I'm a Vetinaris if that counts and I can say that we agree, its a stupid argument, thats why nobody is making it in this thread except people when they make it just to knock it down.
Is it really going to be 40 million an hour?
- Thread starter CMDR Karrde Sun
- Start date
I'm a Vetinaris if that counts and I can say that we agree, its a stupid argument, thats why nobody is making it in this thread except people when they make it just to knock it down.
The isn't and never has been a challenge in ED unless you metaphorically tie one hand behind your back. Everything can be made as easy or difficult as you want it to be
Thats funny because inversely Elite Dangeorus becoming an unballanced instant gratification mess filled with cheating and exploits, was ultimately responsible for me falling out of love with this game.
I celebrate Frontier fixing their game.
Hopefully Frontier go much deeper into game rebalance and finally put their foot down on exploiters and cheats.
No, are you kidding? Hell no.
Rockforth was an exploit of a commodity market bug.
You could buy the commodity from the market at price and sell it back, to the very same market, with a heathy markup.
Basically, with a Cutter filled with cargo racks you could get more than a billion per hour without leaving the commodity market screen.
FD corrected the bug then proceeded to remove all the ill-gained credits. But with a twist.
There were reports from people claiming FD removed more credits than what they gained.
Which looked very similar to the complains from people that forgot the SLF crew is taking a part from all Income
I mean you got 1bn from the exploit, slf crew take 10%, you get 900 millions. FD removed the ill gained credits, that is 1 Billion
Now if one exploited 10 billions... or had 3 Elite SLF Crews
Now, i do hope you are not really comparing mining with the Rockforth exploit
I disagree. I played EVE and its economy was several peoples full time job and was still a mess because EVE has the same money out of thin air mechanics as every game.
Elite's simulated economy is better.
Seriously, a blue screen? Are you running Windows 95?
The problems you list are you problems. You have a different vision for the game than the devs do. May also be you are playing on a potato.
The games money is totally opt in. You don't need to make any money at all while playing. Even the stuff that accumulates passively doesn't convert to money until you dock and exchange the vouchers.
You can earn as slowly as you choose.
Yeah sure, with 2.5 billion 1 fully fit Corvette will be 1/3 of your cash. Thats not nothing.
If you want to go back to poor though, you have that option. You can wipe your character at any time. You are also free to buy and fit the above mentioned corvette, then blow it up and don't take the insurance. A couple repetitions of that will end your coupla billion.
No one is stopping you from having your game. You don't need to mine painite or stack missions.
You are your problem.
I've been in organized wing fights. They don't have to go all the way to the rebuy screen. Simply agree that rebuys are optional and anyone who stows hardpoints is out of the fight and left alone.
I currently sit at 8 ships and 368m credits. If FDev did a hard nerf on all earnings, I would still be happy. If I lost my Python and had to make a serious decision whether it was worth the rebuy to get it back, or cut my losses and fly a smaller ship, I would be happy.
As it stands, I don't worry about losing anything, simply because I can make that money back in a matter of minutes. There is no reason to not turn around and fight the pirate Anaconda trying to get me to dump cargo. There is no reason to actively avoid getting ganked (unless you spent weeks/months exploring).
The whole game has become CR/hr...made worse by FCs.
FDev should nerf earnings, but they should also add something deeper to the available ways to make money. Give me a stretch of salvage missions that unfold some small story. Or how about a search & rescue mission that takes me through several systems looking for survivors? I just killed 20 pirates in this system...let them put a hit contract on me and actively hunt me.
The game needs depth, not endless credits.
For an MMO, like Elite is (almost), there needs to be balance and moderated progression. Simply put player actions affect the galaxy, and thus create the game play. Case in point, were any of the recent previous CG's just a "mission" in a normal offline game, I'd have ROFL stomped them for my emperor, but when we imperials were outnumbered ~1.5:1 that was never going to happen. Even more so when a good few imperial players seen we were indisputably getting steamrollered and moved onto other things. But even those "defeats" brought life to the galaxy, the Empire was stopped in its pursuit of NLMA, who were then awarded federal citizenship, in thanks for which they then blew up a federal starport. None of that would have happened had I solo'd the "mission" instead of "losing the CG".
