Jitter on Fixed Weapons

[BostromNZ]

It doesn't make any sense and seriously undermines the value of rapidfire mods. For turreted/gimballed weapons add more jitter sure but if I'm using fixed weapons I am already disadvantaged enough when it comes to trying to hit modules (or the ship... or a barn door). I choose fixed because I like the skill element of using them, generally on smaller ships, and being rewarded with increased damage, less heat etc.

I just don't think that removing the jitter will somehow unbalance the game, most people are going to go with overcharged at the moment anyway, but it will improve the gameplay experience and immersion - why is my fixed aka bolted down cannon waivering about the place like it's about to fall off??!!

 

[Cmdr Esteban]

Can we talk about this again?

It doesn't make any sense and seriously undermines the value of rapidfire mods. For turreted/gimballed weapons add more jitter sure but if I'm using fixed weapons I am already disadvantaged enough when it comes to trying to hit modules (or the ship... or a barn door). I choose fixed because I like the skill element of using them, generally on smaller ships, and being rewarded with increased damage, less heat etc.

I just don't think that removing the jitter will somehow unbalance the game, most people are going to go with overcharged at the moment anyway, but it will improve the gameplay experience and immersion - why is my fixed aka bolted down cannon waivering about the place like it's about to fall off??!!

Agreed. Any modification that introduces even the slightest jitter I don't bother with.

 

[Morbad]

It doesn't make any sense and seriously undermines the value of rapidfire mods. For turreted/gimballed weapons add more jitter sure but if I'm using fixed weapons I am already disadvantaged enough when it comes to trying to hit modules (or the ship... or a barn door). I choose fixed because I like the skill element of using them, generally on smaller ships, and being rewarded with increased damage, less heat etc.

I just don't think that removing the jitter will somehow unbalance the game, most people are going to go with overcharged at the moment anyway

Rapid fire mods with no jitter would outclass overcharged in most all ways, except total damage for a given pool of ammo.

why is my fixed aka bolted down cannon waivering about the place like it's about to fall off??!!

It's supposed to represent a loss of accuracy, it's just depicted oddly. There isn't anything implausible about a fixed weapon being less than perfectly accurate.

 

[BostromNZ]

Rapid fire mods with no jitter would outclass overcharged in most all ways, except total damage for a given pool of ammo.

It's supposed to represent a loss of accuracy, it's just depicted oddly. There isn't anything implausible about a fixed weapon being less than perfectly accurate.

Then lower the ROF slightly to balance it.

It's depicted in a frustrating way. FPSs have a slight wobble that can be mitigated in most (good) games by things such as looking down sights, holding your breath, crouching or laying prone, or a combination. In those situations at least the wobble is believable because you're holding the gun, you are not a solid platform and then the game gives you mechanics to overcome the wobble so you can do something about it.

If it really is meant to depict innaccuracy then keep the crosshair steady and simply lowre the accuracy of the weapon to hit the crosshair. Same result but less frustrating as at least you can line your shots up without the crosshair wobbling all over the place and there's nothing you can do about it. Even then I would propose that the jitter is reduced considerably on fixed weapons.

 

[Madrax573]

After working on weapons on aircraft there is no such thing as a weapon without some Jitter.

Engineering tolerances have that automatically part of the system. In this respect an increase in jitter is perfectly inline with expectations on fixed weapons and you are increasing ROF with in turn increase recoil etc. Even on a fixed mount the weapon will shake and judder about.

 

[Morbad]

Even on a fixed mount the weapon will shake and judder about.

The complaint Bostrom has is with the weapon (and it's aim point) wobbling by itself even without recoil, even when it's not firing, which does look off.

It would be nice if there were separate tracking wobble, recoil effects, and accuracy...but the game doesn't seem to have provisions for them, so it's all rolled into one.

 

[Madrax573]

The complaint Bostrom has is with the weapon (and it's aim point) wobbling by itself even without recoil, even when it's not firing, which does look off.

It would be nice if there were separate tracking wobble, recoil effects, and accuracy...but the game doesn't seem to have provisions for them, so it's all rolled into one.

I read his complain as to why it even has jitter at all. not just the aim point wavering around.

But even so the aim point argument can go both ways. If you have a fixed static aim point but your weapons scatters from it you'll just get people complaining that 'my weapons can't hit the side of a barn!' etc.

For me I'd much rather have a dynamic aim point so that I know where I'm firing as soon as I pull the trigger rather than pull the trigger and hope it hits where I'm aiming. Also don't forget that fixed weapons do has some small gimbal in them as well so 'fixed' doesn't mean completely immobile.

 

[Sooden]

It doesn't make any sense and seriously undermines the value of rapidfire mods. For turreted/gimballed weapons add more jitter sure but if I'm using fixed weapons I am already disadvantaged enough when it comes to trying to hit modules (or the ship... or a barn door). I choose fixed because I like the skill element of using them, generally on smaller ships, and being rewarded with increased damage, less heat etc.

I just don't think that removing the jitter will somehow unbalance the game, most people are going to go with overcharged at the moment anyway, but it will improve the gameplay experience and immersion - why is my fixed aka bolted down cannon waivering about the place like it's about to fall off??!!

i was happy rapid fire added some jitter, but that was for my NPC using my ship, giving them a better chance to hit the high ranked ships i come across, when the NPC i lower rank.

But, if we need to give it validation, think of it this way. Its reverberation (kinda), the weapons recoil, even with energy weapons, becomes out of phase with , what it was design for. (yes an energy weapons would have some recoil i think, all that E=mc² jazz.)

basically what Madrax573 said.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Ha! Fixed weapon users! Try adding jitter to gimballed weapons! You can't hit the backside of a cow at point blank range with them.

