And, when that happens, what's stopping you from abandoning the mission and going to pick up another one?
In system jumps.
- Thread starter LazyCalf
- Start date
And, when that happens, what's stopping you from abandoning the mission and going to pick up another one?
Bushido?
You can get an ointment for that.
1)Mr. Impatient explorer being able to scan a given system does not affect you, the patient explorer, because there is no risk of running out of stuff to explore. That's what you were discussing and what I was countering, remember? How other people being able to microjump would affect you, the patient player who doesn't want to?
2) Oh, ok. So it IS common for gameplay to require long supercruise trips, then. I see. If that's the case, then telling people to just avoid long trips if they don't have a lot of time or patience is not a great approach, as that, since it's not uncommon, means they're locked out of a lot of gameplay options. Doesn't sound very fair to them, and insisting they stay locked out is a fairly selfish attitude.
3) Being able to micro jump in any direction is entirely dependant on the implementation. FDev could easily make it so you can only microjump to stars, or make it so you can only microjump to celestial bodies, but the cooldown or fuel cost makes it time-inefficient or impractical to make several indirect jumps.
4) I was pointing out that preserving CG ranking balance is a bad argument, as that balance doesn't exist in the first place, nor has FDev made any indication that they care to establish it.
You keep claiming I have a selfish mentality at work because I want the game changed to better accommodate people who are either less patient, or simply have less time available to devote to gaming sessions. Have you considered that it's equally "selfish" to vehemently insist that the game NOT be changed, for the sake of not stepping on the toes of people that enjoy long supercruise trips? There are plenty of people on both sides.
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Why?
Again, I have no beef with you. I like watching youtube while I'm playing a game.
What else is there to do, count down ETA seconds? And I do not do drugs so I have a hard time imagining myself dealing with rigors of spess.
And how about microjumps with no cargo onboard only?
If two people are exploring the same system then the one using micro-jumps is, indisputably, going to have an advantage.
If you're going to counter that by suggesting that I go elsewhere I think it's perfectly reasonable to point out that YOU could do exactly the same thing, in search of a system that doesn't bore you with travel.
I wouldn't say it's especially common.
Feel free to fire up the game, take a look at a mission board and tell me what percentage of the missions available involve SC journeys of >100kls if you want to.
And then, while you're there, see how many long-haul missions there are for which there aren't alternatives which don't involve long-haul journeys.
Possibly so.
Regardless, when a person is able to jump like that, it's going to dramatically shorten the opportunities another player has to intercept.
It doesn't exist between modes.
The ability to enact micro-jumps would only ever create greater disparity within modes.
Not really, no.
Give me an example of something that is flat-out impossible unless a person has, say, 2 hours to spare - and there's no alternative available - and I'll be happy to agree with you.
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Non issue. You know that is a possibility before you even accept the mission. I always look at the system map before I take one to see if this could possibly happen to me. Surely you do as well? If it could, happen that the spawn is a long way away, and I don't have the time, or feel like risking that possibility, then I don't take the mission. Not everyone should be entitled to, or even deserves to do anything at anytime just because they want to.
I want to move my Queen like a knight, and I should be able to because she can mimic the moves of every other piece in the game.
This is a bit of a logical fallacy. The game is what it is at this point. Your argument that it's selfish to ask for the game to not be changed is not valid, as a change is not imminent nor obligated to be made.
The discussion, though framed in the OP to be specifically about getting First Discovery Tags at far off companion stars, has grown to theorize how these proposed changes would affect the game on the whole. Explorers, content with the system as designed, are explaining how these proposals would fundamentally change how we have learned to play the game which has been given. We are well within the standard of civil discussion to say that no changes are needed. Advocating for the status quo is not inherently selfish. It could be construed as such if there were some imbalance to exploit the status quo provides, but I don't think anyone believes long supercruise journeys are exploitable.
The burden is always on the advocate for change. The first thing the advocate needs to do is demonstrate a need for change. Thus far, no need has been demonstrated beyond simple want.
This post is cool and good
It's a fundamental component, but not the be all. (It proves particularly telling out in the black though, which is an aspect you don't touch on below. I honestly think you'd be a massive fool to use it when exploring - although there are some fun wrinkles that could be explored - such as uber-rare components for rare repairs etc.)