Without this sort of intrigue and evolving narrative, Elite offline solo game would be effectively "Freelancer 2", with a campaign and a play through time. With such narrative and intrigue the game has a much longer lasting appeal, which is why many players have playtime in the thousands of hours. Running concruuently with the background narrative is the players progression, their "personal narrative" if you will, and managing that is a trickier proposition than managing the main plot. On onehand the game must designed to present a challenge to offer the player a sense of accomplishment, yet on the other it must feel "doable" and not an appear to be an insurmountable obstacle course that the player can never make any headway on. And in its delivery of progression it must tread the line between the "go on youtube to find the most busted thing and abuse the frack out of it" grinder mentality and the more immersive "this is the galaxy, in which I can do many things, I prefer doing X Y & Z, so that's what I'll do even though it might not be the fastest way to get to my goals". One set of players will grind the same activity for 50hrs straight, bemoan "the grind" and declare they "won" the game when they have shortcutted to the big shiny at the end of their grind. The other set of players will plod on not getting as rapid progression as the grinders, but probably having more fun in the process. Guess who is going to be playing the game for longer? Clue - If a greyhound ever catches the rabbit, it reputedly never races again.
So, it was five years ago that Frontier last released a paid for version / update to this game, yet there has been a swathe of updates released in this time. Yes, many of those patches were paid for in advance as part of the "Horizons" season pass, that season spanned two years, although it was originally planned for one year, so what funded the ensuing three years of free updates? Microtransactions. Which customer is more likely to spend money on microtransactions, the one who spanks a game in a couple of weeks by grinding their way down a very narrow and extremely repetitive path to the end game content, or the one who fully immerses themself in the game and does so over a few years totalling thousands of hours of play time? So, commercially, for the last few years at least, the game is almost a F2P, funded by microtransactions, as such it needs its players to stick around for more than a couple of weeks playthrough. On the flip side of that, by sticking around for more than a couple of weeks playthrough grinding the current meta, players see more content getting added to the game, and they actually get more value out of their purchase. It might be a bit chicken and egg, or a mutually dependent relationship, but the game's development benefits from player retention, and retained players benefit from ongoing development.
OK, so y'all have told me about F2P business 101 now, what's that got to do with millions per hour? Well, if the game is structured such that you can earn 200m/hr, and a well optioned carrier is 6billion, plus a fleet of ships to fill it with being another 4 billion, you've got 50hrs before you've "completed" the game, and y'all be like been there, done that, moved on. With that sort of reward structure, you could comfortably go from sidey to fleet and carrier and move onto another game in less time than a community goal runs for. Or you could take a few months to amass that 4billion credit fleet, and see the outcome of numerous community goals, influence some of them, get embroiled in the rich tapestry this galaxy is capable of weaving. The parameter to moderate the speed of progression from side to fleet + carrier is the credits per hour.
OK boomer you've sed enuff, can I haz my millions, or ur millions, just gimme millions? Err... No. Why not? Remember at the start I was going on about how there was next to nothing I could do to prevent the inevitability of the empire getting spanked at the recent CG's? That shows that your game is my game, an what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. In the case of millions per hour, it makes the difference of the credits in my bank meaning something or not. For you to get 200m/hr, because our games are intertwined, I am also able to get 200m/hr. So if I know there's 200m/hr out there to be had, I'm not going to worry about eating a 21m rebuy at a CG, or paying off a 50m bounty from blockading the other side of that CG. And while this sounds like fun, after 20hrs playing the trade and combat aspect of the CG, the 100m cr "reward" is going to look paultry, why bother, I could just have just shot rocks for half an hour. But that's you problem not mine...Well actually, it's both our problem. Many aspects of the game are underutilized because of the nonsense economics. I used to powerplay, was a Level 5 combat pilot for ALD, maintaining that rank required ~182 kills per week, every week, for 50m a week. Say 15hrs a week on patrol, often with buddies, ganking NPC's with the odd bit of PvP, all good grins and giggles. Powerplay nowadays? #tumbleweed - AX combat similar, the most intricately developed part of the game amounts to a 40 minute "boss battle", in which you gamble the rebuy cost of your ship against two to fifteen million, and to give yourself a chance at this you need togrind gather materials to synthesize ammo on the fly as the most effective weapons don't have the ammo capacity to win that fight. Or you could go shoot rocks.
