Interdiction Dodgers

[DarkWalker]

Sadly, that is not as completely far fetched as it should be; I recall players on Eve forums pushing to tax high-sec trade into oblivion since the profitable commodities in low and null sec still were not attracting enough fish to the barrel.

In Ultima Online, collecting resources in Felucca (PvP land) gives twice as many resources as in Trammel (PvE land). Even then, Felucca is nearly empty, and has been even since Trammel was first introduced.

Now, if offering twice as much rewards still can't bring players into the PvP zones, I guess it's a good indication about how much those players staying in Trammel truly enjoy, or not, the PvP...

---

What I'm saying is, a fence out in the middle of pirate stronghold anarchy land is going to give a much better price to someone he knows (our proverbial pirate) , over joe schmoe just wandering in. lets say, just for hypotheticals, said fence gives the people with high standings .75 on the credit for items. He gives random people just walking in .50 on the credit.

Give pirates a faction, with its own reputation. Have the amount of credits paid for fenced goods depend on how good the player's reputation with the pirates. Pirate reputation is increased by doing missions for them and trading stolen goods (e.g., obtained by pirating) with them, and decreases when doing missions that target pirates or doing things that needlessly brings law enforcement on them (such as killing a clean commander).

More dynamic, somewhat realistic, and gives actual pirates a strong incentive to not needlessly kill pilots.

 

[Rivka]

Give pirates a faction, with its own reputation. Have the amount of credits paid for fenced goods depend on how good the player's reputation with the pirates. Pirate reputation is increased by doing missions for them and trading stolen goods (e.g., obtained by pirating) with them, and decreases when doing missions that target pirates or doing things that needlessly brings law enforcement on them (such as killing a clean commander).

More dynamic, somewhat realistic, and gives actual pirates a strong incentive to not needlessly kill pilots.

I'd go as far as saying multiple pirate factions, based off the current criminal organizations. Pirates don't have to work together, maybe Pirate Faction A is having a war with Faction B. Give the pirate factions missions and PvE content, for the exact reason of not needlessly killing.

Now, being a strong proponent of PVP, I'd also like to see something along the lines of a "reverse kill warrant scanner". Pirate style item, you use it to scan a PC, and it gives you a bounty you can turn into pirate factions for credits. Now, flying around with one of those would be highly frowned upon by the civilized portion of the galaxy, and if they see you with one, they're likely to give chase....

I just see it as a good way to build in more player interaction. Our proverbial pirate needs some cash to buy one of those super beam lasers. He takes a mission that says "Go hijack this freighter in lawful space, get the goods, and bring em back here. As he gets into lawful space, Bounty Hunter Jim notices him, gives chase, and interdicts. The pirate scans him with his reverse KWS, and they fight it out!

A second advantage to this, is it gives a chunk of legitimacy to claims of griefing. A guy rolling out from a pirate station, with high criminal factions going on the hunt is a pirate. He has a legit in-game motive for the things he does. If he goes out and shoots up 4-5 PCs before getting run off, well he's doing piratical things, building up his rep, etc. On the other side, if you see some random dude out there with no pirate standings, just yanking ships out of SC and blowing them up for the lulz, you can be a lot more confident in your statement that the guy is just griefing with no motive. A criminal faction is going to have need of hitmen, assassins, terrorists, those types of non-pirate "kill 'em" PVPers. Someone pulling those actions without benefit to a criminal faction isn't playing the game, they're just trying to annoy others.


Now, I don't want to toot my own horn and gloat, but if you guys really think these are good ideas, PM or mail them off to the frontier devs. I don't mind, and I'd be thrilled to know some of my ideas for improvement made it into the game.

 

[SE-Apocalypse]

I'd go as far as saying multiple pirate factions, based off the current criminal organizations. Pirates don't have to work together, maybe Pirate Faction A is having a war with Faction B. Give the pirate factions missions and PvE content, for the exact reason of not needlessly killing.

Now, being a strong proponent of PVP, I'd also like to see something along the lines of a "reverse kill warrant scanner". Pirate style item, you use it to scan a PC, and it gives you a bounty you can turn into pirate factions for credits. Now, flying around with one of those would be highly frowned upon by the civilized portion of the galaxy, and if they see you with one, they're likely to give chase....

I just see it as a good way to build in more player interaction. Our proverbial pirate needs some cash to buy one of those super beam lasers. He takes a mission that says "Go hijack this freighter in lawful space, get the goods, and bring em back here. As he gets into lawful space, Bounty Hunter Jim notices him, gives chase, and interdicts. The pirate scans him with his reverse KWS, and they fight it out!