But let's go through trade examples, as you make some fine points:
Currently I see the time saving as far less than that. More like:
* Jump prep [0 secs -> 3 mins depending on familiarity]
* Jump process [Approx 1/10th of a normal inter-stellar transit]
* From arrival to station [1 min -> 5 mins depending on skill, as you can end up anywhere in the orbital reach of the destination star]
Add in the heightened risk of piracy, via: plotting time near starter sun / telegraphed transit line and drop point / damaged craft vulnerabilities etc, and there's another big 'delay' variable in the mix. (Which could be balanced with the help of NPCs etc). So would could say something like:
* Extra pirate delays, from interdictions & engagements etc (and occasional death by crashing into sun): [2/10ths of average transit time??]
The approx total for an established '10 minute transit' route = 5 mins from sun to station say. [Totally open to more massaging on this, this is a first take ultimately].
Basically the intention is to reduce the time in deadspace with near no stimulus / emergent events / input requirement (as this is the bugbear), and replace it with actions within or near 'geography'. Contracting the time taken isn't actually the core aim, nor the core result hopefully.
Well I mean everyone loses under that scenario right?
So my napkin numbers above put the time saving at approx half. So you'd be making 30mil ph with jumps. So you'd still need to die like 3 times per hour for parity.... So hmmmm. Yeahhhhh. Some other parameter needs to come into play
Possibly the answer is hefty fines? Like the use of the drive is illegal? Part of me likes that. It's occasional enough in its use generally, and the 'reward' of skipping the uber-space-'naturalism' might feel worth it to me.
We should remember that damage costs and lost loot will also come into play on top of rebuys, but they'll be more variable. (I mean I guess you could instigate a higher likelihood of the cargo bay giving out, and have cargo spillage take place, but that's possibly getting silly
)It's a tricky one, but not insurmountable I don't think...
I'm not really pitching this from a 'don't have a lot of time' perspective. Not precisely anyway, although it's in the mix. My primary objective is fun, for those that find it in more active places. That's a primary aim. To make a fun mechanic, that also happens to be fair to broader playstyles etc.
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Well, good on ya for showing some willingness to listen. [up]
Personally (and I'm happy to admit this), I'm the eternal cynic.
Whenever somebody proposes anything for a game like ED, my first thought is always "how can this be abused?"
On that basis, I'm forced to think of stuff like Rhea and Smeaton and the insane potential for earnings, which inevitably leads to a nerf.
Honestly, as I originally said, I'd be quite happy with some kind of a system that allowed you to "subscribe" to a stations personal nav-beacon and jump directly to it (possibly after working to gain allied status).
You'd pay a substantial fee for this; either, perhaps, 10% of your mission rewards or, say, Cr50m per week.
Trouble is that I know it'd end up having the living poop exploited out of it somehow and that's why I'm forced to give it the thumbs-down. [sad]
1) imagine a beach with endless sand. I'm given a shovel, and you're given a trowel. I'll be able to collect sand faster than you can, but there's no risk of either of us running out of sand to scoop. Furthermore, it's highly unlikely that we'll both happen to try to scoop the exact same sand at the same time, or even see each other. Someone exploring faster than you does not affect you.
2) It's either common, or uncommon. Since your stance seems to flip at a moment's notice to suit your argument, I'll just let this be. Since counter points have been raised to both of your conflicting stances, I suppose it doesn't matter.
3) Again, 100% dependant on implementation. Microjumps could just as easily make it easier to intercept someone that's in another part of the system as you.
4) All modes share the same ranks in CGs. There's no "top 10 in open" and "top 10 in solo." My point was as such, microjumps (assuming they'd even be relevant in the system chosen for a given CG) would not impact CG ranking balance any more than it's already affected by modes. No balance exists now, this there's nothing to preserve.
5) The number of times I've had assassination missions or planetary scan missions spring a several hundred ls away target on me isquite high. You have no way of knowing what body the target will be at until you've taken the mission, and scanned the nav beacon in the destination system. These are not impossible to do in a hour session, but the travel time cuts into it considerably. If I only have 2 hours to play, I don't want to be spending a lot of it just waiting while my ship flies itself in a straight line.
To this end, I think your Inter-Sun idea is most closely aligned with current playstyles. Some tweaks needed, but closely aligned.
I was thinking of a similar system, but didn't want to theorycraft it all out. It is essentially a mash-up of Freelancer's trade lanes & E: D's interdiction minigame. Natural, cosmic "Filaments" routing through the systems (like in MadDogs wiki link) could be entered, and as long as the pilot maintained position within the filament, they would be able to exceed the supercruise speed limits. Gravitational fields would interact with the filaments, causing dynamic routing so the routes were never completely static. Falling out of alignment with the filament before returning to safe speeds would lead to dropping from supercruise, ship damage, and FSD cooldown (like Emergency Drops). Higher speeds further restrict maneuverability, increasing difficulty in staying aligned with an undulated, twisted filament. Optional system with risk, opens opportunities for interdictors to gain advantages when pilots "spin out," dynamically changes so routes wouldn't be memorized, utilizes existing coding for minimal development challenges, & doesn't offer much in the way of exploit-ability as far as I can tell.
