Increase the Speed of certain medium ships

[IcemanAJL]

As put in the title, I think several of the less used medium ships would benefit from a speed buff. Currently there are three medium ships that are dreadfully slow for their classification and purpose.

Asp Scout: all that maneuverability means nothing when it can’t actually use it’s turning effectively against less agile but faster ships. It should if anything be faster than the Asp Explorer to reflect that it is a stripped AspX that focuses on agility over multipurpose.

Keelback: It has two more thrusters stuck on its side yet is slower than the T-6? It should at least be as fast, which would also give it the unique role of being the fastest SLF ship compensated by the fact that it can only use the C5 hangar bay. An additional military slot would also help reflect the Keelback’s purpose as a combat T-6 variant.

Cobra IV: Here I don’t think the Cobra IV should be as fast as the III, but it should still be decently fast so that it can deal better with combat engagements and not be picked off easily.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

Pedantry alert!

The exclusive Cobra IV is a small ship, not a medium.
It's still an ungainly brick though

 

[IcemanAJL]

Pedantry alert!

The exclusive Cobra IV is a small ship, not a medium.
It's still an ungainly brick though

I barely remember that it’s not a medium because, even though I own one, it’s far too slow that it’s just gathering dust.

Also it really shouldn’t be exclusive anymore, it’s served it’s role as a timed exclusive long enough. At the very least it could be added in to Tech Broker or something for those that do not have access to the IV.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

I barely remember that it’s not a medium because, even though I own one, it’s far too slow that it’s just gathering dust.

Also it really shouldn’t be exclusive anymore, it’s served it’s role as a timed exclusive long enough. At the very least it could be added in to Tech Broker or something for those that do not have access to the IV.

Well, it was never stated to be a 'timed exclusive', so personally I don't think there's any justification for changing its availability.

But there's a billion other threads on that topic already

 

[IcemanAJL]

Well, it was never stated to be a 'timed exclusive', so personally I don't think there's any justification for changing its availability.

But there's a billion other threads on that topic already

Well since you brought it up, it’s a terrible mechanic to lock gameplay behind exclusives. A paint job or cosmetic sure, a whole ship though should be available to everyone to unlock. (Even if said ship is currently trash)

 

[varonica]

Keelback: It has two more thrusters stuck on its side yet is slower than the T-6? It should at least be as fast, which would also give it the unique role of being the fastest SLF ship compensated by the fact that it can only use the C5 hangar bay. An additional military slot would also help reflect the Keelback’s purpose as a combat T-6 variant.

The Keelback is a dedicated cargo transport designed for moving cargo through combat zones, it's more heavily armed and armoured than a T6, it is a heavier variant of the T6, the reason it's slower is because of its higher mass. The two more thrusters in the art are entirely irrelevant, it still takes the same size thrusters, 4A to E but has a hullmass of 180t compared to the T6 155t. If you want it to go faster you would need to fit larger thrusters.

It has higher base shield higher base armor, in every way it is a much more combat capable ship and it can carry an SLF, and now you want to make it faster?

 

[Frenotx]

The Keelback is a dedicated cargo transport designed for moving cargo through combat zones, it's more heavily armed and armoured than a T6, it is a heavier variant of the T6, the reason it's slower is because of its higher mass. The two more thrusters in the art are entirely irrelevant, it still takes the same size thrusters, 4A to E but has a hullmass of 180t compared to the T6 155t. If you want it to go faster you would need to fit larger thrusters.

It has higher base shield higher base armor, in every way it is a much more combat capable ship and it can carry an SLF, and now you want to make it faster?

You know what's a great way to get cargo through a dangerous area? Being fast enough to not get shot. The keelback is sturdier, but it being so slow and un-maneuverable means it will get hit by a lot more damage. Even if you build the ships such that they have the same total mass (very easy to do), the keelback remains considerably slower and less maneuverable. If you bring a fighter bay and shield (to capitalize on the better at combat thing), its cargo hold becomes quite small. The keelback is a mess of over-compromises. Instead of its strengths being balanced by weaknesses (good game design, even if FDev often throws this concept out the window), they're outright negated by them.

I've had a decent about of fun haz res farming in my keelback, but it really isn't the right tool for the job, and the only reason I can get away with it is the combination of the stupid amount of power increases offered by good engineering, and the fact that NPCs neither have engineering or great builds, nor do they fully utilize the flaws of the flight model. It's like using a WWII fighter plane to attack a renaissance-era army, and then saying "This is a good plane" when modern aircraft exist as competition.