A second advantage to this, is it gives a chunk of legitimacy to claims of griefing. A guy rolling out from a pirate station, with high criminal factions going on the hunt is a pirate. He has a legit in-game motive for the things he does. If he goes out and shoots up 4-5 PCs before getting run off, well he's doing piratical things, building up his rep, etc. On the other side, if you see some random dude out there with no pirate standings, just yanking ships out of SC and blowing them up for the lulz, you can be a lot more confident in your statement that the guy is just griefing with no motive. A criminal faction is going to have need of hitmen, assassins, terrorists, those types of non-pirate "kill 'em" PVPers. Someone pulling those actions without benefit to a criminal faction isn't playing the game, they're just trying to annoy others.


Now, I don't want to toot my own horn and gloat, but if you guys really think these are good ideas, PM or mail them off to the frontier devs. I don't mind, and I'd be thrilled to know some of my ideas for improvement made it into the game.

So this makes me a pirate bounty hunter, because I have decent standings with pirate factions already from all the assassination missions I do for them? ;-)

 

[Uueerdo]

I'd go as far as saying multiple pirate factions, based off the current criminal organizations. Pirates don't have to work together, maybe Pirate Faction A is having a war with Faction B. Give the pirate factions missions and PvE content, for the exact reason of not needlessly killing.

Now, being a strong proponent of PVP, I'd also like to see something along the lines of a "reverse kill warrant scanner". Pirate style item, you use it to scan a PC, and it gives you a bounty you can turn into pirate factions for credits. Now, flying around with one of those would be highly frowned upon by the civilized portion of the galaxy, and if they see you with one, they're likely to give chase....

I just see it as a good way to build in more player interaction. Our proverbial pirate needs some cash to buy one of those super beam lasers. He takes a mission that says "Go hijack this freighter in lawful space, get the goods, and bring em back here. As he gets into lawful space, Bounty Hunter Jim notices him, gives chase, and interdicts. The pirate scans him with his reverse KWS, and they fight it out!

A second advantage to this, is it gives a chunk of legitimacy to claims of griefing. A guy rolling out from a pirate station, with high criminal factions going on the hunt is a pirate. He has a legit in-game motive for the things he does. If he goes out and shoots up 4-5 PCs before getting run off, well he's doing piratical things, building up his rep, etc. On the other side, if you see some random dude out there with no pirate standings, just yanking ships out of SC and blowing them up for the lulz, you can be a lot more confident in your statement that the guy is just griefing with no motive. A criminal faction is going to have need of hitmen, assassins, terrorists, those types of non-pirate "kill 'em" PVPers. Someone pulling those actions without benefit to a criminal faction isn't playing the game, they're just trying to annoy others.


Now, I don't want to toot my own horn and gloat, but if you guys really think these are good ideas, PM or mail them off to the frontier devs. I don't mind, and I'd be thrilled to know some of my ideas for improvement made it into the game.

I like most of this, but don't think just having pirate standings should legitimize any and all PK-ing. Killing bounty hunters that have been interfering with pirate operations, sure. "Taking a cut" of law abiding traders' cargo, sure. But killing (or even further attacking) traders after they've "paid their dues", not so much. Perhaps for some very rare "terrorist" factions that have few bases, little access to high end equipment, and are hated by pretty much every other faction.

I hate to bring RL into it since it always seems to stir up a hornets nest of unproductive banter but... I highly doubt non-terrorist criminal organizations would treat captured terrorists better than lawful organizations would. Hell, given the extreme nature of most terrorist organizations, they are just as likely to hate each other as much (if not more than) legal organizations and crime "syndicates".

 

[Rivka]

I like most of this, but don't think just having pirate standings should legitimize any and all PK-ing. Killing bounty hunters that have been interfering with pirate operations, sure. "Taking a cut" of law abiding traders' cargo, sure. But killing (or even further attacking) traders after they've "paid their dues", not so much. Perhaps for some very rare "terrorist" factions that have few bases, little access to high end equipment, and are hated by pretty much every other faction.

I hate to bring RL into it since it always seems to stir up a hornets nest of unproductive banter but... I highly doubt non-terrorist criminal organizations would treat captured terrorists better than lawful organizations would. Hell, given the extreme nature of most terrorist organizations, they are just as likely to hate each other as much (if not more than) legal organizations and crime "syndicates".