How does my money farming stop you playing other aspects of the game? It doesn't directly stop me playing other aspects of the game, but it does taint many aspects of my game. For example, if all the people focussed on ganking ateroids for credits were to engage in powerplay, it would be a hotbed of activity and the ton of fun @Rubbernuke dreams of it one day being reinstated to. Or if those people hit the CG's instead of ~3,500 participants there might be 10,000 with a lot more emergent content, more people to gank, or protect from being ganked, groups of haulers emerging to deliver commodities in convoys for mutual protection etc... Does that not sound more fun than shooting rocks or grinding other money-metas?
So... Tell me about your game then? I shoot asteroids for loads of money like the man in the youtube video showed us. And what are you saving that money for? A new, bigger and betterer, ship. And what are you going to do with that ship? Shoot more asteroids for more money. And lemme guess, bigger ship, more asteroids, more money? Yup. A'ight pal, you have fun with that, I'm away to try and overthrow a democracy, or blockade a community goal to thwart the evil federation, or maybe chillax doing some xeno archaeology... Smebbes top it all off by honing through some canyons with flight assist off, that's always good for a giggle with some beer and VR. o/
Without this sort of intrigue and evolving narrative, Elite offline solo game would be effectively "Freelancer 2", with a campaign and a play through time. With such narrative and intrigue the game has a much longer lasting appeal, which is why many players have playtime in the thousands of hours. Running concruuently with the background narrative is the players progression, their "personal narrative" if you will, and managing that is a trickier proposition than managing the main plot. On onehand the game must designed to present a challenge to offer the player a sense of accomplishment, yet on the other it must feel "doable" and not an appear to be an insurmountable obstacle course that the player can never make any headway on. And in its delivery of progression it must tread the line between the "go on youtube to find the most busted thing and abuse the frack out of it" grinder mentality and the more immersive "this is the galaxy, in which I can do many things, I prefer doing X Y & Z, so that's what I'll do even though it might not be the fastest way to get to my goals". One set of players will grind the same activity for 50hrs straight, bemoan "the grind" and declare they "won" the game when they have shortcutted to the big shiny at the end of their grind. The other set of players will plod on not getting as rapid progression as the grinders, but probably having more fun in the process. Guess who is going to be playing the game for longer? Clue - If a greyhound ever catches the rabbit, it reputedly never races again.
So, it was five years ago that Frontier last released a paid for version / update to this game, yet there has been a swathe of updates released in this time. Yes, many of those patches were paid for in advance as part of the "Horizons" season pass, that season spanned two years, although it was originally planned for one year, so what funded the ensuing three years of free updates? Microtransactions. Which customer is more likely to spend money on microtransactions, the one who spanks a game in a couple of weeks by grinding their way down a very narrow and extremely repetitive path to the end game content, or the one who fully immerses themself in the game and does so over a few years totalling thousands of hours of play time? So, commercially, for the last few years at least, the game is almost a F2P, funded by microtransactions, as such it needs its players to stick around for more than a couple of weeks playthrough. On the flip side of that, by sticking around for more than a couple of weeks playthrough grinding the current meta, players see more content getting added to the game, and they actually get more value out of their purchase. It might be a bit chicken and egg, or a mutually dependent relationship, but the game's development benefits from player retention, and retained players benefit from ongoing development.
OK, so y'all have told me about F2P business 101 now, what's that got to do with millions per hour? Well, if the game is structured such that you can earn 200m/hr, and a well optioned carrier is 6billion, plus a fleet of ships to fill it with being another 4 billion, you've got 50hrs before you've "completed" the game, and y'all be like been there, done that, moved on. With that sort of reward structure, you could comfortably go from sidey to fleet and carrier and move onto another game in less time than a community goal runs for. Or you could take a few months to amass that 4billion credit fleet, and see the outcome of numerous community goals, influence some of them, get embroiled in the rich tapestry this galaxy is capable of weaving. The parameter to moderate the speed of progression from side to fleet + carrier is the credits per hour.
