criminally destroyed, every time you get caught it becomes mightily expensive fast.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Gankers can be excised from ones game if one so chooses.

The whole point of this discussion is to understand why it happens and to mitigate it in a way thats constructive.

Piracy suffers simply because "proper" pirates seem to be few and far between. If players only ever encountered "proper" pirates and enjoyed the encounter then I'd expect that they'd view the prospect in a better light, rather than the expectation that the random interdiction is just another pointless gank, wasting their time.;

There were huge amounts of pirates to begin with, who soon worked out people logged rather than losing. If people want risk free trucking, don't risk Open.

 

[Rubbernuke]

I expect that the way that some players play the game has done that - and that Frontier see a continued need for both menu exit and the block feature.

The problem is a combination of many things, which are harder to sort long term but would have made a better game in the long term. FD have kept to what they do best sadly.

 

[Stealthie]

So player piracy is griefing now?

Firstly, I provided the example of a player in full-on PvP ship exploding a sidewinder. I didn't mention piracy.
Secondly, I said that action was unethical. I didn't mention "griefing".

Thing is, if you're a "respectable" pirate then maybe you should consider that it's the gankers who're harming your game-experience too, by teaching players to menu-log at the first sign of trouble?

Let's face it, some players are always going to menu-log - just as some players are always going to gank - but if players thought they were likely to pirated, rather than simply exploded for no reason, they might be more inclined to stick around.

Honestly, I used to regularly fly my up-armored T7 around at CGs with the specific intention of attracting PvPers and I used to live in hope that I'd eventually encounter an attacker willing to provide a bit of roleplay.
Closest that I ever saw was somebody who sent a message saying "In the name of the Emperor, die!" before attacking me.
Other than that, it was just interdiction and then pew-pew.

If you're an outlaw, act like one.
If you're a murder-hobo, don't try and tell me you're an outlaw.

 

[Falcon_D]

Hello,
Didn't we have a thread called "Hotel California" where all these PvP vs PvE vs Open vs Group vs Solo would go?
This debate has been raging for the last 4/5 years.
My opinion:
The 3 modes are here to stay,
Play your way.

 

[Drelthar]

So, PvP bad, PvP good?

 

[THECATISDEAD]

So, PvP bad, PvP good?

Peepee bad, poo poo good!

 

[Drelthar]

Peepee bad, poo poo good!

Agreed.

 

[CaptainPugwash]

Firstly, I provided the example of a player in full-on PvP ship exploding a sidewinder. I didn't mention piracy.
Secondly, I said that action was unethical. I didn't mention "griefing".

Thing is, if you're a "respectable" pirate then maybe you should consider that it's the gankers who're harming your game-experience too, by teaching players to menu-log at the first sign of trouble?

Let's face it, some players are always going to menu-log - just as some players are always going to gank - but if players thought they were likely to pirated, rather than simply exploded for no reason, they might be more inclined to stick around.

Honestly, I used to regularly fly my up-armored T7 around at CGs with the specific intention of attracting PvPers and I used to live in hope that I'd eventually encounter an attacker willing to provide a bit of roleplay.
Closest that I ever saw was somebody who sent a message saying "In the name of the Emperor, die!" before attacking me.
Other than that, it was just interdiction and then pew-pew.

If you're an outlaw, act like one.
If you're a murder-hobo, don't try and tell me you're an outlaw.

As a pirate I agree that gankers harm pirates and in fact part of the 'contract' between pirate and 'client' is that the client gets protection, if compliant.
I also totally agree that lack of RP is the main problem with ganking, it's just pure laziness if you don't at least send a preset "die you noob scum" message.

 

[Robert Maynard]

The whole point of this discussion is to understand why it happens and to mitigate it in a way thats constructive.

It happens because people can, purely and simply. Mitigating all ganking would require player/player damage to be removed completely, in my opinion.

There were huge amounts of pirates to begin with, who soon worked out people logged rather than losing. If people want risk free trucking, don't risk Open.

Maybe player pirates aren't that much fun to encounter. Being leached of cargo by someone who can't be bothered to earn it themself doesn't sound like much fun.

 

[Robert Maynard]

The problem is a combination of many things, which are harder to sort long term but would have made a better game in the long term. FD have kept to what they do best sadly.

Frontier put in place features that are required, in their view, in their multi-player game, even if those features adversely impact particular confrontational playstyles.

 

[SMcA]

Frontier put in place features that are required, in their view, in their multi-player game, even if those features adversely impact particular confrontational playstyles.

Another way of looking at it is: If they spoil my game, I'll spoil their game by menu logging.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Frontier put in place features that are required, in their view, in their multi-player game, even if those features adversely impact particular confrontational playstyles.

And instead of quick fixes that cause problems, why not build an ecosystem that naturally makes griefers run out of money? By having a game where money falls out the sky and nothing matters you are fueling the problem.

 

[Rubbernuke]

It happens because people can, purely and simply. Mitigating all ganking would require player/player damage to be removed completely, in my opinion.

It happens because of boredom (PvE game challenge wise levels out far too early), money is too plentiful and its impossible to lose a situation (i.e. consequences are minimal).

Maybe player pirates aren't that much fun to encounter. Being leached of cargo by someone who can't be bothered to earn it themself doesn't sound like much fun.

But thats ED- piracy has been in the game since 1984. Are you saying that any negative consequence now is optional?