That'd work out pretty good, actually. Someone who has their heart set on just causing mayhem in a legit way can link up with one of your proposed terrorist factions. They can have awful standings towards everyone else, not very good equipment, but they'd be rewarded for making the world burn. It'd be "legit" mass murder PKing, but on the flipside, the consequences would be pretty dire. Anyone who's NOT working for one of these groups, well...they're just causing grief, and should go into the griefer hell that was discussed awhile back.


Just like you said with the RL comparison...Sure, both the Mafia and ISIS are illegal organizations, but the Mafia wouldn't be out causing terror. Most folks would turn a blind eye to the mafia being nearby (so long as said mafia members weren't bothering them). Now, an ISIS terrorist on the other hand.....

 

[Jaeger]

As I mentioned above, it would be 50,000 Cr. to insure a 1,000,000 Cr. cargo at 5%.

The proposed exploit could be mitigated by insurance self-cancelling on a canister-by-canister basis if they are dropped or abandoned by the ship. Cargo insurance would probably not cover theft either, i.e. by the use of cargo hatch damage or hatch-disruptors. That leaves the cargo insurance to pay out only on those canisters remaining in the ship when it got destroyed.

I understand your previous point about reduction in profit - however cargo insurance reduces financial risk and reduced risk should (probably) reasonably result in lower net profit.

Pay Attention

Cargo insurance - not real world type insurance, a game mechanic.

On ship destruction a percentage of cargo is spilled into space, the rest magically reappears in your new ship (by insurance subspace teleporter module if you need)

The spilled cargo is a boon to the interdictor, and also is the cost of losing the fight to the trader.... no duplication... no messy insurance calculations simply an 20/80 split. Traders don't get financially eviscerated on losing a shipment by ship destruction, pirates get rewarded.

More traders would play in Open because it would be a better game, more people would play in general.

It's a simple elegant solution to all of the problems facing the tragic PvP implementation, and the impending catastrophic flop of Elite: Dangerous; the game that tried too hard to be serious and ended up sucking.

 

[QziQza]

thanks for confirming then that the impact will be really small.

but that measn we really need 2 different profiles for open and solo, making money risk-free then spending it in open, this has a name, it's called cheating

every time someone mentions risk-free money i have to stop and ask where, and then i hear the above argument and go.. ahh right. It is only free of risk from other players, not free of risk.

calling fellow commanders cheats for choosing to play solo and open is a little mean and essentially wrong lol. are they gaining an unfair advantage over other players? no, its an option that all commanders have available. are they knowingly exploiting a bug or game mechanic for personal gain? no, the game has been set up that way and again is a choice that all can make. while it is pure specualtion, i'd wager there are probably more PVE focused players than PVP, and its likely a relativly small number of PVP players that come and trade in solo to gear up, thats not cheating either.. thats common sense lol.

so in considering the above, i'd be really suprised if there was any substantial number of players trading solo with the express aim of maxing out a ship for open play. Aside from the PVP players that trade to gear up, the average Solo player who comes over to open will be 1 of 2 types -

Just want to try it type - not likely going to bring there prized cargo ship over.. no way! a Viper, a Cobra, maybe even an ASP. because unless they are foolhardy or drunk, they arnt going to risk hard earned credits on an unknown, and by unknown, i mean likely to get wrecked! lol

Semi regular want to pewpew - these players will maybe run kitted out Vipers, Cobras or Asps. You will find the very occasional Python amongst them, but in a player base that numbers 300k and climbing they are going to be a relatively tiny group, not many traders be wanting to risk that kind of expense for no good reason *I lightly scraped my python when docking and it cost me just short of 200k.. for a scratch!

Yep traders tend to be pretty canny, when it comes to how much we spend and for what, if it isnt earning for us then its an expense *shivers*

the whole idea of splitting the game into 2 just makes no sense, i mean, who wants to grind credit and rep on 2 seperate commanders? not many folk im thinking! so all we would end up with is, a big rift in the player base, fewer potential players on both sides and a nightmare for the devs. what the game needs is players.. period.. what matters, is that people play, not how they play.

People doing the DC thing, thats a genuine issue, definately defeats the point of playing in open and i can understand the annoyance you guys are feeling over it.. server kicks and interdiction pairing issues are bad enough. As for players doing it on purpose, i really cant see any other reason for it than maybe 'i play and trade in open' bragging rights. without actually commiting to it, now see thats cheating. of the traders ive spoken too, it just isnt something i or they would do, its pretty pointless coming over to try open then not lol.


TL&DR

sorry that turned into a right prattle.. all i really wanted to say was

Splitting the player base by creating a 'Solo OR Open' enviroment, would be bad juju. Not many players will want to grind Cr and Rep on 2 seperate commanders, that type of thing could easily cause irreversible damage to the game and the player base.

