In system jumps.

  • Some players prefer Time-vs-Reward gameplay.
  • Some players prefer Risk-vs-Reward gameplay.
  • Accommodating both play styles would be best wherever possible.

Personally I think it's possible in this case. And hey, in versions like my idea, everyone also gets an Orrery. Win-win, surely! ;)

I agree and to be honest we kind of already have that. Sometimes I like both depending on mood.
 

Stealthie

Banned
While this may be true, surely you can see that not knowing in advance whether a long trip is going to be imposed is an issue?

Not really, no.

It doesn't happen that often, when it does happen it's usually predictable and it also provides an strategic consideration for the player to make.

Allow me to offer some statements I think we could all agree on:


  • Some players prefer Time-vs-Reward gameplay.
  • Some players prefer Risk-vs-Reward gameplay.
  • Accommodating both play styles would be best wherever possible.

It's for the best when favouring one metric isn't to the detriment of the other.
 

Stealthie

Banned
I think people see it as an experience and obviously don't see it as tedious. Nothing to do with skill.

If the parameters of the mission changes to something I don't want then I dump the mission. It can be annoying at times, but it happens so rarely that is isn't a major concern for me.

If a faster more skill based version of supercruise came along it wouldn't bother me and it wouldn't bother me if it never came either. I don't see it as necessary for the game at all. I would prefer them to work on more pressing issues to be honest.

Exactly.

And, let's face it, despite the protestations about lack of time and inconvenience, the main result of this is going to be that people are going to absolutely hammer the living poop out of it to make credits out of long-haul passenger/cargo missions with the result that they'll end up getting nerfed again.

Which means that, despite all the "if you don't like it, don't use it" rhetoric, the only way people currently doing those missions would be able to maintain their current rate of earning would be to start using it too.
 
Not really, no.

It doesn't happen that often, when it does happen it's usually predictable and it also provides an strategic consideration for the player to make.

I disagree on all points, but most profoundly on the 'predictable' aspect. As cited above, there are a ton of scenarios in which the long trip is sprung on you, and which no due diligence can detect or avoid. Short of never ever doing any of the mission types involved, which would be ludicrous (it's not like assassination missions are classic time-to-reward gamer territory after all...), you will find the playstyle enforced upon you.

In terms of frequency I'd say anecdotally that 1 in 10 of my missions involve a long distance redirect, even though I take every step I can to avoid them during mission selection. Obviously this wouldn't feel as impactful for you if you don't find their imposition an issue, but to me it either leads to rep/cash loss due to an abandonment I couldn't foresee (destinations over 10 mins away), or me walking away from the game swearing while the ship flies itself for 10 minutes. Having that happen 1 in 10 times is deeply annoying from a risk-reward player's perspective.

It's for the best when favouring one metric isn't to the detriment of the other.

Sure. But currently the balance would seem to favour time-to-reward playstyles in the above scenarios. That's the point. There is an imbalance that could be addressed.
 
I think people see it as an experience and obviously don't see it as tedious. Nothing to do with skill.

Yep I do get that, and I try to be understanding of other player's desires and playstyles. (Hence the nature of the micro jump design I'm mooting, which - although I can see wouldn't appeal to all as a use of dev resources, beyond the orrery stuff - would ideally accommodate all styles once in place).

It's just easy to become a bit grouchy when the same understanding isn't proffered in the other direction ;) (IE those who refuse to accept there's an issue here for those of us who don't enjoy the experience & find ourselves forced to endure it despite taking measures to avoid it etc.)
 
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Exactly.

And, let's face it, despite the protestations about lack of time and inconvenience, the main result of this is going to be that people are going to absolutely hammer the living poop out of it to make credits out of long-haul passenger/cargo missions with the result that they'll end up getting nerfed again.

Which means that, despite all the "if you don't like it, don't use it" rhetoric, the only way people currently doing those missions would be able to maintain their current rate of earning would be to start using it too.

Me lieks Netflix. Remind me why APilot is not in the game though...
 

