Incrementally Improving PowerPlay - Make PowerPlay Open-Only

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
And unless an NPC can seriously challenge a player and alter how they play, its not working.
Then they would need to be "bespoke" to each player - and take into account the "hardness" (a phrase Sandro used in one discussion) of the player's ship.

I don't foresee a situation where most players would be effectively locked out of a feature due to the challenge being set for a small subset of the player-base in ships designed for maximum risk-reduction.
 
Then they would need to be "bespoke" to each player - and take into account the "hardness" (a phrase Sandro used in one discussion) of the player's ship.

I don't foresee a situation where most players would be effectively locked out of a feature due to the challenge being set for a small subset of the player-base in ships designed for maximum risk-reduction.
They do need to be unique, but they also need to be persistent, which NPCs can never be in ED. NPCs are hamstrung by extremely short drop zones, vestigial nav points, leaving SC alone for half the powers as well as CZs for combat expansionists.

Players can circumvent all these limitations.
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
They do need to be unique, but they also need to be persistent, which NPCs can never be in ED. NPCs are hamstrung by extremely short drop zones, vestigial nav points, leaving SC alone for half the powers as well as CZs for combat expansionists.

Players can circumvent all these limitations.
Indeed players can circumvent all these limitations - a game has to be "winnable", at least some of the time else it's not "fun".
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
It means as a design right now, no-one wants to engage with it. Now, you can either ignore the feature or remake it into something that attracts players.

Will that be done by copying the BGS? Why would someone play both when one is based on 5yr old mechanics?
Then the best thing to do would be to redesign it to be attractive to all players, not PvP-gate it and make it unattractive to players who don't find PvP to be "fun".
Powerplay is made right now for the benefit of all players, and look how its done. Its failed to achieve any critical mass of players as it stands. If anything it needs a razor sharp focus to provide it with a reason to still exist and make it easy for players to know what its about.
It does appear to have fallen into the "if not enough players engage in it then it won't get much Dev time" category.
 
Indeed players can circumvent all these limitations - a game has to be "winnable", at least some of the time else it's not "fun".
But thats the problem- Powerplay is dependent on the balance between attack and defence. Solo and PG, thanks to NPC limitations is far too safe, leading to defence being far too easy (compounded by consolidation). NPCs can't 'think' like players, they can only exist as RNG when a player us traveling. A player can chase, attack intelligently and has the capability to alter deliveries, making defence much more difficult- and if defence is harder it means more turmoils and more systems given up.
 
Then the best thing to do would be to redesign it to be attractive to all players, not PvP-gate it and make it unattractive to players who don't find PvP to be "fun".
And that I'd be happy for- a total redesign would be fantastic but from what FD have shown thats not happening. Unless something big is coming the proposed changes are 'it' in scope.

It does appear to have fallen into the "if not enough players engage in it then it won't get much Dev time" category.
Indeed it has. But an awful lot of features are the same- MC, CQC, PP, ranks etc all have been left fallow. FD indicated changes would come 'if the chance presented itself' well EDO is that time really.
 
Market changed a bit since last OOPP threads, there is new space combat multiplayer game, and we may see few more, Elite have to fight for place in this genre, OOPP IMO is very "cheap" way to be competetive with this kind of games, also IMHO best thing elite have is flight model and space combat, not adding real pvp feature with oddysey is westing potential of those.
 
Market changed a bit since last OOPP threads, there is new space combat multiplayer game, and we may see few more, Elite have to fight for place in this genre, OOPP IMO is very "cheap" way to be competetive with this kind of games, also IMHO best thing elite have is flight model and space combat, not adding real pvp feature with oddysey is westing potential of those.
Put it this way- if Powerplay had been changed two years ago, you'd have had a SW Squadrons style mode for free. But two years ago FD went through the wobbly patch with ED which was a shame.
 
Then they would need to be "bespoke" to each player - and take into account the "hardness" (a phrase Sandro used in one discussion) of the player's ship.

I don't foresee a situation where most players would be effectively locked out of a feature due to the challenge being set for a small subset of the player-base in ships designed for maximum risk-reduction.
Pretty sure this already affects PP ship spawns in combat PP activities - or at least combat rank of player, being in wing and rating of wingmates, oh and maybe PP bounty, which is also valid since it reflects your combat strength; hardness of ship would be a no brainer too for me if it's not already in the calculation. But currently the actual ships you get show that these factors are vastly underweighted. And there's virtually no bother at all from NPCs if you are hauling or just sitting in system.
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
Market changed a bit since last OOPP threads, there is new space combat multiplayer game, and we may see few more, Elite have to fight for place in this genre, OOPP IMO is very "cheap" way to be competetive with this kind of games, also IMHO best thing elite have is flight model and space combat, not adding real pvp feature with oddysey is westing potential of those.
Whether Frontier want to make PvP any less optional in their game remains to be seen.