In short, we want people choosing to play, not forced into choosing sides.

And yeah, the DC issue is wrong on so many levels, I can understand folks being really annoyed at that, and quite rightly so.. bad enough when its a genuine DC or pairing issue, but folks doing it on purpose.. thats just not cricket.

 

[Xntryk]

Make solo separate? OK. But than you will never see traders or explorers online - only fighters. Why? It's easy - part of traders will go to solo immediately, and the rest will be attacked much more often. Since any intercept is 100% win for fighter and makes no real problem for interceptor at all - trading will be too risky. Even with shields - doesn't matter. So you will never wee traders - even those who will go fly online will search far-away worlds. And all the gameplay will be - make money on beacon, fit your viper/cobra and go shooot other vipers/cobras. That's all.

Wanna see traders - make piracy/killing real dangerous for fighters too. High insurance, high penalties/bounties, security vessels arrived to protect attacked traders, big haul/shields for traders - anything ... but trader attack MUST not be 100% win in 20 seconds with no problem and 5000cr fine in nearest system.

You're wrong,..I've never played in solo, and I never will. I got this game because I thought it was a space MMO with manual flight unlike EVE. The fact that solo and open are linked is ridiculous and will ultimately cost them players. Solo mode? fine... make it off line and let antisocial people with a fear of loss play all by themselves. I've traded online from my original sidewinder up to a Lakon 7... 3 times now... I always get bored of trading and go back to the Asp for some combat.... not always had enough insurance hehe. The grind is boring, but it's really not that hard. So for every "trader" threatening to go to solo if they get PK'd,.. please.... don't wait... go now and stay there. The "live" universe is no place for those that lack intestinal fortitude.... especially because.... It's a game. get it? a past-time. Did you enjoy your time getting up to where you were before you got reckless or unlucky or ...whatever. I'm Sure you did... so actually you have not lost anything.. If you didn't have fun getting to where you were,... then why are you playing? .... btw I've been trying to leave sidewinders with 1-3 % mostly I over do it, but A few have been given a last minute reprieve . Good luck bounty hunters,..there is one CMDR out there trying to build a bounty worth hunting......

 

[Robert Maynard]

Pay Attention

Cargo insurance - not real world type insurance, a game mechanic.

On ship destruction a percentage of cargo is spilled into space, the rest magically reappears in your new ship (by insurance subspace teleporter module if you need)

The spilled cargo is a boon to the interdictor, and also is the cost of losing the fight to the trader.... no duplication... no messy insurance calculations simply an 20/80 split. Traders don't get financially eviscerated on losing a shipment by ship destruction, pirates get rewarded.

More traders would play in Open because it would be a better game, more people would play in general.

It's a simple elegant solution to all of the problems facing the tragic PvP implementation, and the impending catastrophic flop of Elite: Dangerous; the game that tried too hard to be serious and ended up sucking.

If we were talking about RL insurance for cargoes transiting pirate filled waters then I would expect that it would be significantly more than 5% per trip....

Your proposal to introduce random cargo drops on ship destruction would encourage impatient pirates to simply destroy ships for cargo - it has not been implemented yet probably for that reason. Fix the piracy mechanics rather than reward the pirate for going straight to "boom".

Magically appearing rares from 200LY away would be a bit too gamey for me. It would also leave the trader's profit fully intact. Reimbursement for the purchase price of the cargo is all that one could probably expect as an insurance payout.

Rewarding "pirates" for ship destruction is rewarding murder, not piracy - does that make the game better?

Topped off with the (by now very familiar) "if feature X is not changed / removed then the game will die" trope....

 

[Briarée]

Can you imagine the cacophony of crying, if Traders travelled across the Galaxy, only to arrive at their destination (the entire point for them playing) and the Station decided to disappear as soon as they disengaged SC, because the Station changed it's mind and didn't want to trade today, after all!

pretty much this...

and the station will vanish 60% of the time you want to dock

 

[Robert Maynard]

Can you imagine the cacophony of crying, if Traders travelled across the Galaxy, only to arrive at their destination (the entire point for them playing) and the Station decided to disappear as soon as they disengaged SC, because the Station changed it's mind and didn't want to trade today, after all!

This is quite obviously reductio ad absurdum - stations are persistent, indestructible entities.