Stealthie

Banned
I disagree on all points, but most profoundly on the 'predictable' aspect. As cited above, there are a ton of scenarios in which the long trip is sprung on you, and which no due diligence can detect or avoid. Short of never ever doing any of the mission types involved, which would be ludicrous (it's not like assassination missions are classic time-to-reward gamer territory after all...), you will find the playstyle enforced upon you.

In terms of frequency I'd say anecdotally that 1 in 10 of my missions involve a long distance redirect, even though I take every step I can to avoid them during mission selection. Obviously this wouldn't feel as impactful for you if you don't find their imposition an issue, but to me it either leads to rep/cash loss due to an abandonment I couldn't foresee (destinations over 10 mins away), or me walking away from the game swearing while the ship flies itself for 10 minutes. Having that happen 1 in 10 times is deeply annoying from a risk-reward player's perspective.

I guess your experience is colouring your perception of the issue.

Personally, when I'm running missions I tend to get through around 5 an hour.

I get missions involving unexpected long-distance redirects that are compulsory roughly, say, once a week.

I don't pay a huge amount of attention to what I'm doing but I do manage to notice when I'm flying around systems with destinations a long distance away and think twice about accepting missions to those systems if I want to avoid a long flight.
 

Stealthie

Banned
It's just easy to become a bit grouchy when the same understanding isn't proffered in the other direction ;) (IE those who refuse to accept there's an issue here for those of us who don't enjoy the experience & find ourselves forced to endure it despite taking measures to avoid it etc.)

When 90% of the game already accommodates your play-style and you're advocating changing the other 10% of the game to help accommodate you as well, you're not being quite as easy-going as you'd like to think you are.
 
So much this!

to quote FDEV: We don't want to waste your time.
90 mins flight to hutton.
45 mins to Smeaton
other 30+ mins of flight where nothing happens and you just sit there and watch the screen go woosh woosh.

I'm not saying put an instant mode in, but make it reasonable. 5 mins of flight - sure, I take it.
45 mins or anything the likes: Nope!
I only get to play an hour or 2 a day, if that, I'd like to play the game, not watch a movie when I'd like to play the game.
anything above 30 mins is wasting time.

If you have time constraints, and you still chooses to make those runs, it's not FDEV that is wasting your time.
 
I suppose it was inevitable that this one would come up for discussion again. It usually does from time to time.

Supercruise. The gameplay aspect everyone loves to hate. Always portrayed as "netflix time" or something similar. Set the blue, point in the right direction and wait. Except it isn't. There's fun in learning the mechanics of supercruise well enough to use them in your favor. How to use gravity wells as convenient brakes, the good ways to use them to scrape off a pursuing pirate (or copper) before they can interdict you, how a carefully judged overshoot might not result in a "loop of shame" but in your pursuer never getting into position to pull you over. Know it well enough and you get to the point you can do these things to players not just to NPCs, to the point that you're near impossible to catch in SC if you're prepared to "play the game" because there's no such thing as a "faster ship" in SC, only a "better SC pilot".

Nobody wants that gone, at least nobody who isn't secretly wishing for an "I win" button or to take the sense of scale completely out of the game, but yes, it can sometimes take huge amounts of time. So people talk about intrasystem jumps and autopilots, because thankfully most folks are smart enough to realize that in a shared realtime environment the kind of time-compression single-player games use is a non-starter. Given that autopilots appear to be completely off the table (there has never been a hint of a favorable response from FD regarding any more automation than the docking computer) that leaves microjumps.

FD HAVE engaged with the subject of microjumps. I remember at least two previous threads on the subject where Sandro got involved. Now Sandro is good at his job and knows not to commit FD to anything that they have not already publicly announced but in both those discussions he was prepared to admit that the subject of microjumps between the stars of multistellar systems had been discussed at fD and that it hadn't explicitly been ruled out. They don't want to cramp the sense of scale but they are aware of the frustrations folks feel over excessive SC times. At the same time places like Hutton that are (in)famous for being a long trip from the drop point have become the focus of several "community features" and I can see why they wouldn't want those factors vanishing either.