Regarding Odyssey, I strongly suspect that "Frontline Solutions" may be the gateway to the Sphere of Combat which I expect will offer PvP mixed mode combat:
The Sphere of Combat

Experience intense first-person combat, kit out your character with an array of weapons and gear, and coordinate with teammates to master a multi-layered, deep, tactical environment where Commanders, SRVs and Starships converge.
 
Forcing people to play PowerPlay in Open will promote larger ship battles and allow the focus to shift from pure strategy towards lower-level tactics. PowerPlay has already produced some of these exciting and immersive battles, but despite many Powers pledging to play only in Open, they remain rare occurrences rather than happening every week at contested points in the galaxy.
You simply are misunderstanding a very simple concept, you force people to do something they don't want to do all you end up doing is losing the base. Not magically increasing the player base.

Say I made a rule in my Restaurant that you must wear high heels to eat here. Doesn't matter if you are a man, woman or child everyone must wear high heels what do you think will happen?

The answer is simple, the people who already wear it will remain since it doesn't affect them. People who don't mind will stay which is a tiny minority. The vast majority will leave for another restaurant.

There isn't going to be any "magical" transition off "super in-depth gameplays" or whatever fantasy you may think is going to happen. If you want PvP tactics that is what EVE is for. The fact is ED carved its own niche successfully because it gave harbor to people who didn't want the stress of EVE.

If you want more people to play Open - then you have to compromise in the other direction. By making open a safer environment for players to avoid grief. For example, having super capital ships patrol sectors of space and have military starbases that launch fighters to assist people in distress. That way the griefer has to quickly finish his prey or be overwhelmed by frigates warping in dropping fighters.
 
You simply are misunderstanding a very simple concept, you force people to do something they don't want to do all you end up doing is losing the base. Not magically increasing the player base.

Say I made a rule in my Restaurant that you must wear high heels to eat here. Doesn't matter if you are a man, woman or child everyone must wear high heels what do you think will happen?

The answer is simple, the people who already wear it will remain since it doesn't affect them. People who don't mind will stay which is a tiny minority. The vast majority will leave for another restaurant.

There isn't going to be any "magical" transition off "super in-depth gameplays" or whatever fantasy you may think is going to happen. If you want PvP tactics that is what EVE is for. The fact is ED carved its own niche successfully because it gave harbor to people who didn't want the stress of EVE.

If you want more people to play Open - then you have to compromise in the other direction. By making open a safer environment for players to avoid grief. For example, having super capital ships patrol sectors of space and have military starbases that launch fighters to assist people in distress. That way the griefer has to quickly finish his prey or be overwhelmed by frigates warping in dropping fighters.
Your restaurant example doesn't really make sense because you're not taking into account the amount of people who has given up on Powerplay over the years because of the problems this proposal is meant to solve. It's true Open Only could make some people stop playing, but for many others it's a reason to return or give it a try for the first time.

Honestly, the "if you want PVP go play EVE" argument is tiring and doesn't help Elite in any way. It's the same as if I told the all modes are equal crew to go play No Man's Sky if what they want is to hide in a safe space.
 
Your restaurant example doesn't really make sense because you're not taking into account the amount of people who has given up on Powerplay over the years because of the problems this proposal is meant to solve. It's true Open Only could make some people stop playing, but for many others it's a reason to return or give it a try for the first time.
Really wouldn't because it doesn't "add" anything for players who don't want to do it.
"Forcing" a group of people to play open to get rewards doesn't make them suddenly be like, "Oh my god I got to get back into Open cause its forced and I love being forced!"

The idea is exactly the same as the Restaurant analogy. Forcing people to do something is not going to make people who don't want it suddenly decide it is worth it. If that were the case EVE wouldn't be struggling with new players. A few months ago EVE said 89.7% new players stay for only 1 week before quitting.

Data shared during the keynote revealed that EVE’s player retention rate over the first week a player joins the game is only around 10%. A full 89.74% of new players who sign up for EVE Online quit within the first seven days.
That is why I said, if you want players to play open - forcing won't accomplish anything. Instead it needs to do the exact opposite. Make it safer for players to do open and they are more inclined to go open.

Honestly, the "if you want PVP go play EVE" argument is tiring and doesn't help Elite in any way. It's the same as if I told the all modes are equal crew to go play No Man's Sky if what they want is to hide in a safe space.
No Many sky is about ground exploration, not Space. So no it really isn't.
 
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You simply are misunderstanding a very simple concept, you force people to do something they don't want to do all you end up doing is losing the base. Not magically increasing the player base.
That player base that engages in Powerplay now you mean? That really tiny one?