 

[Snakebite]

You're wrong,..I've never played in solo, and I never will. I got this game because I thought it was a space MMO with manual flight unlike EVE. The fact that solo and open are linked is ridiculous and will ultimately cost them players. Solo mode? fine... make it off line and let antisocial people with a fear of loss play all by themselves. I've traded online from my original sidewinder up to a Lakon 7... 3 times now... I always get bored of trading and go back to the Asp for some combat.... not always had enough insurance hehe. The grind is boring, but it's really not that hard. So for every "trader" threatening to go to solo if they get PK'd,.. please.... don't wait... go now and stay there. The "live" universe is no place for those that lack intestinal fortitude.... especially because.... It's a game. get it? a past-time. Did you enjoy your time getting up to where you were before you got reckless or unlucky or ...whatever. I'm Sure you did... so actually you have not lost anything.. If you didn't have fun getting to where you were,... then why are you playing? .... btw I've been trying to leave sidewinders with 1-3 % mostly I over do it, but A few have been given a last minute reprieve . Good luck bounty hunters,..there is one CMDR out there trying to build a bounty worth hunting......

Good post +1

I too bought this thinking it was a space MMO with actual Space Flight... Spent many happy hours in Classic Elite and FFE and was attracted to the idea of multiplayer.
I've just about given up on bounty hunting as I simply cant find any (player) pirates to hunt, I hear that there are some but I've scanned hundreds of players and not found a bounty between them....

 

[Wolf Starslayer]

Good post +1

I too bought this thinking it was a space MMO with actual Space Flight... Spent many happy hours in Classic Elite and FFE and was attracted to the idea of multiplayer.
I've just about given up on bounty hunting as I simply cant find any (player) pirates to hunt, I hear that there are some but I've scanned hundreds of players and not found a bounty between them....

Yea bountys are too easy to clear, serious ones need to persist for a week or so.

 

[Snakebite]

Yea bountys are too easy to clear, serious ones need to persist for a week or so.

Yes absolutely, we all know that there are *lots* of things that need tweaking in this game,
To me its clear that making the criminal record and bounty's more persistent is critical to solving several game play issues.

 

[c00ltuga]

I never used Quick-Disc for runing from a conflict, but it sure hurts when you get your THR killed and you have to self destruct and loose a full load of rares... only to see other player get 400cr Bounty.
Fines and bountys should be reviewed and bring true value to good pirates!!
Everyone that doesn't enjoy the Human experience... should then go solo.

 

[graham.reeds]

Good post +1

I too bought this thinking it was a space MMO with actual Space Flight... Spent many happy hours in Classic Elite and FFE and was attracted to the idea of multiplayer.
I've just about given up on bounty hunting as I simply cant find any (player) pirates to hunt, I hear that there are some but I've scanned hundreds of players and not found a bounty between them....

Go to Lave/Leesti. There are a few out the I keep getting interdicted by.

 

[DarkWalker]

Just like you said with the RL comparison...Sure, both the Mafia and ISIS are illegal organizations, but the Mafia wouldn't be out causing terror. Most folks would turn a blind eye to the mafia being nearby (so long as said mafia members weren't bothering them). Now, an ISIS terrorist on the other hand.....

Not just that. Organized crime tends to fight any criminal activity they aren't involved with within the areas they control, and to put limits to what members can do. The last thing they want is to bring increased police response to the area they control, and one of their tools is to minimize the disruption they cause as much as can be done without reducing the money they get.

(Which brings an interesting concept. Pirating in a system without paying your respects to the local pirate faction should bring heat both from the law and from the local pirates, who would really hate getting the extra heat without a cut of the profits.)

 

[Snakebite]

Go to Lave/Leesti. There are a few out the I keep getting interdicted by.

I've heard this said so many times, and i've spent hours patrolling Lave and Leesti scanning everyone in range, i've yet to find anyone with a bounty !
So whilst the pirates may be there, they are either very good at hiding from bounty hunters or exploiting the 'clear criminal record' bug. (actually I don't think its a bug but a design flaw).

 

[tdquasar]

This is not a bug or exploit. This is how the game is designed. If Frontier will think this feature requires changes they will surely change the game mechanics.

 

[Continium]

The thing is, by playing in open, you are affecting our game.

"Logging off to protect your assets" is basically cheating. You're circumventing a core game mechanic (death) via a method not included in the game.

It is repeatedly stated that using 'game mechanics' (whether or not it affects another person) by the likes of 'goonswarm' is a totally legimate action. They have used this excuse to 'camp' and 'suicide' kill players at lave - an NOTHING has (thus far) been done about it.

What is good for the goose is good for the gander. If some players want to hide behind 'game mechanics' then the 'game mechanics' need to be changed by FD - it is no good complaining to the players for 'giving as good as they get'.