 

[thirstyfish]

Also consider the micro gimballing. even fixed weapons will move a bit on their own to adjust for target range. The F-86 Sabre had this on its guns back in Korea. Funny thing calleld Gun harmonization, convergence cone, convergence pattern/point, or boresight point. Basically, its the point where all of your guns will shoot at. The RAF took a shotgun pattern during WWII on their fighters to make engaging easier. If you have your guns converge on one point, then you need to be at that distance from the target. No farther, no closer. And in a dogfight, no one has time for that. The USAF got around this with the F-86. Its 6 guns would adjust themselves inside the plane based on the distance to a target in front of the aircraft as measured by radar. I assume our fixed weapons have something similar. So the jitter is being introduced into the software and/or hardware that is controlling your weapon's convergence cone.

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i was happy rapid fire added some jitter, but that was for my NPC using my ship, giving them a better chance to hit the high ranked ships i come across, when the NPC i lower rank.

But, if we need to give it validation, think of it this way. Its reverberation (kinda), the weapons recoil, even with energy weapons, becomes out of phase with , what it was design for. (yes an energy weapons would have some recoil i think, all that E=mc² jazz.)

basically what Madrax573 said.

No. Our lasers work via photons. and the full equation is E=sqrt(m^2 c^4 + p^2 c^4). E=mc^2 is a simplification for the objects and energy we most often encounter. Photons don't have mass. They can act like they do, but they don't. For photons you want the second half of the equation and ditch the first half. So no recoil on energy weapons. Look to my answer for something that makes sense regardless of weapon type.

 

[Morbad]

For me I'd much rather have a dynamic aim point so that I know where I'm firing as soon as I pull the trigger rather than pull the trigger and hope it hits where I'm aiming.

Ideally, I'd rather it make sense.

An inaccurate weapon system putting a shot somewhere other than precisely where it was aimed is considerably more likely than the weapon aiming itself at random deflections and hitting exactly where it happens to be aiming.

 

[Sooden]

Also consider the micro gimballing. even fixed weapons will move a bit on their own to adjust for target range. The F-86 Sabre had this on its guns back in Korea. Funny thing calleld Gun harmonization, convergence cone, convergence pattern/point, or boresight point. Basically, its the point where all of your guns will shoot at. The RAF took a shotgun pattern during WWII on their fighters to make engaging easier. If you have your guns converge on one point, then you need to be at that distance from the target. No farther, no closer. And in a dogfight, no one has time for that. The USAF got around this with the F-86. Its 6 guns would adjust themselves inside the plane based on the distance to a target in front of the aircraft as measured by radar. I assume our fixed weapons have something similar. So the jitter is being introduced into the software and/or hardware that is controlling your weapon's convergence cone.

- - - Updated - - -



No. Our lasers work via photons. and the full equation is E=sqrt(m^2 c^4 + p^2 c^4). E=mc^2 is a simplification for the objects and energy we most often encounter. Photons don't have mass. They can act like they do, but they don't. For photons you want the second half of the equation and ditch the first half. So no recoil on energy weapons. Look to my answer for something that makes sense regardless of weapon type.

oh well.. i thought it's like photon pressure, and that the extended/correct equation was including relativistic mass.
not something i wanna get back into looking up my self, so i don't know.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkiCPMjpysc

just wanted to keep it simple but if i'm wrong, i'm wrong.

 

[Ozram]

After working on weapons on aircraft there is no such thing as a weapon without some Jitter.

Engineering tolerances have that automatically part of the system. In this respect an increase in jitter is perfectly inline with expectations on fixed weapons and you are increasing ROF with in turn increase recoil etc. Even on a fixed mount the weapon will shake and judder about.

Yes... those lasers have some serious recoil.







Jokes aside I know what you're getting at.

 

[Madrax573]

Yes... those lasers have some serious recoil.







Jokes aside I know what you're getting at.

Weeeelllll actually...

Having also worked on some laser devices there is a scatter effect based on rapid pulses through the various crystals etc. The effect is magnified by the speed of the pulses and the power of the laser so the effect is similar to jitter but by a completely different mechanism.

 

[Ozram]

Weeeelllll actually...

Having also worked on some laser devices there is a scatter effect based on rapid pulses through the various crystals etc. The effect is magnified by the speed of the pulses and the power of the laser so the effect is similar to jitter but by a completely different mechanism.

I don't believe that's true in the way you are suggesting.

 

[BostromNZ]

Ideally, I'd rather it make sense.

An inaccurate weapon system putting a shot somewhere other than precisely where it was aimed is considerably more likely than the weapon aiming itself at random deflections and hitting exactly where it happens to be aiming.

Exactly! Accuracy is a fairly common attribute in games but it doesn't mean the crosshair is dancing across the screen.

 

[Bazziegamer]

I quite liked my rapidfire gimballed MCs. They did a crapload of damage.

 

[Ozram]

I quite liked my rapidfire gimballed MCs. They did a crapload of damage.

Yes, rapid fire on multicannons has a decent punch. Ammo runs out fast without serious trigger discipline though.

 

[sb413197]

It ly under - why is my fixed aka bolted down cannon waivering about the place like it's about to fall off??!!

Fixed weapons are actually just a more primitive gimbal - they still adjust a bit for targeting. Particularly noticeable at long range.

But yeah jitter makes a weapon useless IMO, fixed or not. Can't handle that.

 

[shadragon]

It doesn't make any sense and seriously undermines the value of rapidfire mods.

It makes perfect sense. A machine gun is less accurate than a sniper weapon. If you want to put many rounds downrange rapidly, there's a price to be paid in accuracy. All positives need to be offset by negatives, otherwise everyone will have the same loadout.

You effectively just want to eat cakes all day and not get fat.