 

[fus roh potato]

Are we talking about top speed or acceleration here?

I want to agree. Some of the medium ships, and especially the largest, are too dang slow. It's just not fun seeing them top out at 350 m/s, or even the bulkier t9 types at 220. However, when it comes to acceleration, I'd also say that some of the faster medium ships, and the largest, accelerate too dang fast. It makes the ships, stations, and universe seem very small when a ship the size of a skyscraper can accelerate to supersonic speeds (at earth sea level) in just two or three seconds. It also skews balance. They are massive lumbering ultra health point 8/9 gun shredding platforms but can out-maneuver the worlds greatest jet fighters. It doesn't seem right, reasonable, believable, nor fair because the medium ships in concern here (I'm assuming FGS and Dropship) are just as slow.

 

[Nero Tacitus]

Hey! Wait your turn OP.

I dropped half a billion on my 'Vette and I get outrun by literally 90% of the game. You think the ASP is slow? It's 25% faster than my 'epitome of PvE combat", pfft.

 

[varonica]

You know what's a great way to get cargo through a dangerous area? Being fast enough to not get shot. The keelback is sturdier, but it being so slow and un-maneuverable means it will get hit by a lot more damage. Even if you build the ships such that they have the same total mass (very easy to do), the keelback remains considerably slower and less maneuverable. If you bring a fighter bay and shield (to capitalize on the better at combat thing), its cargo hold becomes quite small. The keelback is a mess of over-compromises. Instead of its strengths being balanced by weaknesses (good game design, even if FDev often throws this concept out the window), they're outright negated by them.

My point, which seemed to have been missed entirely, was that you can't just "make a ship faster."

The OP is implying they can just "make the ships faster" by apparently magic of some sort. if ship A has more mass than ship B and uses the same thrusters then it's going to be slower. If they make the Keelback faster then they have to remove everything that makes it a Keelback and turn it into basically another T6, mind you no complaint here, I would love a ship exactly the same as a T6 but able to carry a SLF.

Lets quote the OP again;

It should at least be as fast, which would also give it the unique role of being the fastest SLF ship compensated by the fact that it can only use the C5 hangar bay. An additional military slot would also help reflect the Keelback’s purpose as a combat T-6 variant.

Basically he wants to keep it's extra base armor and shield, keep its SLF, give it an extra military slot which again will add more mass, but without increasing the size of its thrusters, make it go faster. The only way to maker it go faster without invoking some sort of magic is to give it a size 5 thruster slot, which means losing one of its size 5 cargo bays. Since the other size 5 is needed for the SLF you would have a grand total of about 20 tons of cargo space.

So the point is, you can't make a ship go faster without reducing it's mass or giving it bigger thrusters, neither of which the OP wants to do.

 

[Frenotx]

My point, which seemed to have been missed entirely, was that you can't just "make a ship faster."

The OP is implying they can just "make the ships faster" by apparently magic of some sort. if ship A has more mass than ship B and uses the same thrusters then it's going to be slower. If they make the Keelback faster then they have to remove everything that makes it a Keelback and turn it into basically another T6, mind you no complaint here, I would love a ship exactly the same as a T6 but able to carry a SLF.

Lets quote the OP again;


Basically he wants to keep it's extra base armor and shield, keep its SLF, give it an extra military slot which again will add more mass, but without increasing the size of its thrusters, make it go faster. The only way to maker it go faster without invoking some sort of magic is to give it a size 5 thruster slot, which means losing one of its size 5 cargo bays. Since the other size 5 is needed for the SLF you would have a grand total of about 20 tons of cargo space.

So the point is, you can't make a ship go faster without reducing it's mass or giving it bigger thrusters, neither of which the OP wants to do.

You totally can just make a ship faster. Flight mechanics don't work like the FSD where it's strictly module vs. mass; For fight characteristics, ships each have their own baked-in base values that are then MODIFIED my the relationship between mass and the thruster module. It's why the keelback is still slower than the T6 even if you build the keelback lighter, despite having the same thruster module. It's also why the anaconda remains fairly slow, despite being extraordinary light for its 7A thrusters. If FDev wanted to raise the speed of a given ship, all they'd need to do is adjust those base values.