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No worries! I'm serious about trying to find a system that essentially works for all (even if the dev effort in this case is pointed towards facilitating my preferred gamestyle). I need input from guys with other perspectives for that! That was exactly the kinda dialogue, crit & theorycrafting I was looking for
Ay, problem is, everything can be abused
. Think all the designers can do is close off as many sneaky avenues as they can when deploying the new...Oo, access fees is an intriguing one. Has a fuzzier and more pro-active vibe than fines. Yeah, intriguing
So, if neither of us are likely to run out of sand, why do YOU insist on having a shovel?
No,
The only thing that's happened is that you've failed to understand what's been said.
The earlier discussion was about UNEXPECTED long-haul travel. That is uncommon enough to not justify micro-jumps.
I offered no opinion on how common long-haul travel is in general.
Personally, I'd guess that it's involved in, say, 10% of missions at most.
And they'll all be missions for which there's a similar mission available which doesn't involve long-haul travel.
That being the case, there is (once again) no justification for micro-jumps.
So, your only defence of a hypothetical proposal is "it might not be like that"?
Well, in that case I'm afraid I'll have to refute that by saying "Well, it might be like that".
That makes no sense.
Regardless of what mode is in use a player who is willing to use micro-jumps will always have a potential advantage available to them.
And, don't bother going with the whole "it's depend on implementation" thing again to prove your point because it's just as easy for me to argue the opposite.
So abandon the mission and take another one.
In fact, take half a dozen and just abandon any that look like they'll bore you.
That would be really cool. It would trim down long trips a bit, but more importantly make them an active and engaging process. Longest trips wouldn't be an issue if you were actually playing the game during them, so this idea sounds excellent.
I totally agree. The problem with adding something new into the game is how it effects other play styles and how it can be abused is not always considered. I would research every negative possibility adding the feature and come up with solutions to resolve them. Only THEN will it be a well thought out edition worth consideration and might even get some acceptance.
No worries! I'm serious about trying to find a system that essentially works for all (even if the dev effort in this case is pointed towards facilitating my preferred gamestyle). I need input from guys with other perspectives for that! That was exactly the kinda dialogue, crit & theorycrafting I was looking for
Ay, problem is, everything can be abused
Oo, access fees is an intriguing one. Has a fuzzier and more pro-active vibe than fines. Yeah, intriguing
Until you get the whiners complaining about how unfair the access fees are, that they shouldn't be limited just because us unemployed mouth breathers have more time to grind credits than they do. And what are you left with to counter their argument? No body is forcing you to use it?
Lestat
Banned
Let see. I am on Distance world II and they added this feature There 2 groups of 2 thousand people each. The lazy mirojump group and the patient explorer group. We are all going the same locations who loses out? By the time the patient player get to their destination. The lazy mirojump group has already explored and gone explored 6x the systems patient group. How is that fair? It not. See the Lazy Mirojump group has an I win button.
If we keep as is now. All the lazy mirojump group has to do now is ask them self this. Is that distance to far for me. If it too far they can jump to a new system. Depending on the distance and what at the other star the patient explorer group would earn about the same amount as the lazy group.
Here what selfish. Not using common sense. When you do exploration or accepting missions. Also, why not blame your Job or school for keeping you away from the game.
So yes the lazy miro jump group has an I win button over the people who rather use normal supercruse Who is it hurting again? We can look at Distance world II exploration group again. Mirojump group Will be able to do the trip 6x as fast while taking all the good systems. Which they did NOT earn. Tell me is that Fair? For me It not Fair.
Well I can say you have a selfish mentality. Start blaming your work school instead of blaming the game. Take some vacation time. Start using some common sense when you play. I also do work. I not going to blame the game on how much time I have after work. I will adjust my gameplay depending How much time I have left in a day before bedtime. If I have 1 2 hours before bed. I will only explore main stars. Then jump to a new system. It would have to be 2 3 earth like world to have me waste my time to go to the other star.
Nice one, cheers! I'm hopeful that there's a solution here somewhere. Whether FDev dollop the dev time on it is another matter
The whole 'drive down the high risk / high speed' curvy highway definitely feels like it could add to the game, leveraging the local geography in varied ways, as you say. (I kinda like the player input 'tether' I've gone for, but an 'organic' system built up from the local geography could be cool too - and would also benefit from the slow variations due to orbits etc. My only concern would be the pre-load for each system might be larger under such an approach?)