Say I made a rule in my Restaurant that you must wear high heels to eat here. Doesn't matter if you are a man, woman or child everyone must wear high heels what do you think will happen?

The answer is simple, the people who already wear it will remain since it doesn't affect them. People who don't mind will stay which is a tiny minority. The vast majority will leave for another restaurant.
How do you know how many people wear high heels?

There isn't going to be any "magical" transition off "super in-depth gameplays" or whatever fantasy you may think is going to happen. If you want PvP tactics that is what EVE is for. The fact is ED carved its own niche successfully because it gave harbor to people who didn't want the stress of EVE.
Open instantly makes threats actually real, with ships that can kill you and disrupt your time playing.

If you want more people to play Open - then you have to compromise in the other direction. By making open a safer environment for players to avoid grief.
In a mode about killing and disrupting other powers via violence? You already have a mode where killing is not wrong, bolted onto a feature that is about direct confrontation.

For example, having super capital ships patrol sectors of space and have military starbases that launch fighters to assist people in distress. That way the griefer has to quickly finish his prey or be overwhelmed by frigates warping in dropping fighters.
How about just helping your teammates, or building better ships?
 
Really wouldn't because it doesn't "add" anything for players who don't want to do it.
"Forcing" a group of people to play open to get rewards doesn't make them suddenly be like, "Oh my god I got to get back into Open cause its forced and I love being forced!"

The idea is exactly the same as the Restaurant analogy. Forcing people to do something is not going to make people who don't want it suddenly decide it is worth it. If that were the case EVE wouldn't be struggling with new players. A few months ago EVE said 89.7% new players stay for only 1 week before quitting.
People struggle with Eve because its like being hit by a brick wall.

That is why I said, if you want players to play open - forcing won't accomplish anything. Instead it needs to do the exact opposite. Make it safer for players to do open and they are more inclined to go open.
Powerplay is too safe as it is- because of that it makes defense way too easy leading to powers being able to defend huge territories, and attack pointless pea shooting. If anything attack and danger have to be dominant, otherwise you wind up with the current situation of stasis.
 
Really wouldn't because it doesn't "add" anything for players who don't want to do it.
"Forcing" a group of people to play open to get rewards doesn't make them suddenly be like, "Oh my god I got to get back into Open cause its forced and I love being forced!"

The idea is exactly the same as the Restaurant analogy. Forcing people to do something is not going to make people who don't want it suddenly decide it is worth it. If that were the case EVE wouldn't be struggling with new players. A few months ago EVE said 80% new players stay for only 1 week before quitting.

That is why I said, if you want players to play open - forcing won't accomplish anything. Instead it needs to do the exact opposite. Make it safer for players to do open and they are more inclined to go open.

No Many sky is about ground exploration, not Space. So no it really isn't.
Intentionally or not, you're missing my point completely. Read my comment again. What I'm saying is there are a lot of players who left and would return if this proposal was implemented.

And yeah, No Man's Sky is about ground exploration and EVE is a point and click game and doesn't really let you pilot space ships. Can we agree we all can keep playing Elite even if we disagree on some things?
 
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Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
Honestly, the "if you want PVP go play EVE" argument is tiring and doesn't help Elite in any way. It's the same as if I told the all modes are equal crew to go play No Man's Sky if what they want is to hide in a safe space.
It's not the same at all - because this game was designed to allow each player to decide whether or not to play among other players - hence the three game modes that share the single galaxy state. This game already provides players the means to affect the galaxy without interacting with players - which is why proposals like the OP exist, because some players can't accept that players don't need to play with them to affect this game.
 
This game already provides players the means to affect the galaxy without interacting with players - which is why proposals like the OP exist, because some players can't accept that players don't need to play with them to affect this game.
Exactly, and this is fine for most things in Elite but makes Powerplay a watered-down PVP mode. Players are already playing with each other when they do Powerplay in Solo, they are affecting others' experience. This is the part you seem to fail to understand.
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
Exactly, and this is fine for most things in Elite but makes Powerplay a watered-down PVP mode. Players are already playing with each other when they do Powerplay in Solo, they are affecting others' experience. This is the part you seem to fail to understand.
I don't "fail to understand" at all - as Powerplay was consciously implemented in all three game modes, it is clearly not a feature that requires any player to engage in PvP. It does offer, for those players so inclined, the opportunity to engage in PvP with opposing like-minded players - in that sense it already provides consensual PvP. What it does not do, and never has, is force players to play in Open to participate in the feature.

Players in Open (and the oft forgotten Private Groups) also affect the experience of players in Solo - by design.

There's a clear difference between what Powerplay is and what some players want it to be - and what those players want it to be involves PvP-gating it, effectively removing it from a not insignificant subset of the player-base and actually removing it from console players without premium platform access, even though every player bought access to it as part of the base game.
 
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