 

[Zelos1983]

Just throwing in:
The (maximum) speed is arbitrarily enforced by the flight computer. It has nothing to do with size, mass or amount of thrusters on any given ship.

My point, which seemed to have been missed entirely, was that you can't just "make a ship faster."

The OP is implying they can just "make the ships faster" by apparently magic of some sort. if ship A has more mass than ship B and uses the same thrusters then it's going to be slower. If they make the Keelback faster then they have to remove everything that makes it a Keelback and turn it into basically another T6, mind you no complaint here, I would love a ship exactly the same as a T6 but able to carry a SLF.

Yes, you can. The flight computer calculates a given speed limit and then cuts off thrust or engages thrusters overriding user input to achieve the limit.
Ingame, you could just change the number in the flight computer or operate the thrusters manually to achieve a higher speed.
Offgame, FD can arbitrarily set numbers/ranges for each ship. Doesn't make it any more or less believable.

The only thing is that heavy ships with low thrust take much longer to accelerate. But due to the low speed limits (both translational and rotational) even a fighter feels as slow as a large vessel.

 

[SushiCW]

Keelback is just fine, thank you. I'm already a bit uncomfortable with how fast & nimble it is once engineered, it loses that feeling of heft.

Personally, I'd rather go the opposite direction and tone down speed/agility on some of the other medium&up ships, which are even more ludicrous.

 

[IcemanAJL]

My point, which seemed to have been missed entirely, was that you can't just "make a ship faster."

The OP is implying they can just "make the ships faster" by apparently magic of some sort. if ship A has more mass than ship B and uses the same thrusters then it's going to be slower. If they make the Keelback faster then they have to remove everything that makes it a Keelback and turn it into basically another T6, mind you no complaint here, I would love a ship exactly the same as a T6 but able to carry a SLF.

Lets quote the OP again;


Basically he wants to keep it's extra base armor and shield, keep its SLF, give it an extra military slot which again will add more mass, but without increasing the size of its thrusters, make it go faster. The only way to maker it go faster without invoking some sort of magic is to give it a size 5 thruster slot, which means losing one of its size 5 cargo bays. Since the other size 5 is needed for the SLF you would have a grand total of about 20 tons of cargo space.

So the point is, you can't make a ship go faster without reducing it's mass or giving it bigger thrusters, neither of which the OP wants to do.

Well since you seem to like implying that I don't know the weight and mass of the ships involved, despite owning both and testing them myself, have some links:

Here is a stripped Keelback: https://eddp.co/u/Wl6qcHUD

Here is a super-heavy T-6: https://eddp.co/u/E2mNFdWc

They both use the same class of 4A thrusters, but in this example the T-6 is over 100T heavier yet still faster than a stripped out Keelback.

Edit: and for some added fun:

Here is a stripped Asp Scout: https://eddp.co/u/Jx4WwEXf

Here is a stripped Cobra IV: https://eddp.co/u/eVBXTsfX

Both are also Class 4A maxed thrusters, all three ships highlighted here came out at the same time and have the unfortunate trait of holding extremely slow speeds for their mass and thrusters compared to every other ship in the game.

 

[varonica]

Well since you seem to like implying that I don't know the weight and mass of the ships involved, despite owning both and testing them myself, have some links:

Here is a stripped Keelback: https://eddp.co/u/Wl6qcHUD

Here is a super-heavy T-6: https://eddp.co/u/E2mNFdWc

They both use the same class of 4A thrusters, but in this example the T-6 is over 100T heavier yet still faster than a stripped out Keelback.

Edit: and for some added fun:

Here is a stripped Asp Scout: https://eddp.co/u/Jx4WwEXf

Here is a stripped Cobra IV: https://eddp.co/u/eVBXTsfX

Both are also Class 4A maxed thrusters, all three ships highlighted here came out at the same time and have the unfortunate trait of holding extremely slow speeds for their mass and thrusters compared to every other ship in the game.

That's a joke right? Once you replace the engineered power plant in the T6 with a standard one it has a speed of exactly 0.

So in that configuration it's not faster, it can't actually fly.

 

[Frenotx]

That's a joke right? Once you replace the engineered power plant in the T6 with a standard one it has a speed of exactly 0.

So in that configuration it's not faster, it can't actually fly.

}----[The Point]---->

[You]
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