OK boomer you've sed enuff, can I haz my millions, or ur millions, just gimme millions? Err... No. Why not? Remember at the start I was going on about how there was next to nothing I could do to prevent the inevitability of the empire getting spanked at the recent CG's? That shows that your game is my game, an what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. In the case of millions per hour, it makes the difference of the credits in my bank meaning something or not. For you to get 200m/hr, because our games are intertwined, I am also able to get 200m/hr. So if I know there's 200m/hr out there to be had, I'm not going to worry about eating a 21m rebuy at a CG, or paying off a 50m bounty from blockading the other side of that CG. And while this sounds like fun, after 20hrs playing the trade and combat aspect of the CG, the 100m cr "reward" is going to look paultry, why bother, I could just have just shot rocks for half an hour. But that's you problem not mine...Well actually, it's both our problem. Many aspects of the game are underutilized because of the nonsense economics. I used to powerplay, was a Level 5 combat pilot for ALD, maintaining that rank required ~182 kills per week, every week, for 50m a week. Say 15hrs a week on patrol, often with buddies, ganking NPC's with the odd bit of PvP, all good grins and giggles. Powerplay nowadays? #tumbleweed - AX combat similar, the most intricately developed part of the game amounts to a 40 minute "boss battle", in which you gamble the rebuy cost of your ship against two to fifteen million, and to give yourself a chance at this you need to
How does my money farming stop you playing other aspects of the game? It doesn't directly stop me playing other aspects of the game, but it does taint many aspects of my game. For example, if all the people focussed on ganking ateroids for credits were to engage in powerplay, it would be a hotbed of activity and the ton of fun @Rubbernuke dreams of it one day being reinstated to. Or if those people hit the CG's instead of ~3,500 participants there might be 10,000 with a lot more emergent content, more people to gank, or protect from being ganked, groups of haulers emerging to deliver commodities in convoys for mutual protection etc... Does that not sound more fun than shooting rocks or grinding other money-metas?
So... Tell me about your game then? I shoot asteroids for loads of money like the man in the youtube video showed us. And what are you saving that money for? A new, bigger and betterer, ship. And what are you going to do with that ship? Shoot more asteroids for more money. And lemme guess, bigger ship, more asteroids, more money? Yup. A'ight pal, you have fun with that, I'm away to try and overthrow a democracy, or blockade a community goal to thwart the evil federation, or maybe chillax doing some xeno archaeology... Smebbes top it all off by honing through some canyons with flight assist off, that's always good for a giggle with some beer and VR. o/
Because you are synonymous with powerplay, and I suggested if we could coax people away from shooting rocks or milking other meta's a whole swathe of new players could add a whole lot more dynamicism into powerplay.
But I am oh so very glad I made your eyes explode, that's payback for some of your unholier memes. Only eleventeen more eyebursting retributions to balance your five years of meme terror, mwohaahaahaa!
I found the summons eventually (via braille)
But I agree.Oh its on now. There are seven more cats to do- have you seen the latest?
Goddamnit!!!I found the summons eventually (via braille)
Oh its on now. There are seven more cats to do- have you seen the latest?
View attachment 197315
You said this:No, are you kidding? Hell no.
Rockforth was an exploit of a commodity market bug.
You could buy the commodity from the market at price and sell it back, to the very same market, with a heathy markup.
Basically, with a Cutter filled with cargo racks you could get more than a billion per hour without leaving the commodity market screen.
FD corrected the bug then proceeded to remove all the ill-gained credits. But with a twist.
There were reports from people claiming FD removed more credits than what they gained.
Which looked very similar to the complains from people that forgot the SLF crew is taking a part from all Income
I mean you got 1bn from the exploit, slf crew take 10%, you get 900 millions. FD removed the ill gained credits, that is 1 Billion
Now if one exploited 10 billions... or had 3 Elite SLF Crews
Now, i do hope you are not really comparing mining with the Rockforth exploit
I'm not comparing mining to the Rockforth exploit. I'm saying if it's "so bizzare" for me to care about mining incomes being (previously) unbalanced, then it must be bizzare for anyone to have cared about the Rockforth exploit, since both are simply a case of being able to achieve an unreasonably high income.
More broadly, you're really just trying to stick me with being fussed about incomes at all. So, so what if someone earned a billion credits an hour from that exploit?
"Just ignore that and blaze your own trail right?"
"There needs to be some mechanic for people to catch up!"
"Who cares how much another player earns? It doesn't impact your game."
- Courtesy of everyone who's ever defended mining incomes.
Ignoring your comment for a second, and I continue to be fussed about incomes, if Rockforth was an exploit that earned you 1 credit per tonne, rather than the (17k?) credits per tonne the actual exploit made, I probably couldn't have cared less about it. But because it spun money so fast, it definitely needed to be removed.