I think I have an answer that's a suitable compromise. Nav beacons. When the game fist appeared they were placeholders and were nothing more than a persistent deep-space instance. They were later given the functionality of "scan them for complete system info." Currently there is one per system located near the system primary. I propose adding nav beacons to most, but not all, other stars in inhabited multistellar systems too. You can scan any of them for complete system info, just as you can the solitary one in the system now. Once you have that complete info you can microjump but only from one nav beacon to another in the same system. I said "most but not all" because of course nobody wants to take away Hutton's special cachet. Sadly the Proxima system would be one of those which still only had a single nav beacon. There would be others where you still had no option but to make the run in SC too. Of course, since their target systems are uninhabited, explorers would find their gameplay unimpacted. There might also be (given the laws of probability there almost certainly would be) situations where you're at a station so far out from its star that it would actually be quicker to SC over to a station orbiting a different star in the same system than to SC back to the primary, microjump then SC out to your target station from the other stars nav beacon. Sense of scale preserved, need to make informed planning decisions preserved, a little more depth added to no harm and significant gain to folks frustrated with extended SC times.
 
I guess your experience is colouring your perception of the issue.

Personally, when I'm running missions I tend to get through around 5 an hour.

I get missions involving unexpected long-distance redirects that are compulsory roughly, say, once a week.

I don't pay a huge amount of attention to what I'm doing but I do manage to notice when I'm flying around systems with destinations a long distance away and think twice about accepting missions to those systems if I want to avoid a long flight.

We need a proper stat analysis. Maybe one day I will bother to do it. (It seems possible this discrepancy of experience is about more than just perception. Possibly the mission types I tend towards are more prone to unpredictable redirects?)

PS in terms of prep yes I eschew any job passing through distant-multi-star territories (sometimes jobs will send you to the next one along though, and I'm not going to start excluding systems next to systems with distant star set ups. The prep starts becoming ridiculous.)

The only time recently I even accepted a mission without knowing the exact make-up of every system was when trying out some passenger variants. You can imagine how it went ;). (I could perhaps have dumped the mission with a suspiciously high payout, but that's not a step I've managed to pull the trigger on yet :D)

When 90% of the game already accommodates your play-style and you're advocating changing the other 10% of the game to help accommodate you as well, you're not being quite as easy-going as you'd like to think you are.

No, I'm (repeatedly) saying that you should still be able to play your way. I'm not trying to change the way you play the game. The solution I'm suggesting is predicated on that principle.
 
If there were more interactions to engage in during super cruise, it wouldn't be a problem.

It's a blank slate, something a passionate game designer should love.

Fill it in with awesome stuff and no one would complain.
 
You don't see the difference between failing a mission, using a suite of designed mechanics (chaff, modular damage, ECM, evasive flying, mass lock etc etc etc), versus abandoning a mission because it's suddenly changed its parameters massively and become incredibly tedious with no warning?

A fairer comparison here would be if an AI boss was unbalanced and performed as a nigh-unkillable tank, causing you to abandon the mission because you found the process not worth the time commitment or fun-to-reward ratio. And I think we could agree that would be poor game design at play...

I realise now that you see tedium endurance as a skill. And honestly, as I say, you are welcome to your skill. Just don't arbitrarily enforce it on others. That is the game design decision that is particularly poor.

I actually find most combat to be just this. I still take on assassination missions for the BGS influence gains. My skill and equipment is pretty much invincible in those missions, but when the elite corvette is spamming SCB, it just becomes a tedious waiting game until they run out of them. Yes, I know I could fit the engineered shield breakey things to sort of counter them, but the battle is still a pointless time sink. I wish they could just cut through the crap, because it's a foregone conclusion that I am going to win the battle, and the AI behaviour just leads to a time sink.