That was the problem with Rockforth fertiliser. It could spin a billion credits an hour with it, which is well in excess of what the actual game mechanics provided. Thing is... there's a host of comparable mechanics in the game. Nobody cares about them though... why? Because they don't really have a significant effect and spin far less credits, influence or whatever your poison is than you could otherwise earn from normal activity.
So, Rockforth's issue was it's billion-credit an hour income... but it sounds like you're also saying to me if mining earned a billion credits an hour right now, that would be fine, because "It's the intended mechanic"? That's ridiculous. Like I said before, I can't avoid earning 35m+ on a 180t gold delivery, but make no mistake about it, unless FD intend to up ship costs by an order of magnitude, that should definitely get nixed in favour of paying out primarily per tonne hauled, rather than the value of the goods.
The Rockforth exploit was using an error in the game to earn a rapid advantage. An unbalanced mechanic is using the intended mechanics, but it allows you to gain a rapid advantage compared to any other game mechanic. Both need to be dealt with, because regardless of whether it's an exploit or an intended mechanic, an unreasonably high income is an unreasonably high income.
tl;dr Yes, Rockforth was an exploit and needed to be removed, because of the ridiculous amount of credits it spun. But you cannot expect me to "care" about that but turn a blind eye when a single[1] gameplay activity equally earns a ridiculous amount of credits, unless this/metal delivery missions is now FD's "New normal", in which case FD have a lot of work ahead of them.
[1] I say single, but really there's also massacre stacking, to consider pre-balance incomes.
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Just for the record: more people would play PP only if it wasn't stripped placeholder poo poo it is now. Even if more people would play it, it wouldn't make it better, you know?
And with CG. Seriously... almost every CG is either kill few millions of NPC ships or haul few billions of some garbo. Nobody would ever touch it, if it wasn't for rewards. How shoving more people into that slog would make it any better? That said, I'm really grateful that FD made rewards for 75%, because doing it past 50% may seriously impact ones sanity.
Last night i was grinding in the 180t Python, stopped off and did a mission for the mats it gave. Dropped it off and from that station was given a 35 mil drop off for 180t of gold..what?..is this the buff? Took that and a few more near 10 mill from same station, stacked them up and went offline. Completed them today and jumped to another station that did a drop off for 120t at 20.5 mill....hmmmmmm took them all and made £140 mill ish in a few casual hours.
I concur
Just in case it gets lost in the wash of regrettable posts.. i think one of the keen points from this thread is that even the more hardline nerfers find 40 million an acceptable value.
That's nice because 40 million is well into easy mode.
I think 40 million as the end game after progression would be very satisfying.
That's nice because 40 million is well into easy mode.
I think 40 million as the end game after progression would be very satisfying.
Im beginning to realize that many if the people that want more nerfs dont want an open world sandbox game, they want a Roguelike.
And thats never going to happen.
Its a shame there are so few space based Roguelikes too. Off the top of my head Endless Space is the only recent one I can think of.
And thats never going to happen.
Its a shame there are so few space based Roguelikes too. Off the top of my head Endless Space is the only recent one I can think of.
This reply is what we call a "strawman" and is a very weak, pathetic reply.
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FD are trying to sell elite to so many different gamer demographics I am not even sure the developers all agree which way they want the game to go....... Personally I don't want elite to be a rogue like OR a pure sandbox.
I don't want it to be a generic MMO either.
I guess if I had to say what I want it would be a roleplaying swashbuckling space adventure about a rags to riches pilot who wants a life of adventure and exploration.
Which ultimately means I would like a solid background and economy sim, RPG like elements with npcs which actually you can have meaning ful interactions with (training crew etc). I want to explore and I want to be able to find cool stuff the explore sometimes with rare and unusual stuff.
I don't expect a complete handcrafted narrative experience but some smaller narrative parts would be nice (the tutorial is great as was the leaked fmv video of a mission giver)
I definitely DONT want everything handed to me on a plate m, and I want to be able to earn stuff at my own pace without feeling forced to do a certain meta at a certain time due to FOMO.
And the potential to do this with mates would be the cherry on the cake.
But back to topic. The notion that 40 million an HR is not enough is imo ludicrous . That is earning an anaconda in 3 hrs, and earning the rebuy for a fully decked out anaconda in 30 mins.
I mean come on... How can that not be enough?
I think 60 would be better but Im going to grind to get what I want regardless ao Shrugs