What needs to be done for PvE combat is say, if you have won 10 of those missions in a row, then for say the next 10, you just get automatic credit for them since you have proven that you are a winner. After that, you need to reprove your skills by winning say three in a row, before another ten passes.
 
et the blue, point in the right direction and wait. Except it isn't. There's fun in learning the mechanics of supercruise well enough to use them in your favor. How to use gravity wells as convenient brakes, the good ways to use them to scrape off a pursuing pirate (or copper) before they can interdict you, how a carefully judged overshoot might not result in a "loop of shame" but in your pursuer never getting into position to pull you over. Know it well enough and you get to the point you can do these things to players not just to NPCs, to the point that you're near impossible to catch in SC if you're prepared to "play the game" because there's no such thing as a "faster ship" in SC, only a "better SC pilot".

Yet only challenge to Hutton is to not overshoot...
 
Yet only challenge to Hutton is to not overshoot...

You are right, because pirates do not attack in between, only "near" the stars. Also the USS do appear, but you can not use them, as they go by to fast at highspeed. They disappear before you can slow down.
 

Stealthie

Banned
No, I'm (repeatedly) saying that you should still be able to play your way. I'm not trying to change the way you play the game. The solution I'm suggesting is predicated on that principle.

Yes but you are, apparently, failing to understand that introducing in-system jumps WILL affect everybody regardless of whether they use it or not.

It's a mutually exclusive outcome. There is no compromise that won't affect those who don't want it.

The only compromise that can work is the one that already exists, whereby most gameplay is suitable for those who get bored easily but a tiny amount is designed to appeal to those with more patience.

Go do something else instead.
 
Yes but you are, apparently, failing to understand that introducing in-system jumps WILL affect everybody regardless of whether they use it or not.

It's a mutually exclusive outcome. There is no compromise that won't affect those who don't want it.

The only compromise that can work is the one that already exists, whereby most gameplay is suitable for those who get bored easily but a tiny amount is designed to appeal to those with more patience.

Go do something else instead.

Please give a minimum of 3 valuable examples how i can effect your game, if i use micro jumps and you are not.
 

Stealthie

Banned
Please give a minimum of 3 valuable examples how i can effect your game, if i use micro jumps and you are not.

Exploration: You can make more discoveries, more quickly.
Missions: The ability to complete missions much quicker, and thus earn far more cr/hr is likely to lead to reduced mission payments for everybody.
PvP: Reduced opportunities for combat.
CGs: Reduced delivery time improves ranking.
BGS: Reduced delivery times alters outcome.
General: Increased earning potential means you can accrue funds more quickly to your further advantage.

Never understood the whole "What I do doesn't affect you" thing, TBH. It's a blatant lie.
 
Yes but you are, apparently, failing to understand that introducing in-system jumps WILL affect everybody regardless of whether they use it or not.

I recognise there's a potential slippery slope. The min-maxers will always be slaves to the meta, and may feel forced to use it 'against their will' to stay competitive.

As mentioned in the breakdown though, it's possible that the risk level could be set to make it a preference choice. IE if the risk is set around the right level, those who gain from faster turnarounds etc will periodically lose their ship, load & life. The system is designed to make that likely. (Especially aspects like the tracer trails which advertise their arrival point, definitely damaged... and easy prey...)

Ideally it could be made to remain mainly a personal preference which approach you take.


The only compromise that can work is the one that already exists, whereby most gameplay is suitable for those who get bored easily but a tiny amount is designed to appeal to those with more patience.

Go do something else instead.

'Expecting a game to involve input during a 10 minute period' is a really weird definition of 'get bored easily'.

I happen to have lots of patience. My communicating with you is proof of that ;)

However, reasoning with you is proving difficult. As mentioned, it is very difficult to avoid this issue of unwanted redirects. The only guaranteed technique is to not play the game at all. If you are truly advocating the 'play something else' doctrine, then I suggest you don't hurl the words 'selfish, petulant and entitled' at others ;)

Regardless I'll keep advocating for a system that defends your right to play your way...
 
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